Survivalist Forum banner

Debt Doom - Analysis of inflation, federal debt, and the federal reserve

1910 Views 39 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  SoJ_51
7
I present an effort post on debt doom. This analysis is intended is to help non-finance people (such as myself) to understand the most basic mechanisms of inflation, the status of US Federal finances, and the role that the Federal Reserve Bank plays. We all know about usdebtclock.org and can see that federal debt is at least 30 trillion and rising. We know intuitively that this is a bad thing but might not know exactly what the consequences of that debt are. This is a data driven story of how the US debt is nearly certain to spiral out of control due to inflationary feedback loops.

I am not the first person to come to this conclusion or present these ideas. These are all my own original thoughts that were influenced by many sources that brought my attention to this coming crisis. The initial drafts of this were more focused on the coming recession but it became clear while writing that the next recession is just the opening act to something much much more dire.

I welcome any feedback on what I have written. I will try to clarify any concepts or correct any of my misinterpretations or errors. My goal was to make these ideas as accessible and simple as possible. I intentionally made many gross simplifications and sweeping generalizations that I think are appropriate for this level of discussion. I tried to keep this report focused on inflation and federal debt so I ignored a lot of complexity. This is because I don't live in the financial world and I don't want to spend weeks researching things. The sooner people are able to see this coming the sooner they can take steps to prepare. If you want to expand further on any of the concepts I talk about and account for the complexity that I ignored, that would be a welcome discussion that I am interested to hear.

This post does not offer much preparation advice, that is separate issue for another day.

This post is organized into 6 parts that build on each other. Part one talks about inflation and banks. Part two examines the federal budget. Part three is about the federal reserve bank. Part four is the debt doom model. Part five is the conclusion and part six talks about what to expect going forward.

Part I: Inflation and a normal bank
Inflation is a measure of the buying power of the dollar over time. I think most people have an intuitive sense of inflation. That level of understanding is all that is needed for this report. The inflation data in chart 1 comes from usinflationcalculator.com that they get from the BLS. There are other sources of inflation data out there and inflation is different across the various economic sectors. Right now inflation is 8%. This data gives a starting point for discussing some possible future outcomes.

Chart 1: Inflation


Inflation plays an important role in deciding how to manage extra money. Imagine you are a very simple finance 101 traditional bank owner. You have deposits of dollars sitting in the vault. In an inflationary environment those dollars sitting in that pile will be worth less in the future. Your bank has fixed costs like paying employees, heating bills, electricity bills, rent, pens on little chains, etc. The cost of all of these things are getting more expensive due to inflation. You, being a prudent business person, want to use your pile of money to earn some kind of return. In order for you to stay in business and be profitable the rate of return on those invested dollars must exceed the rate of inflation so you that you can keep up with the rising cost of doing business.

This is a very simple business model. It is a mathematical fact (in this simple model) that a rate of return lower than the rate of inflation is a money loser. I realize there are other factors in determining where to invest money such as the cost (i.e. compensating your bank depositors), risk, liquidity, legality/regulations, and many other things.

If you are on board with my assertion that at a minimum returns must be greater than inflation to be profitable then lets keep going.

An obvious business case for a bank is to use that pile of cash to provide loans. The interest rate on those loans must be at rate of inflation at minimum to break even. On the other end you want the interest rate to be as high as possible so you can make more money. Borrowers want the absolute lowest rate possible because it saves them money. These are conditions for a very simple and straight forward free market model. At some interest rate the borrowers and lenders will agree and the transaction will proceed.

Inflation feedback loop type 1: rates too low

Imagine now you are a borrower and you manage to score a loan from a very badly managed bank at a rate that is below the rate of inflation. What do you do now? A very simple example investment would be to buy a good that is rising at the pace of inflation, for example a scarce asset like oil. You take the loan and immediately go buy a bunch of barrels of oil and store them in your garage to sell in the future at a higher price when the loan must be repaid.

It is easy to understand what will happen to the cost of oil using simple supply and demand. You buying supply causes prices to increase (assuming demand and production stays the same). Idiot Savings and Loan, who gave you this loan, is now seeing higher fixed costs due to rising oil prices (and thus energy prices among other things) and its bank vault is being depleted. At some point after repeating this exercise many times the bank goes bust. You as the borrower sucked money out of that dumb banks vault and into your pocket via simple oil trading.

