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retired cop here.

So feel free to ignore my old man advise.

But RETREAT to where you were and CALL 9/11

Then any action you take makes you at least a better good guy.

And you do know most 'choke & pukes' 'shop & robs' have cameras.

So whatever you did ,or did not was likely recorded.

Also note ,not inconceivable there was a patrol officer outside looking in !.

That should pucker your butt !.
What would you tell 911 though? "Upset guy with gun at the convenience store" seems like a recipe for disaster.
 

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I don't post much, but thought I'd see what other people's thoughts are on this experience I had.

Over the weekend, I went into my small town convenience store. There's a dude at the cashier's desk who looks pretty shady. I go to the restroom, and when I come out, he's having words with the girl running the register. We are the only two customers in the building. In waving his arms over whatever he's upset about, his shirt rises enough I see a subcompact semi (appeared to be a Glock) worn OWB but partially covered by a shirt. I'm not sure if "showing" it was an accident or an attempt to intimidate the girl at the counter.

I'm 8 to 10 feet behind him. I'm pretty sure he has no clue I've come out of the restroom. I have my CC piece in my right front pocket, my hand on the grip and ready to pull. I've made the decision if that Glock comes out, mine is coming out. I quietly take a couple steps to the side to gain partial concealment (not cover) behind a rack of beef jerky and to have an angle that won't hit the girl if I have to shoot. Thankfully, he finally slaps his hand on the counter, walks out and drives off. I buy a soda, don't say a word about it, and leave.

Lying in bed that night, I pondered. If he'd put his hand on it, I was pulling. My Monday morning quarterbacking of my own plan is thus... Once he pulled the piece on that girl, I'd have had every legal right in my state to fire, and that was in fact my intent at the time. No "Hands up drop the gun!" movie BS, just action.

Upon further analysis, and having recently just read "Violence of Mind" by Varg Freeborn (excellent book by the way), I wondered if that would have been the right thing? It would have been an easy shot to the point of being almost execution like. From the book, I've defined my mission as keeping myself safe and alive and available to provide for my family (not in jail or destitute from paying legal defenses), while also keeping them safe and alive. In keeping with that mission, I'm second guessing my better bet would have been to pull, aim, and not shoot unless he started to turn towards me or fired at the cashier (but then she could be dead). Let him rob it and walk away because a few hundred bucks isn't worth me taking a life when I wasn't truly doing it in self defense. Maybe legal in my state, but when the day comes I meet God face to face, could I honestly say I had no other choice? Then again, if I didn't shoot immediately, and he kills the cashier, her death would be on my conscience and I'd have to live with that.

Thankfully, nothing happened and these are just hypothetical thoughts while trying to drift off to sleep. I long ago made the decision I would have zero issues pulling the trigger in defense of myself or my loved ones, but this felt somewhere in between.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my experience and my thoughts. I don't think there's a 100% right answer to this one. Maybe a legal answer. Maybe a tactically sound answer. But not a RIGHT answer. Or maybe the right answer is different for everyone. Who knows....
Once he produces and points a gun it is time to shoot assuming you have a clear shot.

If you do not plan to shoot the guy before he fires and call 911 from the car or you need to leave before he pulls the gun OR go in the back and hide while calling 911.


Waiting for the shooting to start is a good way to get you and her killed. Drawing or shooting before he pulls the gun is a trip to prison.

Another possible tactic would have been to make yourself BUT not your gun known by standing in line BEHIND him by a good 10 foot
Social distance so you are behind him directly opposite the clerk. That way he knows somebody is there. This would put him in a position where one person can get away/ call cops and has seen him. He can shoot her or you , but the odds of one getting to cover or away or even pulling a gun ( clerks often have one behind the counter) are pretty good.

Another option might be to text 911 or call 911 and leave phone open so they send cops. If a cop is close buy and pulls into the store parking lot, a lot of guys may change mind. And if he doesn't or if they take too long you can still shoot him in the back if he pulls.
 

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Combat marxism Now!
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It would have been an easy shot to the point of being almost execution like.

but when the day comes I meet God face to face, could I honestly say I had no other choice? Then again, if I didn't shoot immediately, and he kills the cashier, her death would be on my conscience and I'd have to live with that.
Been there a few times. Had an incident with my knife wielding neighbor that very nearly cost him his life.

1) I've never hurt another human being, and it is my sincere hope to go to my grave, never having hurt anyone.
2) Situations unfold fast, accurate assessment and thinking is critical. If it de-escalates, then stand down.
3) Many self defense shooters (and for that matter, cops that shoot criminals) end up in therapy. (the "why" should be obvious)
4) A gun is a tool. Come to find out, it's a necessary one in many locations. There are a whole bunch of people devoid of empathy and willing to do anything.

