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Working up another article for ReadyMan Magazine and I could use some input.

I was just debating with my Navy SEAL co-host the merits of a .308 battle rifle. His point: there's not much of a tactical slot for a semi-auto .308. So, we'll probably build an article with him shooting the SCAR Heavy (.308) against the SCAR Light (.223). We might also shoot an Colt M4 against the Knight Armament AR-10. We'll do all of this on a dynamic range (running and shooting).

Anyway, I struggle with this question too. What IS the tactical slot for a semi-auto .308? I can see having a bolt-action .308 (or .300 Win Mag) AND an AR-15. But why a .308 semi-auto?

It seems like it does a worse job at almost every task than a bolt action/AR-15. Is it a compromise gun, where one gun is supposed to do the job of two, but not do the job well?

Also, what would be the best way to compare/contrast the .308 semi against the .223 semi in an active shoot? Any creative ideas?

(In fairness, I think the .308 is the IDEAL belt-fed machine gun round!)
 

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a semi 308 does fill a good nich. Best "slot" I can think is a good designated marksman role beyond 223 range. Faster follow up shots than a bolt action.

It would also be better against body armor than a 223 & very light anti-material round (civilian vehicles)

basically if you need to put precise shots downrange & need the extra speed edge of a semi over bolt action where a 223 would be underpowered, a semi 308 would fill the role.
 

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think penatration it will go through ALOT more objects from walls to trees to vests,and still hit its target.The 308 turns cover into concealment. If your enemy wears an armoured vest it will do no good a 308 will penatrate,however the new civilian vest can stop a 308 but the common warrior will not have it.

On the battle field I would want a semi-auto over a bolt action anyday not every mission goes as planed.:eek:

this is why I would want a semi-auto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo8hLKNlWTc

most ppl look at the 308 as a sniper round shooting from a long range but on the battle field things dont always go as planed,or the killing field isnt picture perfect.

example



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkY5-3EhD-k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX6VF7qLntg

Also most ppl dont have the skill to hit a man size target past 600yrds so long range shots shouldnt be the main focuse 100-400 yrd would be more reasonable adverage combat range.
 

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.308 semi fills the nitch for those who don't have arty, beltfeds, AT-4's, CAS, and naval gunfire.

You also may have a slower recovery for a second shot, but you don't have to shoot them 5-7x like with a 5.56 (personal experience, I have NO INTEREST in debating this)
It also doesn't deflect off unarmored vehicle windshields and does a far better job bucking cover.

Also, unless your more fit than 97% of the people reading this, your not going to be carrying a load out of a 5.56 and a bolt gun.

A PARA FAL with Acupoint will be a serious contender to replace my AK as a primary post surgery.

Back when I carried a beltfed to work and had co workers with 203's and rockets.... There was less need for a .308

When the logistical tail catches up.... I will be seriously interested in a SCAR 17
 

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My thoughts on the subject. It is the first section, but I left the rest in just to indicate the mindset I have that drives the choices I make.


My planned weapons battery and why:
(I have some of these, but by no means all. And some of them are more or less wish-for items I may never be able to afford.)

1. Main Battle Rifle (MBR) - .308 in a folding stock PTR-91. .308 because it will do just about everything the M-16/M-4, AK-47/74, and SKS platforms in 5.56, 7.62x39, 5.45x39 will, just not quite as well for a couple of things, plus it can do things those platforms and cartridges can’t. Can also hunt most North American big game, and small game with .32 ACP adapters. PTR-91 because it is somewhat cheaper than the competitors and the magazines (right now, anyway) are only $2 - $6 for good used alloy ones. Next choice is M1A, but it is more expensive all the way around. Minimum of 3 load outs of magazines, dependent on your LBE. 1,000 rounds per gun.

Many will say you don't need an MBR round in urban areas because of ranges. I disagree. There are long open stretches along streets, and if the attackers have long range weapons and you don't, you are pretty much out of luck and can be harassed until the attackers get close enough to take you out. Plus the penetration is much better with .308 for those that think they are under cover when it is only concealment to the .308. (Have)