Once the bank goes bust the feedback loop stops. That idiot bank went out of business you can no longer find a rate that is below inflation so you can't keep running this money machine. That eases the supply crunch on oil and prices either stay the same or go back to where they were before. When rates are above the rate of inflation borrowers have to make some kind of effort to use money in a productive manner.

Now we have a basic understanding as to why interest rates that are below the rate of inflation drive inflation higher. There is profit to be made using cheap money to buy inflating assets which drives up prices of those inflating assets. I call this inflation feedback loop type 1. There is a proper name for this in some economic textbook that I am not going to read.

We just saw an example of this in action in the US and probably other places in the world. Type 1 feedback was an important contributing factor to the housing price inflation that occurred from 2020 until mid 2022. I recognize there were several other contributing factors because the real world is more complex than our simplified example. The rate of return on buying houses finally dropped below inflation so, as far as investors are concerned, buying a house at these rates is a losing proposition. Cheap money buyers are gone so prices are starting to drop. If cheap money were still available the prices would still be going up.

Part II: The Federal Government budget

We explored using very simple ideas the relationship between interest rates and inflation. Now we are going to examine a few key metrics of the US federal government budget. At the end we will examine a very simple model to explore the consequences of inflation and rates as it pertains to the federal government.

Chart 2: Total public debt


The first factor to consider is the current total debt. Some important take-aways from chart 2 are that prior to the 2008 Great Financial Crisis the total debt was like 10 trillion. It took all 242 years (1776 until 2008) to get from 0 to 10 trillion, then it took 14 years to get from 10T to 30+T. That is well more than 1 trillion added each year. Also bear in mind that this debt is borrowed from someone. As we discussed in the previous section, any sane lender is only going to give out a loan if the rate of return is higher than inflation.

Chart 3: Fed Funds Rate


Next there is the federal funds rate in chart 3. There is a fairly complex relationship between the funds rate and actual interest rates but for the sake of simplicity I will say that the funds rate is the interest rate that the US Government is charged for taking loans. At the moment the funds rate is around 4% and rising quickly. In the previous section we saw that the current rate of inflation is around to 8%. You may be asking yourself, how is the Federal government able to borrow at 4% when inflation is at 8%? We know that no sane lender would take that deal. For now it is sufficient to accept that there is a party out there willing to take that loss.

The Federal government is borrowing from some moron at a rate below inflation. However the government isn't an entrepreneurial enterprise trying to maximize profits so its not immediately just buying scarce assets so we don't have to worry about inflationary feedback loop type 1 occurring with the federal government. Ultimately being able to borrow below the rate of inflation is really just saving the government money on interest payments on its debt. That should be a good thing, right? We'll get to that. First we will look at how much it costs to service the debt.

Chart 4: Interest Payments


Chart 4 is federal expenditures on interest. It shows how much it costs for the federal government to service its debt level. The lower the federal funds rate, the lower the interest payments are on a given debt level. This represents the cost to borrow the money. It isn't the repayment amount. If this were a credit card balance then paying this amount would not reduce the balance it would just prevent it from getting bigger. As you can see in the graph that the payment is now pushing past 700 billion.

Quick math based on a balance of 30T and a rate of 4% would come out to 1.2 trillion. The actual payment is lower because a lot of the debt was financed in the past at a lower rate. Eventually all of the debt would get refinanced at the current rate but the effects of rate rises are not felt immediately on the entire debt ball.

Chart 5: tax receipts


One question to ask is how affordable is this 700B payment. It is prudent to also consider income when evaluating total debt and interest payments. Maybe the US has an ungodly amount of income. There are many sources of income for the federal govt but I am going to just look at tax receipts in chart 5. Tax receipts are currently around 3.2 trillion and are the highest ever. This is good, it means that a 700B interest payment is below our total income so there is money to spare for other things in the budget. I'm sure you recall in the first graph that the debt ball is getting bigger and in the past 14 years it is growing by over 1 Trillion per year. Despite taking in record tax income the government is spending roughly 1 trillion more per year than it takes in. I'm going to assert without evidence that the tax revenue growth since 2020 is mainly a result of all the stimulus money and as a result tax revenue is likely to go down in the future.