On a trip out of Savannah, GA: I'm an old, bald, white man driving the white work pickup truck Southbound on I-95 in light traffic. 2 thugs in a Camry start to really harass me matching my speed from 10 to 94mph (the truck's top speed) , the passenger is clearly fumbling with a pistol. They did not like the heavy equipment directed their way, and slammed on the brakes.

I'm 100% sure they were going to shoot. Maybe the fact that the media had recently labeled "pickup trucks as racist" was a factor.

I can't say with 100% certainty what their motivation was. I can say that their behavior clearly telegraphed evil intent. The driver decided it was a game he could not win.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
To be clear, and as somebody said earlier, this was a non-situation. However, it was a non-situation that showed signs of escalating into a true situation.

Regarding call 911, phone was in the truck. Dumb I know. Bring my pistol, leave my phone in the drink cubby.

No cop nearby. This store sits about a quarter mile outside of town, which is about 4,000 people. Just big enough to have a couple fast food joints and a Walgreens. My truck and his gold Pontiac Sunfire with a black spare tire wheel on the passenger side front were the only two vehicles (funny how I would remember that, but I'm a car guy and I clearly remember doing the opposite of admiring that vehicle).

Again, I don't know for sure if exposing his weapon was inadvertent or an intimidation tactic. He maybe was just an upset open carrying dude. I just saw the weapon and heard his upset demeanor, so I tried to place myself in a position to act but didn't say or do jack squat as it wasn't yet a situation that called for any type of action, and intervention at that point would likely just have escalated it unnecessarily.

I should also mention that I probably categorized him as a criminal type when I walked in. In the short glance I had of him from the side, I saw neck/face tattoos and metal in his face like eyebrow/nose/lip type piercings. Maybe that was unfair of me and he's actually an altar boy. I have friends with plenty of ink and they're good people.

Thankfully it turned out to be a big fat nothing except a topic for us to examine, discuss, and debate on the intrawebs. And it's an interesting discussion too with opinions ranging from one end of the spectrum to the other.
 

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What would you tell 911 though? "Upset guy with gun at the convenience store" seems like a recipe for disaster.
Uh yea,exactly why YOU thought this could result in your taking a life.

Otherwise,walk out and mind your own business.

If your "getting ready to shoot".

Then I am pretty sure the police should be on their way there.

And do note,as a retired cop who spent LOTS of time in & outside the 'choke & pukes' [ that was all that was open ].

I can tell you that YES,people do not look outside to see the local county mountie [ or local cop = me ] pulling up and LOOKING IN ,prior to entering.

Worst case scenario ' you draw and drop the perp about to shoot the clerk'.

But the officer has a point of view that does not allow him to see the perp draw = so he shoots you.

I always expect the worst case scenario,and work from there.
 

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To be clear, and as somebody said earlier, this was a non-situation. However, it was a non-situation that showed signs of escalating into a true situation.

Regarding call 911, phone was in the truck. Dumb I know. Bring my pistol, leave my phone in the drink cubby.

No cop nearby. This store sits about a quarter mile outside of town, which is about 4,000 people. Just big enough to have a couple fast food joints and a Walgreens. My truck and his gold Pontiac Sunfire with a black spare tire wheel on the passenger side front were the only two vehicles (funny how I would remember that, but I'm a car guy and I clearly remember doing the opposite of admiring that vehicle).

Again, I don't know for sure if exposing his weapon was inadvertent or an intimidation tactic. He maybe was just an upset open carrying dude. I just saw the weapon and heard his upset demeanor, so I tried to place myself in a position to act but didn't say or do jack squat as it wasn't yet a situation that called for any type of action, and intervention at that point would likely just have escalated it unnecessarily.

I should also mention that I probably categorized him as a criminal type when I walked in. In the short glance I had of him from the side, I saw neck/face tattoos and metal in his face like eyebrow/nose/lip type piercings. Maybe that was unfair of me and he's actually an altar boy. I have friends with plenty of ink and they're good people.

Thankfully it turned out to be a big fat nothing except a topic for us to examine, discuss, and debate on the intrawebs. And it's an interesting discussion too with opinions ranging from one end of the spectrum to the other.
In my response before i forgot to say one thing nobody else has remembered to say

GOOD SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!

Was this probably “nothing” yes. Heck the girl at the store may have been in the wrong for all you know and the guy was just having a bad day. Or it could have been her brother and they yell at each other all the time.

But you NOTICED. You actually made the guy as armed and made a plan. You also had a gun in case this was that one in a 1000 time things go south.

We are debating holding back with your gun ready , running out the back etc. but what we are not talking about is getting shot as a bystander because you where on your phone playing candy crush or finding a tnder date instead of paying attention to the dude next to you. And that is exactly what would happen to most people if that little scenario went south.

