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Discussion Starter #1
So this weekend we have a friend visiting from out of state. This friend has had epilepsy since he was young. My wife went to college with him and we have both dealt with him having seizures. In the past, my wife has called 911 during his episodes and stayed on the line until he was ok, told the operator so and that was that.

This past Saturday, it happened again. Only this time, the operator insisted that since we called 911, that they have to send someone out. My wife repeatedly told the operator we did not need an ambulance. As soon as I heard our address come out of my wife's mouth I gave her a look. (he was already out of his seizure at this point and was indeed ok.)

So the paramedics show up. I walk out and tell them his history and that he is ok and resting and they are not needed. I tell them we did not even request and ambulance. They ask if they can see him anyway. I say no, there is no reason and he is resting. They threaten with calling the police and that they "will get to see him anyways". About this time, the firetruck is pulling up. Not wanting to escalate this show of force into something worse (on my behalf) and just to get it over with I allowed them to see him.

I stood by as they talked to him and with each other. They were contemplating amongst themselves if they needed to take him in even though he was stable had already refused transport. The questions they were asking him and each other, hell the whole situation, made me want to puke. Since when are paramedics, fire fighters, or police required to respond to a call and force their way in even when the caller says no?

Never have I felt so violated. I believe this, along with so much other stuff I have seen and heard lately, are signs to what is to come.
 

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Since when are paramedics, fire fighters, or police required to respond to a call and force their way in even when the caller says no? Never have I felt so violated. I believe this, along with so much other stuff I have seen and heard lately, are signs to what is to come.
Since when you declared it an emergency and asked for publicly-supported help. (If you had called your neighbor it would be totally different.) You caused the problem and you want us to sympathize with your politics? Sorry, no go with me. You're the one who escalated the issue by refusing them to let them see the person you called an emergency on. They are better qualified to judge his health than you, or perhaps him. Their request was not at all unreasonable. Your refusal was.

One time I wrote a story about a couple who were pounding up on each other, domestic dispute, the cops arrested both of them. They bailed out and ended up at my desk asking why in the hell did I write about their private fight. And I said the moment you called the cops it stopped being a private fight. The moment you call 911 it stops being a private medical decision.
 

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As a firefighter (22yrs), we ARE required by state statute to respond to and investigate every call we are dispatched to, no matter the time of day, the weather, or anything else.....we get the call, we go.
Whether we do anything to assist or mitigate the situation found depends on what it is. If its a serious potential hazard to life or property, WE OWN THE SITUATION at that point, INCLUDING YOUR HOME, and any interference with our duties is considered a felony and you can be arrested and criminally charged for such interference.

As for a common epilpsy event as you described, we would likely leave the patient in the hands of competent family member(particularly if its a child in custody of their parent/s) or friends, and have them sign a waiver of treatment, thereby relinguishing responsibility of the situation.

There's nothing totalitarian about it.......they are covering their ass and doing their legally required duty. You want an emergency system?, then you accept the rules of its workings.
What happens if someone were holding you at gunpoint, telling you to tell the operator that you don't need someone to respond? It works both ways and your situation is minor.

I've responded to a 911 hangup and turning the corner to the street, found a two story house in flames. The owner had called and didn't even have time to explain there was a fire as he was choking from the smoke and had to get out or die.

Friends who are cops have responded to 911 hangups and found the phone ripped out of the wall and a brutal domestic fight going on inside the home.

Advice: Keep anything you don't want seen, out of plain sight........pretty simple.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Since when you declared it an emergency and asked for publicly-supported help. (If you had called your neighbor it would be totally different.)
Never declared an emergency and never asked for publicly-supported help. Like I stated, my wife usually does this as a precaution in case he does not come out of it and has never had a problem with the operator/paramedics forcing themselves into the situation. This is the first time it the situation has happened since we moved to this liberal hippy controlled area though.

