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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Everyone has said or heard someone else say "he/she is a good shot". What most people mean when they say this is that a particular person is good at hitting a targets, usually on a static range. When was the last time you heard someone say "he/she is a good at shooting people who are trying to kill him or others"? Seldom I would imagine because it just does not happen every day and if it does seldom more than once or twice to police much less civilians.

For the vast majority of shooters there level of skill is based on offensive prowess. By that I mean they shoot at targets when they are good and ready, or maybe even one someone else's cue, someone that is not trying to kill them. Even today many police officers still do not have the benefit of Simmuntion or air soft to replicate having to draw and fire their sidearm in direct response to someone shooting at them. People that have actually been involved in shootings are usualy much more humble when it comes to Monday morning quarterbacking over the percentage of hits make by police in actual shootings.

The most basic example is shooting free throws in basketball vs from the field. Even with nobody in their way how often do we see great basketball players miss free throws? Pretty often. When you are on offense you normally only have to concentrate on one thing and usually have the luxury of starting when you decide to. This is a massive departure than defense in which you have to counter attack as you defend or make defensive maneuvers that start when someone else decides to take action.

What physically has to take place for you to shoot another person? It's simple really, you just have to pull the trigger while the barrel is in line with the person. Notice that there is nothing about the need for sights to accomplish this. We know that the vast majority of shooting occur inside of seven yards with many actually occurring at 3-5 feet. If I hold my Glock 23 in my hand and extend it in front of me I measure 36-37 inches. So if I attempt to use my sights at an distance of 3-5 feet I would essentially be handing my gun to my attacker. Realize I am only trying to make the point that if you train and believe that the only way you can put accurate rounds on target is by using the sites you put yourself at a sever disadvantage. The idea is to just get the gun between your and the bad guy and pull the trigger. Repeat as needed. If depending on the totality of the situation you have the time and distance to view and use your sites it would only make good sense to do so.

Whether boxing, knife fighting or shooting it is our natural response to face our opponent head on even to the point that when viewed from the rear of either person the view of the other is severely limited. Keep this in mind when drawing from the holster. If the trigger is pulled when the pistol is outside your silhouette misses are probable. For this reason train yourself to keep your pistol close to the body during the draw to increase the amount of time and space the barrel is between your and the attacker. Avoid "swinging up" to the target and work on getting the gun between you and the treat. Much more important and getting the sights between you and the threat.

Practicing this with air soft will do wonders for your defensive handgun skills. You will also find out that you will likely trade rounds with your attacker since once again it is "defense". Another thing that force on force does is humble people out. Few people look smooth when defending against an attack. This seems to go against the grain of people who like to pat themselves on the back over pretty paper targets. The best recommendation is a mixture of both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Most people that have been involved in a shooting will tell you that their training was to the reality of a shooting what driving to work is to driving NASCAR. The mechanics are pretty much the same but that is where similarities end.

The vast majority of shooting competitions and informal shooting sessions use and audible cue to signal the shooter to draw and fire. This is very different from the street where shootings usually prompted by physical movement. Why do we still train this way? Sound may be a target identifier but alone should never cause you to fire. The first thing you need to be able to articulate for your defense is an immanent physical threat. There are many ways to simulate this on indoor and outdoor ranges. If the targets are not mechanical then attach a line to them and have a buddy yank on it moving the target. Teach yourself to respond to the preparatory and execution movements of someone drawing a weapon on you.

How many people that carry in the line of duty or have a CCW spend a day on the range shooting without holstering their pistol? The logical progression of carrying any tool for self defence is Selection-Carry-Deployment-Use. Too many folks get caught up in the selection phase trying to find the perfect pistol that will make them better. Some folks spend time learning to run the gun. Two hand shooting, one handed shooting, reloads etc. Very few take a legitimate inventory of their carry options and even less practice deployment under less than perfect circumstances. Their is a need for open hand skills that allow you to create time and distance where none exist. Time and time again we see students that shoot well melt down as soon as they have to draw from concealment even without added stressors. Hands down the most popular carry position is behind the strong side hip. When was the last time, if ever, you practiced drawing you gun from this position while seated in a vehicle with your concealment garment and seat belt buckled over it? You may want to before you need to.

There are a couple of invaluable things you can purchase beside ammo to increase your combat effectiveness with your pistol. The first in getting a Rings Manufacturing blue gun trainer of the gun you carry. It will allow you to practice drawing, weapon handling, room clearing, and weapons retention etc while enjoying total safety that is visibly verifiable by anyone. The second is to get an air soft copy of your gun if available. Even if it is one of the models that needs to be cocked it can offer great training value. Care must be taken to insure that the live gun is not in proximity to the training environment. With the help of a few like minded friends and some common sense scenarios you will soon see that under stress the fundamentals or marksmanship exit stage right as soon as the you know what hits the fan. Eye protection is the bare minimum when using air soft. The little plastic BBs can travel in excess of 300 per second, enough for a valuable pain penalty that discourages mistakes.