I was in a store that was robbed by a couple of guys ( one dressed as a ninja no joke ). I grabbed too ladies shopping and guided them ( and myself ) out the back and down the loading doc then found a guy with a phone( this was before everybody had phones , grabbed it and called police. I even pushed the one girl down a ladder when she started screaming “ omg we all gonna die “.

I was unarmed at the time. In fact i didn’t even own a gun then. But had i had one i think i would have done the same thing.
 

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Yes guy acting aggressive at clerk and has a concealed glock , tell them what position. And describe him and what he is wearing so they do not shoot you bu mistake.
So, you just turned this non-issue into a potential deadly one for everyone involved. I simply do not trust the information connectivity between 911, the dispatcher, and the responding LEO enough for the situation described in the OP. YMMV.
 

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Great thread, many great posts. I’ve carried concealed in the US, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala and Honduras. One never knows what he would do in a situation but I have no LEO training and no military training. Its was and is my plan to protect my wife and myself and retreat to safety. Too many variables to consider.
 

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One thing to add. If the guy at the counter drew his gun and pointed it at the clerk., he is a threat, deadly force is apparrent, she had the potential of 1/4 sec to live. He is also a threat to you.Maybe the potential of 2 seconds to live. If he doesn't draw his gun, there is no deadly force threat.
 

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Been there a few times. Had an incident with my knife wielding neighbor that very nearly cost him his life.

1) I've never hurt another human being, and it is my sincere hope to go to my grave, never having hurt anyone.
2) Situations unfold fast, accurate assessment and thinking is critical. If it de-escalates, then stand down.
3) Many self defense shooters (and for that matter, cops that shoot criminals) end up in therapy. (the "why" should be obvious)
4) A gun is a tool. Come to find out, it's a necessary one in many locations. There are a whole bunch of people devoid of empathy and willing to do anything.

On a trip out of Savannah, GA: I'm an old, bald, white man driving the white work pickup truck Southbound on I-95 in light traffic. 2 thugs in a Camry start to really harass me matching my speed from 10 to 94mph (the truck's top speed) , the passenger is clearly fumbling with a pistol. They did not like the heavy equipment directed their way, and slammed on the brakes.

I'm 100% sure they were going to shoot. Maybe that the fact that the media had recently labeled "pickup trucks as racist" was a factor.

I can't say with 100% certainty what their motivation was. I can say that their behavior clearly telegraphed evil intent. The driver decided it was a game he could not win.
Im a (Shaved) bald White guy,I drive a White long bed,king cab,,Guess that makes me racist...scary times...
 

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Huntsville police officer William Ben Darby convicted of murder for shooting Jeffrey Parker
Darby arrived at Parker's house where the first arriving officer was talking Parker down from suicide. Parker was holding a gun to his head when Darby arrived. Darby says he told Parker to drop the gun 3 times.11 seconds after entering the house, Darby shot Parker. Darby testified he saw the gun move and was protecting himself and the other officers as all Parker had to do was point and shoot. The juidge removed immunity from Darby prior to the trial.

The jury deliberated 2 hours and found him guilty of murder. The first arriving officer said she did not feel threatened and was difusing the situation. She testified against Darby..

BTW Darby was white. There were no demonstrations. The Police Chief said he was shocked at the verdict. The Mayor said he disagreed with the verdict

I posted this to show that while one officer didn't feel threatened, another officer did when there was a loaded gun in Parker's hand and refusing to drop it when told to. It takes less than 1/2 second to point and shoot.. While not feeling threatened, the first officer could very easily been shot. However, the prosecuting attny and the jury did not. It would probably go the same way in a CC situation. Be careful pay attention to what's happening. Get out of danger if possible or be aware of the risks.

 

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KOAD; FOAD; ESAD
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Lots of states have removed the 'Duty To Retreat' from encounters..legally..that doesnt mean if you can get away you shouldnt..BUT,Every single situation is different and unless I was standing there I never criticize an Officers decision..because you CANT KNOW FOR SURE...The Officer who shot the freak who killed my partner said "I always load my cylinder 38-357-38-357"..WTF?..dude is alive because the round that hit was a .38..in the liver..[thats why I will never willingly load a .38 in a defense gun]..however,I was around the corner of the building and didnt SEE it so as far as I will ever address is the Officer who took that guy out of the scene did his job...returned fire and put him down..not his fault his revolver jammed,maybe he would have gotten a 357 into the trash next shot..I hope so..the loading isnt my concern except to tell me .38's are for crap..as far as Huntsville is concerned,thats a political verdict..JMO
 

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Darby arrived at Parker's house where the first arriving officer was talking Parker down from suicide. Parker was holding a gun to his head when Darby arrived. Darby says he told Parker to drop the gun 3 times.11 seconds after entering the house, Darby shot Parker. Darby testified he saw the gun move and was protecting himself and the other officers as all Parker had to do was point and shoot. The juidge removed immunity from Darby prior to the trial.
....
1. Why is a cop AT a "suicide" before any such event occurred?
2. What type of moron DROPS a firearm? A Hollyfool.
 

