Emp???? Myth or facts

4370 Views 21 Replies 17 Participants Last post by snowdog650, Jun 29, 2011

12vman

Discussion Starter · Jun 24, 2011

just got done reading One Second After and had some questions regarding the susceptibility of certain items mentioned in the fictional book. I have a hard time believing that ALL the items the book said would go down actually would go down.

My own research doesnt really gel to well w/ what the book said could/would happen.In fact I cant find any referenced sources that fully or even partially agree w/ the book.

Does anybody have any good sources for more info?

Thanks

btw i searched for EMP info on this board and found 0......???????

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Sprig

· #2 · Jun 24, 2011

12vman said:
...

Does anybody have any good sources for more info?...

Well, I work in unique industry. There is a pretty dang smart guy who works as an engineer there. His background in transformers and magnetism is impressive.

Anytime I ask about EMP I get non-answers. Well, they are answers, but they are very complicated answers.

Personally, I am beginning to think that the US Gov is acting like Brear Rabbit, "Oh PLEASE please, whatever you do... Do NOT throw me into that brier patch!"

I do have some concern that portions of the power grid might have failures. I am tending to think more and more that small portable electronics should be fine.

Mule Skinner

· #3 · Jun 24, 2011

I've read a lot of conflicting stuff, including various threads here. One of the major conundrums has to do with length of the conductors on which voltages/currents are induced. some say any length, while others emphasize long lengths. It would be worthwhile to have some definitive information on this since vehicles only have short conductors and therefore may be OK if only long lines are vulnerable.

Another conundrum has to do with blocking the pulse. A completely sealed metal container should do it. But what about a screen? Well, wavelengths less than the size of the mesh openings would get through. OK, fair enough, but doesn't that also mean that a large portion of the total energy is blocked?

goose3

· #4 · Jun 24, 2011

Here are the important facts (IMO):

1. When the Soviets tested one of these things back during the cold war, it burned out stuff for hundreds of miles.

2. We're much more delicate in our elecronics today than we were then.

3. Some things might not be susceptible.

4. Until and unless an EMP is detonated in today's world, you will not know for sure what will survive and what will not.

5. Thus, you protect what you think might be susceptible to EMP and which it will be important to have survive such an event.

6. One has to decide whether to err on the side of caution or to take some risks. How risky? You'll have to decide.

7. I have a lot of stuff in a Faraday cage. I'm working on one for my generator. I think the threat is there, and its probability is nontrivial.

Nobody can say with authority what will happen; you have to know how strong an EMP weapon is, where it's detonated, how high in the atmosphere, and other conditions that may obtain. It's possible some things may survive as they may be in a place that affords protection, or protected by something like a metal awning, or underground, or...whatever.

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BuellerBueller

· #5 · Jun 24, 2011

Naturally occurring EMPs (solar storms) are a hit and miss proposition.
So are the ones that are byproducts of nukes.

There's also a lot of in-place shielding that goes unaccounted for (car bodies, etc.)

But if a country wants to attack us with dedicated EMP weapons, watch out.
They'll specifically blanket the US with well placed detonations, then everything is at risk.
In that case, anything but the most well thought out shielding will result in fried electronics.

Moccasin

· #6 · Jun 24, 2011

goose3 said:
Here are the important facts (IMO):

1. When the Soviets tested one of these things back during the cold war, it burned out stuff for hundreds of miles.

2. We're much more delicate in our elecronics today than we were then.

3. Some things might not be susceptible.

4. Until and unless an EMP is detonated in today's world, you will not know for sure what will survive and what will not.

5. Thus, you protect what you think might be susceptible to EMP and which it will be important to have survive such an event.

6. One has to decide whether to err on the side of caution or to take some risks. How risky? You'll have to decide.

7. I have a lot of stuff in a Faraday cage. I'm working on one for my generator. I think the threat is there, and its probability is nontrivial.

Nobody can say with authority what will happen; you have to know how strong an EMP weapon is, where it's detonated, how high in the atmosphere, and other conditions that may obtain. It's possible some things may survive as they may be in a place that affords protection, or protected by something like a metal awning, or underground, or...whatever.

Not just the Soviets: One of the early U.S. Bikini Atoll tests knocked parts of the Hawaiian power grid down, despite hundreds of miles of distance. That was OUR wake up call on EMP...

As you noted, though, the problem is there are too many variables, and not enough knowledge on our part, to be able to say what will happen in an EMP. Some things would seem certain. The power grids will blow. Communications will be disrupted. Lots of circuits will fry. Other things, not so much. It would seem logical that modern cars, with all the microprocessors in them, would have little chance; and yet I've seen tests which suggest they may have more resilience than people think, and forcing them to reboot by disconnecting and reconnecting the battery might bring the car back to life. It is hard to say. The only way to find out would be to go through one. Which is kind of like jumping into a shark tank and screaming "YOO HOO, COME EAT ME!!!"; not something you want to do if you don't have to.