Why no light combat rifle? (M-16/M-4 types, AK-47/74 types, and SKS platforms in 7.62x39, 6.8, 6.5, 5.56, 5.45x39) They tend to be lighter than MBRs, but only somewhat for some of them. Others are quite a bit lighter, as is the ammunition. One can carry more ammunition, yes. But it is not as effective as .308 by a long shot. Doesn’t have the range, when needed, of the .308. And though one can carry more ammunition with the lighter calibers, it boils down to how many targets can you successfully engage with that ammunition load? Where it often takes 2, 3, 4, or more rounds of 5.56 to successfully engage and put down an attacker due to cover, body armor, deflection of the round, and several other reasons, 1 or 2, occasionally 3 rounds of .308 is likely to take down that same adversary. 210 rounds standard load, divided by 3 is 70 targets engaged. 180 rounds (my standard load of .308 for the PTR-91) divided by 2 is 90 targets engaged. Now, there are a tremendous number of variables when it comes to targets engaged. But in aimed, controlled fire, I think the .308 has the lead. In spray and pray, or heavy suppressive fire, the 5.56 et al probably do.

2. Primary self defense handgun - .45 ACP in Glock 21SF. .45 ACP because it will get the job done quiet effectively with reliable FMJ rounds with moderate recoil in a practical size. Readily available ammunition. Glock 21SF for magazine capacity in .45 ACP and low cost. Next choice is ParaOrdnance P-14, but it is more expensive all the way around. (Have) 12 magazines. Minimum of 500 rounds.

3. Dual purpose shotgun – 12 gauge in Remington 11-87 26” barrel w/Poly-choke and various tactical accessories. 12 gauge because of readily available ammunition, it is most effective in most situations including hunting. 11-87 because it is semi-auto which helps reduce recoil, can use many different loads due to the gas system (26” barrels up only. Short barrels don’t have the gas compensation system), and is faster on follow-up aimed shots than pumps for most people. Next choice is the same gun w/o the tactical additions. (Have) Minimum of 500 rounds mixed 00 buck/slugs, 500 rounds mixed hunting rounds.

4. Sniping/hunting gun – Remington 700 .30-’06 with Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10 x 40mm. .30-’06 will take all but the largest most dangerous game at long range. Adequate sniping weapon at ranges up to ~600 yards. Availability of ammunition. Can use .32 ACP for small game very quietly with chamber adapter. Why .30-’06 instead of .308? Because it gives two calibers, both of which are acceptable hunting and defense calibers. Ammunition for hunting would be purchased for either weapon, so you would have the same number of rounds in either case. 5 magazines, 400 rounds sniping rounds, 400 rounds mixed hunting rounds.

5. Hideout handgun - .32 ACP in Beretta Tomcat. .32 ACP because it is useable in .30 caliber rifles as a small game load with the use of chamber adapters. Minimum power for self defense in semi-auto pistols. Tomcat because of its small size, quality, and price. (Have) 9 magazines. 250 defensive rounds, 250 for hunting in the .30-'06.

6. Secondary self defense handgun - .45 ACP in Glock 30SF. Slightly smaller package that will take 9 & 10 round magazines for better concealment plus Model 21 13-round magazines. Next Choice is ParaOrdnance P-10 Warthog, but it is more expensive all the way around. (have) 2 9-round, 4 10-round, 6 additional 21 SF 13-round magazines. Additional 250 rounds ammunition.

7. Dangerous/large game/light anti-materiel rifle - .375 H&H Magnum in Remington 700 bolt action. .375 H&H magnum for availability, and proven record on big, dangerous game. Moderately effective anti-material round. Better dual purpose round than smaller rounds and the bigger magnums because of recoil, availability, and cost. Remington 700 because of price and the fact that it is repeater, which is important in big/dangerous game and anti-material use. (Want) 5 magazines. 400 rounds anti-material rounds, 200 hunting rounds.

9. Hand-out gun(s) – Auto Ordnance.30 Carbine in M1 Carbine. .30 Carbine because it is small and light, works in a small frame box magazine semi-auto gun, has ballistics at 200 yards slightly better than .357 Magnum at the muzzle. M1 Carbine because it is light, handy, easy to handle, and more accurate in unskilled hands than a full power handgun or rifle. Also not too expensive for the carbines, magazines, and ammunition. (Want) 30 15-round magazines per gun, 1,000 rounds defensive rounds per gun, 200 hunting rounds for the .30-'06

10. Personal Defense Weapon (PDR) – PDR for primarily non-combatants. Same as the hand-out gun for all the same reasons. Small enough and light enough to keep slung when doing many tasks, unlike full power weapons. Pistols are ‘handier’ in that they are smaller and lighter, but inexperienced shooters seem to handle a light carbine more effectively than a pistol. 30 15-round magazines per gun, 1,000 rounds defensive rounds per gun.