Your gun is not a talisman that can keep you safe. It is worthless without your dedication, awareness, determination and skill, and lots of luck.

If you like target shooting as I do, by all means keep doing it. Just set aside time to hone your other defensive skill sets that compliment your overall protection plan.
 

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I sure do appreciate this advice. I am a baby with guns. I never thought I'd even want one around me. And to be truthful right now it is locked up except for when my son or husband works with me or until I finish my training classes. I have often wondered about what you are talking about and laughed to myself when I thought = if a bad guy comes what am I going to do? Ask him politely to stand still while I shoot him! I don't think that will work. So, I am going to follow your advice and add practice with the blue gun trainer and the air soft copy - whatever that is. But, I promise I'll do it. Thanks
 

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I learned how to kill People in 'Nam, I also learned what hot metal feels like striking my flesh. Thanks but I don't need anymore training. In addition, I have taught my kids as much as I can on certain skills. Trained or not, it comes down to the individual when it gets that far.
 

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I got thrown off a range for drawing from my holster. I was told it's not safe. SO I practice at home while dry.
 

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I got thrown off a range for drawing from my holster. I was told it's not safe. SO I practice at home while dry.
Its hard to find a range that will let you practice real world situations. Ive found a nice place in the National forest that allows me to do movement drills and what ever I want.

After my recent 4 day class with Larry Vickers. It really opened my eyes on how I had been practicing bad habits and not getting any better.

I would recommend people get some real world Instruction and Practice....Even if its at home Dry firing. Most your your Drills can be done dry fire at home to save money on the range. It sometimes helps to have a training buddy.

No one stands still in a gun fight...If you do your chances of survival go way down... Practice shooting on the move. It might save your life.

This Thread is Right ON!!
 

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I'd like to practice draw and shoot scenarios, but any range near me has 'no holster carry' rules, except cops on qualification training/testing.
Its a moot point here anyway, as carrying is illegal in Jeersey.

Similarly, getting an unarmed technique to work is easy in training, but pretty damn hard in a fight / roll.
 

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I learned how to kill People in 'Nam, I also learned what hot metal feels like striking my flesh. Thanks but I don't need anymore training. In addition, I have taught my kids as much as I can on certain skills. Trained or not, it comes down to the individual when it gets that far.
with all due respect i have a differing opinion. as a combat veteran myself i truly believe that continuous training is what has kept me alive in more than a few situations i would rather forget. by repetition and non stop training the movements become instinctual and remain second nature versus resting on the knowledge that the skills you once utilized daily for your survival will keep you alive...our minds simply do not work that way. my career as a professional soldier is finally a memory but i can assure you that all of the elite teams are training, training and training some more when they are not deployed.
 

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I've got a Glock 17 airsoft gun that's been sitting since I got my first "real" pistol. Glad to have a use for it again as the damned thing cost me about $400.

BTW, for those of you who've never used one, airsoft guns can friggin destroy someone. Way worse than getting shot with a paintball gun, IMO. I lit up a friend of mine and we thought he was gonna need a ride to the hostpital. I used my airsorft gun to train my dogs. The cats got shot because ... well, they were cats and cats don't seem to learn not to do certain things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
with all due respect i have a differing opinion. as a combat veteran myself i truly believe that continuous training is what has kept me alive in more than a few situations i would rather forget. by repetition and non stop training the movements become instinctual and remain second nature versus resting on the knowledge that the skills you once utilized daily for your survival will keep you alive...our minds simply do not work that way. my career as a professional soldier is finally a memory but i can assure you that all of the elite teams are training, training and training some more when they are not deployed.
I train in more than deadly force so that I have options other than taking another human life. Just one guy talking.

Yes airsoft will draw blood and has chipped teeth. In classes I require at least googles.

One of my favorite things to do when teaching room clearing is to shoot people in the hands when they lead into a doorway with them. They usually dropped the gun and bend over and then you just light them up.
 

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I train in more than deadly force so that I have options other than taking another human life. Just one guy talking.

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the absolute last thing I want to do is make that split second decision to take another life, as easy as it is to say I take no joy nor sorrow from such actions it simply is not true, not a day goes by that I do not think about the human lives I have taken, I wish that on no-one. I definitely believe in deadly force as a last resort but that is not the discussion we are / were having.

Regardless of the skills you posess (be it defensive firearm useage or kung-fool) in my opinion they are nearly worthless in a life or death situation if you do not regularly practice them so that they become instinctual. NO matter how anyone 'thinks' they will act or rather re-act when the proverbial **** hits the fan, when the adrenaline kicks in full force and you have to overcome your minds natural reactions to fight or flight and stick your head up and start fighting, I can tell you first hand (and I think you will agree as it is obvious you have more than read about tactical training) that how most people 'think' they will react versus how they truly react when the bullets start flying are two very different things....UNLESS they have been conditioned and trained through repetitious practice. Just another guy talking.
 