You're the one who escalated the issue by refusing them to let them see the person you called an emergency on. They are better qualified to judge his health than you, or perhaps him. Their request was not at all unreasonable. Your refusal was.
Again, never declared an emergency. They are the ones who escalated the issue by forcing their way to my home and into it. My refusal was not unreasonable. No different than an officer showing up at my door uninvited wanting in without a warrant.

If I call because my kid scraped his knee and I want to stay on the line with them until I can verify he didn't break anything in his fall, is that an emergency also?

How about when I have a fender bender and I call 911 to get connected to the area police station (I am from out of the area and don't know the direct number to the police station where I am visiting) to have an officer come out file a report? Am I declaring an emergency then too?

One time I wrote a story about a couple who were pounding up on each other, domestic dispute, the cops arrested both of them. They bailed out and ended up at my desk asking why in the hell did I write about their private fight. And I said the moment you called the cops it stopped being a private fight.
Criminal matters are completely different from medical issues. Are you going to write a story about me now?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
As a firefighter (22yrs), we ARE required by state statute to respond to and investigate every call we are DISPATCHEDto, no matter the time of day, the weather, or anything else.....we get the call, we go.
This is my point. The paramedics/firefighters should never had been dispatched in the first place. I guess my beef is with the operator, not the responders.

What happens if someone were holding you at gunpoint, telling you to tell the operator that you don't need someone to respond? It works both ways and your situation is minor.
Understandable on a return call from a hangup, but when you call them, does not apply IMO.

You want an emergency system?, then you accept the rules of its workings.
I've never accepted any of the rules that are forced upon us as citizens. I doubt many have.

I've responded to a 911 hangup and turning the corner to the street, found a two story house in flames. The owner had called and didn't even have time to explain there was a fire as he was choking from the smoke and had to get out or die.

Friends who are cops have responded to 911 hangups and found the phone ripped out of the wall and a brutal domestic fight going on inside the home.
I completely agree with responding to hangups for the reasons you pointed out. This has nothing to do with the situation in the OP though, as no one hung up.

Advice: Keep anything you don't want seen, out of plain sight........pretty simple.
Not even an issue of anyone seeing anything I have. I have nothing to hide. The issue is one of a form of gov forcing you to do something against your will.
 

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You're missing the point made by Razor and myself......once the call to 911 is made.....no matter what the situation is, there will be a response from someone, police, fire or EMS.

If you are so adverse to a response, instruct your wife not to make the call and don't make it yourself unless you are sure that help is needed.

No public safety personnel enjoy going on non emergency calls, its a waste of time and effort and it places others in jeopardy that may have a concurrent real emergency in some other part of their districts......but they must go if toned out.

I think you're over reacting to a situation that you and your wife created. Next time, relax a little and make a better assessment of the situation before making a call to an emergency line.
 

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so what there say'n is let the person possibly die instead of calling 911
or you can call 911 and now they own your house and the situation. hmmm sound a little on the totalitarian side of things to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I guess we can agree to disagree then. I feel the operator created the situation by sending out a call when one was not asked for and even when she was told not it was not needed.

In all the states I've lived in and the few calls I've personally made to 911, I've never heard, been told, or seen "once the call to 911 is made.....no matter what the situation is, there will be a response from someone, police, fire or EMS. " acted upon.

I've learned yet another lesson on not trusting the "authority" figures in our society as they once again appear not to have common sense in this situation. I'm not saying that none of the public responders (fire/emt/police) have common sense, just seems the population who does is dwindling.

Oh and the point of this thread was not a 'oh woe me" story. It was to expose this practice to others as this is obviously not standard practice in all places. Just as well, it's more of what you accept now, will grow into something you don't, and by that time it will be too late.
 

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I guess we can agree to disagree then. I feel the operator created the situation by sending out a call when one was not asked for and even when she was told not it was not needed.

In all the states I've lived in and the few calls I've personally made to 911, I've never heard, been told, or seen "once the call to 911 is made.....no matter what the situation is, there will be a response from someone, police, fire or EMS. " acted upon.