11. Get-home-bag/trunk gun – Again the .30 Carbine, this time with a folding stock. For most of the same reasons above. There are guns that compact as much or more than a folding stock .30 Carbine, but most have a much larger profile and the gun and ammunition are heavier and bulkier. Some that seem ideal I don’t trust to be reliable. (Not a BOB or GOOD or INCH bag – they call for an MBR in my opinion) 30 15-round magazines per gun, 1,000 rounds defensive rounds per gun.

12. Long Ranger sniper/anti-material rifle – Vigilance VR-1 .408 Cheytac because of its effectiveness at long ranges for both anti-personnel and anti-materiel sniping. VR-1 because it’s light for the caliber (18#), semi-auto. .408 Cheytac due to its effectiveness compared to the .50 BMG and .416 Barrett, and the fact that it is available in lighter and easier to handle weapons. (Out of my price range at the moment) (Want) 5 magazines. 600 rounds of ammunition

Why no .22 LR or other rimfires – Simply because they cannot be reloaded. When you’re out of ammunition, you are out of ammunition. They are so common that finding one post-disaster shouldn’t be much of a problem. Same with the ammunition early on, and then, when it’s all gone, they aren’t useable. The .30 M1 Carbines can do pretty much substitute for a .22 rim fire rifle or carbine will do and the rounds are reloadable.

13. Black powder cartridge arms - .45-70 in Marlin 1895, .45 Colt in Ruger New Model Blackhawk Convertible, .32-20 in Ruger Blackhawk & Marlin 1894 rifle. .45-70 because it is the most plentiful of the big bore black powder cartridges is powerful enough for any American big game at short ranges. Marlin because of quality. .45 Colt because it is the most common powerful black powder hand gun cartridge easily available. Ruger for the same reason as the Marlin. .32-20 because it is a better small game cartridge than the .45-70 or .45 Colt, and available in Ruger and Marlin firearms. (Want) 1,000 rounds each caliber each gun.

14. Blackpowder muzzle loaders - .58 caliber flintlock rifle, .58 caliber flintlock handgun (x3), .32 flintlock rifle, 12 gauge flintlock shotgun. Flintlock because black powder, including ffff for priming, can be made, and bullets cast from scrap lead. .58 caliber rifle and pistol for bullet interchangeability. Any good quality brand for availability, quality, and cost. .32 for small game, 12 gauge for maximum power. (Want) Loading supplies for 1,000 shots each caliber for each gun.

15. Archery weapons – When quiet is needed and there are no suppressors for the firearms, archery weapons come into their own. While the high tech ones have some of the same disadvantages of firearms, such as available ammunition (arrows, points, nocks, shafts, and fletching) more primitive designs can be home made and can be effective enough to hunt with and even for defense in some cases.
Bear Carnage Compound Bow using Easton ST Axis Full Metal Jacket Dangerous Game arrows with MUZZY 4 blade broad heads 145gr regular compound bow or a Barnett Predator AVI compound Crossbow using Easton XX75 bolts with MUZZY 4 blade broadhead 145gr for a compound cross bow.

16. Expedient weapons/defenses:
Here creativity becomes the watch word. Most things can be used as a weapon, many that are innocuous enough to not get you in trouble if you carry them. A good hiking staff or walking stick, to a roll of dimes in a fist, to keys held through the fingers, and on and on and on. Any search on the internet for expedient weapons will find all kinds of examples. One particular one that I like isn’t an offensive weapon. It is pretty much defensive. That is a small, lightly weighted throw net. It can be carried in a pocket ready to deploy, or even in the hand, and with a flick of the arm and wrist, (after lots of practice) it can entangle an aggressor enough, for long enough, to do harm to them if required, or two get away.

17. Sharps:
Every Day Carry - City:
Leatherman or Cold Steel folding pocket knife
Gentleman’s Swiss Army Knife

Every Day Carry – Field (in addition to the above):
Leatherman Surge Multi-tool
Wenger Survivor SAK
Spyderco C08 Harpy one hand opening serrated hawk blade ‘get out of trouble’ folder kept clipped where it is easy one hand access for emergency use.

Concurrent to the first 5 weapons:
Edged weapons:
Ontario Knife OKC-3S bayonet (for PTR-91 & Remington 11-87)(Yes, they will fit with the adapters I have) (Have)
Cold Steel Oda field knife (Have 2)
Cold Steel Rifleman’s tomahawk (Have)
Cold Steel 24” Latin machete (Have)

Concurrent with the Black powder cartridge arms.
Cold Steel 1860 heavy cavalry saber (want)
Cold Steel Natchez Bowie Knife (want)

Just my opinion.
 