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Finally had time to read your post Mercop. Good info. I've said the same before in a different thread that addresses the issue:

Twice a year my job puts on a week long (voluntary) tactical combat pistol training week that has those who attend shoot at the indoor police range, an outdoors facility range,CAPS judgmental training on a video simulator using the firearm and the ammo you carry on duty, low light shooting, no light shooting, etc.

At the end of the training week (twice per year) we have to qualify with our side arms and the shotgun. I really feel that my "game" has improved tremendously since they've implemented this training program and I am much more confident in my combat skills and abilities.

Needless to say, that I take my own Glock 22 to the range every chance I have to do some shooting on my own and that is valuable time getting to know your weapon, your gear, your ammo and your marksmanship. That being said, I'd like to reiterate that you can't put a price on professional training, that teaches you aspects of combat that you will never experience on your own at the range, plinking away at your target. All the skills I learned are transferable and applicable in my personal life and will be tremendously valuable when social order breaks down and ordinary people will be faced with extraordinary situations and impossible decisions.

If you can spare the money, take a combat training course. They are worth much more then you'll ever pay.

The next best thing would be training for and competing in pistol shooting competitions such as PPC or IPSC.

Combat Shooting Simulator-Video (7min.)

 

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i have shot the caps system before..i did not like some of the habits that i had formed over the years of shooting
they made start with pistol in the holster under on jackets to start the drills..with a loud noise and starter pistol shot that signal the fight was on
they put on flashing police light and people fighting in the background with the man or women saying to start the fight ...iam going to kill you .you ssssnb and then there was a loud pistol shot comeing out of a diff area of the room area
they did diff things to use to get us to drawing and hitting the target on a reflex typle drill
sometimes we started with a clip broad in our hands and writeing down something or sitting at a table in a fast food joint to start the drills
the part that made me the madest at myself was how supid i got at the monment that the shooting started and was rubbernecking to see what was going on at the time
i have learned some bad habits as all who carry a weapon for a liveing
what did i take for those training session with a good teacher was that there was allways room for inprovement in our skills
do i like haveing to hold someone in my sights when i draw my pistol ..H- NO .BUT WILL I TAKE A LIFE IF NEED BE ...H-YES IF I HAVE TO
 

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one of my old teachers used to let you walk into a room and not look up to see if there is anyone hideing in the ceiling area he would shoot you in the head with a painball gun to remind you to clear the whole the area top to bottom before you go into a next room to clear it
allso he would do stairwells the same way he would hide in the some parts of the stairwell and hit in the head with a paintball to remind you to look at the a stairwell for a bad guys hideing points
to this day i still walk into a stairwell i look at the top of the stairwell and walk around to the down side to see if someone there before i start up the stair well
my girlfriend thinks i nuts at time when going into places and start looking at diff things when walking into a place when off the the clock
 

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10-4 on the bad habits. I am one of the "losers" who stays and shoots with the next group (and the one after) at qualifying, if there is room on the shooting line, even if I qualify on the first try (and I always do...lol).

We are always offered the option of staying and shooting until we hurt and I've managed to get rid of a lot of bad habits, and to pick up really good ones, through incessant repetition.

I am a firm believer in muscle memory and in the theory that in a gun fight, no matter what plans you have in your head, you will do exactly what you've done a thousand times in training, even before you realize you're doing it.

When I carried a revolver, it was even forbidden to pocket your speed loader at the loading barrel. Loading for duty was to be done from a holstered position, as if you were doing a reload under fire. The speed loader was to be dumped on the floor (or in the barrel) without worrying where it went and everyone had to go to low ready and do "room awareness" and shoulder check before holstering.

That(doing everything as you would in a gun battle) became part of the mantra after a few cops died in gun fights because instead of doing a fast (revolver) reload they dumped the spent cases in their hand and were trying to put them in their pocket as they did in training.

Train as you fight, fight as you train!
 

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the thing that i like about our old trainer... he was the typle that if work in plain cloths you had to show up in the cloths that you used for work... for me that met suit and tie with dress shoes with body armor and duty weapon with all items carried on you for work
i carrie a flashlight on my belt along with my extras mag
he would jam you up with a dummy round loaded into a magazine when you would hand him you mags to load when we had to do the oh..s... my weapon has a problem drill
he would put a dummy round somewhere your mag and you had to do a mag change dureing a drill and you would hit the dummy round and you had to clear it and get back into the fight
i think i remember the most was the fight form the floor up drill ..where you had to start flat on your back and fight your way to your fight and get away for the target and still keep shooting back at the target
he would ask you how many shots did you fire when the big tackleing dummy would come out the door at you and would have to tell him about the number ...you could be a round low or a round high after the count ..if not you had to buy the first case of beer when the training was done at the end of training partys the we had
at one time i was up to four cases of beer that i owned to the party drink fund
we had one guy who did not carrie a extra mag for his pistol and he got his butt handed to him that day
i have a old suit for a goodwill store that i use for training with the guy
he retired out about a year ago i miss him a lot he kept you on your toes
 
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