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Over the past few decades public employees unions made a concerted effort to hijack local city councils, boards of supervisors and state houses with their own candidates then had these politicians vote for excessively generous retirement pensions. The baby boomer public employees promptly bailed out with their golden parachutes and laughed all the way to the bank while younger taxpayers were left holding the bag..... until now.

From today's New York Times
 

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Over the past few decades public employees unions made a concerted effort to hijack local city councils, boards of supervisors and state houses with their own candidates then had these politicians vote for excessively generous retirement pensions. The baby boomer public employees promptly bailed out with their golden parachutes and laughed all the way to the bank while younger taxpayers were left holding the bag..... until now.

From today's New York Times

Read more here>
This also happened a few years ago in Prichard, Alabama.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/business/23prichard.html
 

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I drink your milkshake!
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No way dude, a pension is your own retirement account. Whats next? 401k's and bank deposit boxes?
I have to disagree with you here. It isn't "your" own retirement account. It is an agreement between you and your employer that you will receive so much money when you retire in exchange for typically lower pay while you are working. The problem is that it's unsustainable. Completely.

And before anyone jumps on me here, my own father and mother are currently living on my father's pension from the railroad. The amount of money that he put in and what he has received out of it are extraordinarily offset. And, he had a very good salary when he was working.

401k's are very different in that what you put in and what is compounded on top of your money are the only thing that you get back. There is no set amount that you will receive every month based on how many years of service you have given.

Pensions are unsustainable because they rely on someone else paying into the system, 401k's are your money alone and you are responsible for yourself.
 

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I have to disagree with you here. It isn't "your" own retirement account. It is an agreement between you and your employer that you will receive so much money when you retire in exchange for typically lower pay while you are working. The problem is that it's unsustainable. Completely.

And before anyone jumps on me here, my own father and mother are currently living on my father's pension from the railroad. The amount of money that he put in and what he has received out of it are extraordinarily offset. And, he had a very good salary when he was working.

401k's are very different in that what you put in and what is compounded on top of your money are the only thing that you get back. There is no set amount that you will receive every month based on how many years of service you have given.

Pensions are unsustainable because they rely on someone else paying into the system, 401k's are your money alone and you are responsible for yourself.

And it is YOUR money,unlike the elaborate pensions the states promise you,this is what is happening in Wisconsin now.
 

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No way dude, a pension is your own retirement account
Dude a public employee pension is paid by tax payers and created by bureaucrats they should have NEVER gotten to the level they are, I say cut the hell out of them and the public employees should be thankful for what they get because they had it so easy.

Private sector pensions are different but at best just a promise and promises are broken all the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
An optimist views the current financial crisis as a series of grand opportunities. The greatest of these is the potential to unravel the web of benefits, obligations, and compacts the Baby-Boom generation granted themselves using the bludgeon of their overwhelming voter block.

Baby Boomers are the richest generation in human history.

At the same time they are attempting to bequeath to their offspring the largest local, state, and federal government debt in history.

Thankfully personal debt cannot be inherited.

The Debt Ceiling fiasco was a manufactured crisis. We should get used to them. Over the next decade we will see a series of these:

Fear Buildup >
Brink of Crisis >
Emergency Legislation >
Trickling Revelation of Contents of Legislation >
Change

Sadly, it is the only way to sneak anything past the largest lobbying group in Washington, the AARP, and their self-centered wards, the Baby-Boom Generation.
 

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Prepared Firebird
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This reminds me of the situation with General Motors Corp. A large part of what dragged that company down was the unsustainable continuing health and retirement benefits for its' big group of retired GM employees.

The plan worked during the boom years, when GM was selling a lot of cars. But, when GM failed to recognize changing customer preferences, sales fell. The auto union kept demanding higher and higher wages for assembly line employees, etc. --- and GM ended up between the rock and hard place. (I am still amazed that the union agreed to accept responsibility for the employee and retiree health benefits.)
 

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Not necessarily. Depends on the pension. Some are largely the employee's own money. And others, even public service jobs, are a bit of a scam. For instance, a middle-class job might offer a $70K salary, but that includes the employee's (and employer's) retirement contributions. As a result, the employee's actual take-home salary is quite a bit lower than advertised. I lose at least 1/3 of my check to social security, taxes and bennies. Blue-collar union jobs often build bennies into the salary scales also, so the actual take-home is quite a bit smaller than you'd otherwise. think. So instead of calling it all automatically unsustainable, you need to look at the particular contract.

Anyway, our jobs as IDIOTS is to attack one another out of envy. Each of us, as working/middle-class, should try not to improve his own job, benefits, etc. But instead to TAKE DOWN his neighbor's arrangement. If you can't improve your own lot, ruin your neighbor's out of malice, eh?