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What would Mal do
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imagine for just a second, that the guy at the counter was the father of the female clerk...that he was upset about a family matter, or with the owner of the store where his daughter was working, how it was being run, etc...and low and behold, you just shot that girl's daddy!
We had a standind scenario story for CWP classes...you're walking down the sidewalk, glance into an alley, see one guy just finish fighting with another and now has a gun pointed in his face. You rush in, with your shiney new CWP all ready to be a hero..turns out the one you thought was the victim was in fact the perp and you just shot, or distracted an undercover cop.

so, yes, plus 1 for situational awareness and observations. And I don't fault anyone for their decisions to try and help. I'm just saying that my "pre-meditated plan" does not include drawing my weapon in a majority of any scenario I can imagine.,,the cost of being wrong, or being on the wrong side of the law..is just too great.
 

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1. Good situational awareness.

2. I’m not calling the cops for this. There are arguments and disagreements everyday. The cops do not have to get involved in everything. At least not in the world I want to live in. Most people are adults and even when they get upset they move on. Calling the cops can escalate a small problem into something that gets out of hand way to fast. In my eyes the gun alone does not make this a cop situation. I encourage people carrying and calling the cops on a person who is carrying is counterintuitive to me. I would not want someone to see my gun and think “time to call the cops” just because of the gun.

3. While I would be glad to know that the guy had a gun if I were in your position, man with a holstered gun + disagreement doesn’t = potential shooting about to take place in my mind. (This equation would change if there was an indication that he was a junkie or something along those lines, looking shady does not equal criminal in my eyes though. I know a lot of people who look shady that are some of the most upstanding people I know)

4. I think you did the right thing. Hang back and let them sort it out. No reason to get involved unless it escalates to violence. They were both adults. It ended as 99.9% of disagreement do.... with nothing happening. But it was still good enough on your part to be aware of what could happen in case it was that extremely rare exception

5. If he had pulled the gun...... that would be a nightmare decision and there are too many variables in play that only the person involve could be aware of that would dictate how I would handle it. Based on what you wrote I would have my pistol out but there are variables that I could not be aware of since I was not there that would impact whether I would shoot or not. Once you shoot there is no end to how it could go. Look at the cop who shot the 16 year old girl attacking another with a knife. Even in that scenario the shooter (cop) is receiving flak for his actions. Not trying to cop out, just too many variables that only you who are there could be aware of (maybe on a subconscious level) that can not be expressed in a written post.


But in the end it ended as it should. While I think it ended as it should I will never complain about people posting scenarios like this because I do think it is beneficial to get people thinking about these things.
 

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My old man has a different take on this than I do, but he is held to a different standard than I am. (State troopers in Oklahoma seem to believe they have a duty to act, even retired, though I can find no state statute to that effect. While I haven't met and discussed this with every Trooper in the state, every Trooper I know has indicated this is their belief also. That their training places a duty on them, even in retirement, to do use their training to the best of their ability in any situation.)

There was an incident here, several years ago, where a woman shot and killed a man at a convenience store here. She was a conceal carry holder who thought she was saving a man being robbed at the gas pumps. Only she wasn't. She shot a federal officer in the act of arresting a felon with outstanding warrants. I dunno if she is out of prison yet.

The old man DRILLED into me for months after that to NEVER read anything into a situation. If I see something my ONLY duty is to protect myself. Now ... Could I live with myself if someone died and I could have prevented it?? I doubt it very seriously. Hopefully that is a question I will never find out the answer to.

It is NOT in me to seconds guess what anyone does in a situation where they have a split second to decide what is right or wrong ... Especially when they've endangered their own life to protect another. But there is a huge amount of value in discussing these situations. I value everyone's input. It is interesting to see how many different ways there are of "seeing" a situation there are. Nothing is ever quite as cut and dried as it seems ...
 

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imagine for just a second, that the guy at the counter was the father of the female clerk...that he was upset about a family matter, or with the owner of the store where his daughter was working, how it was being run, etc...and low and behold, you just shot that girl's daddy!
We had a standind scenario story for CWP classes...you're walking down the sidewalk, glance into an alley, see one guy just finish fighting with another and now has a gun pointed in his face. You rush in, with your shiney new CWP all ready to be a hero..turns out the one you thought was the victim was in fact the perp and you just shot, or distracted an undercover cop.

so, yes, plus 1 for situational awareness and observations. And I don't fault anyone for their decisions to try and help. I'm just saying that my "pre-meditated plan" does not include drawing my weapon in a majority of any scenario I can imagine.,,the cost of being wrong, or being on the wrong side of the law..is just too great.
If the guy pulls a gun on the clerk who cares if he owns the store or is her dad. Its not ok for employers or fathers to shoot people.
 
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