I've learned yet another lesson on not trusting the "authority" figures in our society as they once again appear not to have common sense in this situation. I'm not saying that none of the public responders (fire/emt/police) have common sense, just seems the population who does is dwindling.

Oh and the point of this thread was not a 'oh woe me" story. It was to expose this practice to others as this is obviously not standard practice in all places. Just as well, it's more of what you accept now, will grow into something you don't, and by that time it will be too late.
Please, name me one of those places where its not standard practice?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Please show in the books where it states that this is standard practice? I have a feeling that if it is in fact, that it is a city or county regulated thing.

No where that I have been before moving here have I called 911 and they were required to respond in some sort or fashion. OP situation has happened numerous times in other places without responders required to show, mainly in Texas.
 

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its in texas too. you will be hard pressed to find civil workers that arent required to show up to a 911 call, even in small podunk towns with nothing but volunteers. In Harris County- I believe on a hang up- the cops are dispatched first, usually with a priority.

Boyscout- you calling 911 is your request for on site assistance. Otherwise theres no reason to call 911. With the plethora o ailaments my mom has- ive had to call 911 several dozen times in my life- mainly for her. Even if she recovers and refuses transport- she still MUST be evaluated by a paramedic team. This is for their own legal good as well as the caller's health. If they left without evaluating someone cause the caller said that its okay now- and then the patient croaks? Liability still falls on the responders. because more often than not- the caller is not a medical expert of any kind.

People pay fines and see jail time for improper use of 911 services.
 

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Please show in the books where it states that this is standard practice? I have a feeling that if it is in fact, that it is a city or county regulated thing.

No where that I have been before moving here have I called 911 and they were required to respond in some sort or fashion. OP situation has happened numerous times in other places without responders required to show, mainly in Texas.
Sorry, you posed the statement...........you prove your point and do your own research.

Do you think in any realm of reality that a public safety agency would take on the liability of NOT responding?

Its law in many places. You show me where its not since you posed the original statement. I work in the field, and have a slight clue as to the responsibilities and liabilities which are virtually universal across this country.
 

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there is a saying, "When you call the police, that is when your trouble really starts"

I imagine every country has their own version of it.

Of course, they have to do their due diligence. Once they have been called they always see to want to know the EXACT DETAILS.

Why blame them, its their job. I figure its like they ask for my ID when i use a credit card. Only a dang fool would object to that, but ,lotta people do.

As for police state, I have lived in a country under martial law. I expect a lot of our members have lived in places where the law was anything but your friend. USA as a police state is mighty high class worries compared to that.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
its in texas too. you will be hard pressed to find civil workers that arent required to show up to a 911 call, even in small podunk towns with nothing but volunteers. In Harris County- I believe on a hang up- the cops are dispatched first, usually with a priority.
In Harris County, I have followed a drunk from the south side of downtown up I-45 through N. Shepard area, back onto 45, back off 45 before he hit a curb and pulled into the Gunspoint mall after he hit a curb and blew a tire. I had 6 calls to 911, passed several units, and had the operator ask me if I was at the right location (that I told them) when the guy stopped at a Diamond Shamrock to grab a few more tall boys, because she was showing a unit on location that was visibly not there. (on an intersection, not hard to find).

This guy was swerving all over the road, shoulder included, running in and out of ditches, running red lights, and almost running over pedestrians. So after 40 minutes, we end up in the parking lot of the mall. It took HPD another 20 minutes to respond to the location. Guess what, there is an HPD substation in the Greenspoint Mall. The officers that responded then acted like I was wasting their time. I decided then to never be "the good guy" again as it's not worth my time. The guy had to have blown high on the BAC, because he could barely walk, much less drive.

Once again, this has nothing to do with hang up calls.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Sorry, you posed the statement...........you prove your point and do your own research.
You're the one who wants an answer, do your own research. Sorry, but I'm not a clerk who will do your dirty work for you.