God forbid you ask the rich, who've accumulated so much the past few decades, to pay more. JP Morgan wants you to take down your fellow wage-slave. The banksters benefit that way. Rather than raise everyone up, they're far happier if everyone is flushed down the toilet.

Theoretically, a system which relies on others to pay into it might be sustainable (military and other pensions have been around since before the Civil War). But that relies on an always expanding population (check) and a population with better job/earnings (and therefore tax base) opportunities than its parents (uncheck).

I have to disagree with you here. It isn't "your" own retirement account. It is an agreement between you and your employer that you will receive so much money when you retire in exchange for typically lower pay while you are working. The problem is that it's unsustainable. Completely.

And before anyone jumps on me here, my own father and mother are currently living on my father's pension from the railroad. The amount of money that he put in and what he has received out of it are extraordinarily offset. And, he had a very good salary when he was working.

401k's are very different in that what you put in and what is compounded on top of your money are the only thing that you get back. There is no set amount that you will receive every month based on how many years of service you have given.

Pensions are unsustainable because they rely on someone else paying into the system, 401k's are your money alone and you are responsible for yourself.
 

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I drink your milkshake!
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Not necessarily. Depends on the pension. Some are largely the employee's own money. And others, even public service jobs, are a bit of a scam. For instance, a middle-class job might offer a $70K salary, but that includes the employee's (and employer's) retirement contributions. As a result, the employee's actual take-home salary is quite a bit lower than advertised. I lose at least 1/3 of my check to social security, taxes and bennies. Blue-collar union jobs often build bennies into the salary scales also, so the actual take-home is quite a bit smaller than you'd otherwise. think. So instead of calling it all automatically unsustainable, you need to look at the particular contract.

Anyway, our jobs as IDIOTS is to attack one another out of envy. Each of us, as working/middle-class, should try not to improve his own job, benefits, etc. But instead to TAKE DOWN his neighbor's arrangement. If you can't improve your own lot, ruin your neighbor's out of malice, eh?

God forbid you ask the rich, who've accumulated so much the past few decades, to pay more. JP Morgan wants you to take down your fellow wage-slave. The banksters benefit that way. Rather than raise everyone up, they're far happier if everyone is flushed down the toilet.

Theoretically, a system which relies on others to pay into it might be sustainable (military and other pensions have been around since before the Civil War). But that relies on an always expanding population (check) and a population with better job/earnings (and therefore tax base) opportunities than its parents (uncheck).
Aram, if anything, you are definitely consistent. Your "The rich are the evil ones" schtick grows old and tired.

Your statement of "Some are largely the employees money" is factually and intellectually stupid. Pensions are, by definition, not the employees money and to say so is misleading. You are simply making that statement in the hopes that people will listen to that and possibly believe something other than the truth.

The VAST MAJORITY, probably 95%, of pensions are defined benefit, unfunded plans meaning you get so much money for so much service and they are paid for by the employer with no funding by the employee.

As to your statement of "envy" and "take down", just shut up. For the first time Aram, you got under my skin.

There is no envy in my statement, simply pointing out the fact that pensions are unsustainable.

I'm done with you.
 

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Aram, if anything, you are definitely consistent. Your "The rich are the evil ones" schtick grows old and tired.

Your statement of "Some are largely the employees money" is factually and intellectually stupid. Pensions are, by definition, not the employees money and to say so is misleading. You are simply making that statement in the hopes that people will listen to that and possibly believe something other than the truth.

The VAST MAJORITY, probably 95%, of pensions are defined benefit, unfunded plans meaning you get so much money for so much service and they are paid for by the employer with no funding by the employee.

As to your statement of "envy" and "take down", just shut up. For the first time Aram, you got under my skin.




There is no envy in my statement, simply pointing out the fact that pensions are unsustainable.

I'm done with you.


http://www.bls.gov/bls/glossary.htm#D

Defined benefit pension plan

read last sentence.
 

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Dude a public employee pension is paid by tax payers and created by bureaucrats they should have NEVER gotten to the level they are, I say cut the hell out of them and the public employees should be thankful for what they get because they had it so easy.

Private sector pensions are different but at best just a promise and promises are broken all the time.
Well according to your thoughts then, this should apply to all the military vets who retire from military service! Thanks for your contribution Sgt so and so or Maj so and so and be grateful for what you got, because for real you had it easy for most of your career!

Sorry but I don't agree with you at all.........:whip:
 

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Pensions are just Annuities. Its an insurance product.

So, the fact that state pensions are going belly up, means that the principal for that insurance product was not handled properly, or legally allowed not to accrue and be replaced with debt.

Either way, sounds like fraud to me.
 
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