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Designated Marksman Rifle VS Assault Rifles

The DMR is a rifle that fires 7.62mm NATO or similar full-power rounds. Examples M14, FN FAL, AR-10 and Heckler & Koch G3. These rifles were largely replaced by assault rifles firing the 5.56mm NATO cartridge during the 1970s and 1980s.

Assault rifles uses an intermediate cartridge. And are the standard service rifles used in most modern armies. Also assault rifles use smaller cartridges and are used at closer ranges than battle rifles. Examples of assault. StG 44, AK-47,[2] M16 rifle, INSAS rifle, QBZ-95, FAMAS, Heckler & Koch G36, and Enfield SA80.

Combat experience during the World Wars had shown that most infantry combat took place at 200–300 meters (220–330 yards) distance and that the winner of any given firefight would most likely be the one with the highest rate of fire.

Source of studies:

Marshall Report. The study was done on WWII combat.

Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon.
By Norman A. Hitchman at the Army's Operations Research Office. (released in 1952)
 

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I took an AR-10 to a carbine class once.

Once.

I stick with AR / AK variants for anything and everything "tactical." There is no "tactical" situation where a .308 would offer appreciably better performance, but a whole lotta times when it could be a detriment. The "slow me down" weight and round capacity present potentially big problems. In such applications, engagement ranges are within 300 yards, which is perfect for carbines.

In fact, for most applications I'd rather run a suppressed sub-gun in 9, 40, or 45 in select-fire -- a KV suppressed SBR would be perfect.
 

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This is my humble opinion:

1) 308 bolt gun for hunting and sniping, anywhere in North America.

2) AR-15 for self defence, bug-out, even hunting east of the Mississippi. Shorter distances, more people, can carry more ammo.

3) 308 AR-10, PTR-91, FAL, or other version of semi auto for west of the Mississippi,
plains states, mountain states, etc. Range is needed, larger animals, but fewer people.

4) Handguns, personal choice, again east of the Mississippi maybe a 9mm. West due to larger animals you might encounter in the wild 45 acp. Possibly depending on your location, urban or rural, a 44 mag, or a 357 mag.

5) My hand out guns for family or very close friends would probably be a Mosin or SKS depending on need.

I do like the M1 Carbine, but do not have one.

6) Also for home defence 12 gauge or a 20 gauge for women or kids.

7) 22lr is primarily for hunting only, or last ditch self defence. In a SHTF situation stealth might be more necessary, so snares, traps, and fishing would be the way to gather food. One can even use snare wire in a 30" circle on a deer trail to snare a deer in a SHTF situation without the noise of shooting. Can spear it or shoot it with a bow. Be sure to check your snares or traps, daily in winter, more often in summer so meat will not spoil.

Like one said, you cannot reload a 22lr. I can reload a 9mm (if I save or get all the brass I can from the range) for the same price as 22mags. 9mm from a carbine can more than equal a 22 LR. Same can be said for 38sp/357.

I know how to make gunpowder and made it in high school (I used powdered sugar instead of charcoal). I can melt lead and make bullets. I just have to have a good supply of primers.
 

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As some posts already mentioned, it's largely dependant on your terrain. Wide open expanses require a gun with more power and range. Here in the southeast, your view is often broken up by hills and foliage, most of the time the best you got is a 2-300 yards. Here in my small rural sub-division, it's usually closer to 50-100 yards.
Given that, I prefer a lighter rifle with lighter (more) ammo.
Then factor in the cost of both rifle and ammo. Personally, I'd take two AK's and two cases of ammo, over a nice M1A (as much as I love 'em) and a single case of ammo ( and STILL probably have some cash left over ;)).
 

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Working up another article for ReadyMan Magazine and I could use some input.

I was just debating with my Navy SEAL co-host the merits of a .308 battle rifle.
His point: there's not much of a tactical slot for a semi-auto .308.


What is the scenario? What's terrain?
What are the numbers of good guys vs. bad guys?
What other ordnance is involved on both sides?

The 5.56mm NATO & 7.62x39 are great, but neither of them punch through objects as well as the 7.62mm NATO.
I believe there will be a practical tactical slot for a semi-auto .308 for for many years to come.
Bottom line: I wouldn't want to get into a situation where a semi-auto .308 is needed, and not have it.

A 16.25" or 18" M14 in the stock of your choosing with some 25 round CMI mags is a rather nice addition to any tool box.
 