Do you think in any realm of reality that a public safety agency would take on the liability of NOT responding?
Yes. My wife and I both have had it happen several times. Maybe those involved in those instances were required, but were incompetent.
Its law in many places. You show me where its not since you posed the original statement. I work in the field, and have a slight clue as to the responsibilities and liabilities which are virtually universal across this country.
My original statement was based on real life experiences, not a handbook. Thanks for your service.
 

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I really don't see the problem. Don't call 911 unless you need it. I understand your wife wasn't sure if he would come out of it or not, but if you make the choice to call a government agency, you need to accept the actions they take as a result. I personally think it's a little selfish to call and stay on the line "just in case". Could that operator have helped someone else who really needed the help during the time your wife was using he/she as a security blanket? I'm not suggesting this person isn't worthy of help, but if the friend needs help, call for help. If he doesn't, don't. Don't call an EMERGENCY number and think your call won't be treated as an emergency.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
WE OWN THE SITUATION at that point, INCLUDING YOUR HOME, and any interference with our duties is considered a felony and you can be arrested and criminally charged for such interference.
You know, something about this really bothers me. Say I'm on my roof and fall off. No damage done, I stand up, brush myself off and go inside to sit down for a few. Now a few minutes later there's a knock on the door. I answer and it's an EMT telling me that they have to come in and check me over because my neighbor saw me fall and called it in.

So from what you are telling me, you now OWN MY HOME because an overly excited neighbor thought they needed to dial 911?

Sorry, but I'm the only one making payments on my home.

I can't seem to come up with anything requiring a physical response from a 911 call, which unless proven otherwise, would be an unlawful enter on my property as I did not invite them and I told them to leave.

Colorado Revised Statute 18-4-504 (C.R.S. § 18-4-504) states: "A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another" and that third degree criminal trespass "is a class 5 felony if the person trespasses on premises so classified as agricultural land with the intent to commit a felony thereon." According the C.R.S. § 18-4-504:

(1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.

(2) Third degree criminal trespass is a class 1 petty offense, but:

(a) It is a class 3 misdemeanor if the premises have been classified by the county assessor for the county in which the land is situated as agricultural land pursuant to section 39-1-102 (1.6), C.R.S.; and

(b) It is a class 5 felony if the person trespasses on premises so classified as agricultural land with the intent to commit a felony thereon.
If this is in fact the case, the Castle Doctrine may even play into it as an act of trespass makes that person then a criminal.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I really don't see the problem. Don't call 911 unless you need it. I understand your wife wasn't sure if he would come out of it or not, but if you make the choice to call a government agency, you need to accept the actions they take as a result. I personally think it's a little selfish to call and stay on the line "just in case". Could that operator have helped someone else who really needed the help during the time your wife was using he/she as a security blanket? I'm not suggesting this person isn't worthy of help, but if the friend needs help, call for help. If he doesn't, don't. Don't call an EMERGENCY number and think your call won't be treated as an emergency.
I completely agree and have told my wife so. I didn't even know she called until I heard her behind me talking to the operator.
 

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Hmmmm....

You (or your wife) called 911.

The EMTs, Police, and Firefighters are REQUIRED BY LAW to come to your assistance.

And you DID ask for their assistance, the moment you picked up that phone and dialed 911. Once you have called 911 it is treated as an emergency, and you stating that it is no longer an emergency after having called 911 simply doesn't fly.

Think of it from THEIR point of view. They get a call to come to a location for a possible seizure (which could mean really anything from drug overdose, to stabbing, to gunshot, to just a seizure) and they are met at the door by someone who will not let them in. What are they supposed to think?

Maybe 911 responders aren't required to respond to all 911 calls, but I have never heard of that. Here if you call 911 you are guaranteed to have at least an ambulance and a few cops show up. And yes when you call 911 you waive your rights and basically give the cops a warrant to enter the premises.

Here the cops use that as an excuse to search for signs of drug activity. My neighbor called 911 and the cops just barged in and started tearing the place apart looking for drugs. They busted into his gun cabinet and too some guns from him too. Not once did they even check on my neighbor to see if he was ok.
 
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