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Pangea

· #7 · Jun 24, 2011

North Korea is building a dedicated, purpose built EMP bomb. What they lack is a delivery system.

MikeK

· #8 · Jun 24, 2011

Try using google site search here. There are a lot of really good, informative threads on EMP. But the default search engine has a bit of a learning curve to master. Google site search gives better results easier.

But as you noted, the book you read is fiction. EMP is definately real. But I doubt the book did it justice.

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spacelarry

· #9 · Jun 24, 2011

Pangea said:
North Korea is building a dedicated, purpose built EMP bomb. What they lack is a delivery system.

It is their nuke program. Also a car body would not be that much protection as you need copper or something to block the wave. Car may help but it wouldn't do that much. The thing about EMP if a country used it against use we would attack them as well.

Sprig

· #10 · Jun 25, 2011

spacelarry said:
It is their nuke program. Also a car body would not be that much protection as you need copper or something to block the wave...

Would a DeLorean be better?:thumb:

Pangea

· #11 · Jun 25, 2011

Sprig said:
Would a DeLorean be better?:thumb:

Heck yeah because you could use it to go back in time and change events!

:

Reactions: 2

goose3

· #12 · Jun 25, 2011

spacelarry said:
It is their nuke program. Also a car body would not be that much protection as you need copper or something to block the wave. Car may help but it wouldn't do that much. The thing about EMP if a country used it against use we would attack them as well.

Actually, you can use steel, but the steel has to be much thicker than aluminum or copper (which are the ideal metals, silver aside).

Depending on the size of the item one wishes to protect, I'm confident that if you wrapped it in a nonconductive material, then wrapped that in heavy-duty aluminum foil, then again in some nonconductive material, you could store that in a steel ammo can which when sealed would afford you a type of nested Faraday cage.

Nobody can say for certain, but I'm confident--and you can place as much value on that as you like--that this would suffice.

I have my stuff in a nested faraday cage. The inside cage is made of aluminum screen; the outside is an aluminum box.

eprobation

· #13 · Jun 28, 2011

I read somewhere that you could wrap items in foil and then place them inside of a metal trashcan with the lid on and then place it in your basement... This sounds simple, but I dont know how realistic it would be. I sure hope we never find out.

Murphman

· #14 · Jun 28, 2011

spacelarry said:
The thing about EMP if a country used it against use we would attack them as well.

THAT is the biggest question about EMP. Would we strike back (and don't think we wouldn't know who did it)? Would we strike back with our own EMP, all out nukes on their soil or full scale invasion of troops?

I had this discussion with a friend of mine once and he strongly leaned for an all out nuke retaliatory attack, screw the UN and human rights. They would be burned bacon. I tend to agree.

merlinfire

· #15 · Jun 28, 2011

So a nuke detonation at 300miles up could EMP the whole damn US. And solid-state electronics are most vulnerable. Guess what we use almost exclusively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EMP_areas.JPG

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jglawson123

· #16 · Jun 28, 2011

Download and read the following report...

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf

about 208 pages...and come to your own conclusions

...also currently working on HR 668 (Shield Act)...so...I would say they are taking it real serious...:thumb:

hogan646

· #17 · Jun 29, 2011

jglawson123 said:
Download and read the following report...

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf

about 208 pages...and come to your own conclusions ...also currently working on HR 668 (Shield Act)...so...I would say they are taking it real serious...:thumb:

As a follow-up to the above post, I am on the EMPact Radio email distribution list and received an mail regarding a big push for HR 668 "The Shield Act". August 4th is the new target for getting the "The Shield Act" passed by congress. Click on the link below find out more about the bill and what you can do to help this important bill get passed.

SHIELDAct.com

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Tiger 59

· #18 · Jun 29, 2011

hogan646 said:
As a follow-up to the above post, I am on the EMPact Radio email distribution list and received an mail regarding a big push for HR 668 "The Shield Act". August 4th is the new target for getting the "The Shield Act" passed by congress. Click on the link below find out more about the bill and what you can do to help this important bill get passed.

SHIELDAct.com

About time, perfect way for the Govt to create new jobs

Reactions: 1

abatardi

· #19 · Jun 29, 2011

merlinfire said:
So a nuke detonation at 300miles up could EMP the whole damn US. And solid-state electronics are most vulnerable. Guess what we use almost exclusively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EMP_areas.JPG

So basically, you'd have to blow the nuke up in the exosphere.......

hogan646

· #20 · Jun 29, 2011

Good point Tiger! Obama is always talking about "Shovel Ready" jobs. This could be one that may actually work.

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