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Working up another article for ReadyMan Magazine and I could use some input.

I was just debating with my Navy SEAL co-host the merits of a .308 battle rifle. His point: there's not much of a tactical slot for a semi-auto .308. So, we'll probably build an article with him shooting the SCAR Heavy (.308) against the SCAR Light (.223). We might also shoot an Colt M4 against the Knight Armament AR-10. We'll do all of this on a dynamic range (running and shooting).
I doubt that SOCOM would have adopted the Knights Armament SR25 for their units if it didn't serve a purpose in tactical environments.

But it does serve a limited role, albeit a pretty damn important one when it is needed.

If you want to put them up against each other in a true test you will need to have targets at distance or behind light cover such as glass, wood or cinder block to give the .308 round it's due.

Be Prepared, :)
OBW
.
 

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No It Does Not

Is it possible you are fixating upon just guns and stuff and may not be addressing all the other prepping stuff? Our group, (if you can call just extended family and a few long term close friends a group) try to spend ONLY about 10% of our time and money on prepping in general ... and out of that 10%, ONLY about 10% on firearms and related things in total.

It does not leave much time and money to delegate for guns and stuff. There is too much to do with all the other many prepping things needed to be done. The ten percent rule for all prepping activity seems to work for us as we have many other basic things to do with our activities of daily living. Just us. My opinion only. HB of CJ (old coot) Sorry if needed.
 

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as I recall a whole generation learned to use 8rnds of 30.06 to great effect in the tactical roll all over the globe. I shoot 7.62 nato all the time out of an AR10 carbine.
nothing to it, all it takes is practice and knowing yer rifle and ammunition. 762nato will flat out destroy urban cover, split rock, go through trees and get at what ever is behind it, it's overpowered for a reason, once you understand how that can be utilized it's a hell of an edge.
why use 30 when 15 or 20 will do! it can be loaded to take coyote or elk or whatever the need that may arise.
every ones worried about hump'n their rifles and ammo during some dramatic end of the world event :rolleyes: call me a fan boy if ya want
but then I don't fantasy about TEOTWAWKI or make that the basis for my decisions I simply go with what works and for the survivalist/woodsman/desert rat from Nevada an AR10 in .308, well, it's damn near perfect.
 

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5.56 is good because it is cheaper to shoot and can hold more rounds. That being said, if I could get an AR-10 that is close to the weight of an AR-15 I would have no problem with the 20 vs 30rds. The punch that the 7.62 round holds over the 5.56 round is undeniable and I think in becomes even more important in an urban environment contrary to what others have posted due to the fact that there is a lot of concealment for a 7.62 that is cover from a 5.56.
 

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Combat experience during the World Wars had shown that most infantry combat took place at 200–300 meters (220–330 yards) distance and that the winner of any given firefight would most likely be the one with the highest rate of fire.
Yes, but this is conventional warfare, where you have battalion sized forces on both sides fighting conventionally.

If you are talking about hit & run raids, ambushes, booby-traps, & other guerrilla operations out of the underground. Highest rate of fire & superior firepower do not win the battle

Plenty of men fell to punji sticks in Vietnam, this level of technology consists of a sharpened stick in the ground. Not very advanced, not very pretty either but it worked then & it works now.
 

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.308 semi fills the nitch for those who don't have arty, beltfeds, AT-4's, CAS, and naval gunfire.

You also may have a slower recovery for a second shot, but you don't have to shoot them 5-7x like with a 5.56 (personal experience, I have NO INTEREST in debating this)
It also doesn't deflect off unarmored vehicle windshields and does a far better job bucking cover.

Also, unless your more fit than 97% of the people reading this, your not going to be carrying a load out of a 5.56 and a bolt gun.

A PARA FAL with Acupoint will be a serious contender to replace my AK as a primary post surgery.

Back when I carried a beltfed to work and had co workers with 203's and rockets.... There was less need for a .308

When the logistical tail catches up.... I will be seriously interested in a SCAR 17
This post covers everything I was going to say. Why carry two rifles when one will do the job of both? A compromise is the 6.5 or the 6.8SPC as far as weight, Think about the men carting M1's and M14's all over hells creation in the past. Train a little harder you won't notice the weight. Tighten up that chinstrap and embrace the suck.
 

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Not to knock the .308 but I'd go for the 30-06. Granted the battle rifle would be a Garand or 1903. But they got us through several war before they came out with a larger magazine .in .308.
 
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