Chart 6: Budget Surplus or Deficit


Chart 6 shows the budget surplus/deficit in slightly more detail. The US govt has been running deficits for a while but lately the deficits are getting bigger. The main takeaway here is that the federal budget deficit is increasing. The budget is controlled by congress so the only way the deficits can be reduced is if congress does something about it. The US Government has to borrow money to cover this deficit. We talked about how fed funds rates are at 4% but inflation is at 8%. Who is financing the US Federal government debt?

Part III: The hero idiot bank: The Federal Reserve Bank

Our simple banking model says that a lender cannot stay in business if it is giving out loans at a rate below the inflation rate. The reason is because the cost of doing business rises at the rate of inflation and so by giving out loans that return less than inflation, eventually they will run out of money.

This basic fact does not apply to the Federal reserve bank because they are able to legally counterfeit money, unlike every other bank. Money printing in this manner causes inflation because increases the money supply. Money printing is inflationary but on its own it does not create a feedback loop. It must be combined with Federal government deficits in order to create a loop.

The federal government spends every dollar it borrows on all kinds of things. In a simple non-clown world, the federal government would borrow what it needs from various regular banks. The money that the government borrows and spends in non-clown world existed in a vault somewhere. Here in clown world, where the interest rate is below the rate of inflation, no sane bank will lend to the federal government because that bank wants to stay in business. That only leaves the worst run bank, the federal reserve, to finance these loans. The federal reserve bank has deposits but not enough deposits to lend out trillions every year to cover the deficit. It gets the money for these loans by (metaphorically) printing it.

The federal reserve bank (the Fed) and the federal government are separate entities. The fed does a lot of banker things and the government does government things. They have different responsibilities and there is no important overlap. The most important thing the fed does as far as we are concerned is that the Fed acts just like a simple bank that provides loans to the federal government. The fed has three important differences that make it unlike a regular bank. First, it doesn't have to protect its bottom line. Unlike a normal bank the fed doesn't have to be profitable so it can give loans no matter how stupid of an idea it is. Second, the Fed is obligated to finance the Federal government when no one else will. I don't know if it is actually legally obligated but it probably is. Third, it can print money. It doesn't need to have deposits to give out loans. This also means it can never go bust no matter how many bad loans it gives out.

If normal banks don't loan money to the government then the Fed prints the money that it loans to the federal government. The money is spent by the government on all kinds of programs including government employee wages, medicare, military hardware (that gets sent to Ukraine), vaccines, and other infuriating garbage. This spending is simple one-time money supply inflation because its financed with printed money.

The more money that gets printed the higher inflation goes and the more it costs to run the government. In addition, the total debt gets larger.

Inflation caused by the printed money increases the cost to operate the government. It will need to borrow even more money during the next budget cycle. In addition, borrowing money increased the total debt which increased the interest payments. Those additional payments need to be covered by borrowing again. The money that is borrowed to cover operations and interest is printed by the fed. This process is inflationary feedback loop type 2. Its driven by the combination of printing money and federal debt.

Is there a way to reduce inflation that doesn't depend on rates? Yes, kind of. That way is to completely crater the economy. Covid-19 showed us exactly how an economy can be cratered. This will reduce demand because no one has a job or money to spend. That will necessarily reduce prices and tame inflation. Inflation will go down for a while but recessions do not fix the deficit so it won't help the government to escape a feedback loop type 2. In fact, recessions make the loop worse.

The type 2 money printing inflation loop gets supercharged during times of economic recession. The government has the option to stimulate the economy and it usually will. Stimulus means even higher deficits and more borrowing of printed money. In addition, usually tax receipts will go down during a recession because businesses go bust and don't pay taxes and fewer people are working and paying taxes. Usually asset prices crash during a recession as well so capital gains turn to capital losses.

All of this translates to bigger deficits, more borrowing, more debt, and higher interest payments on that debt. All this borrowed money has to be printed because again, no sane bank is going to lend money to the federal government when the return is less than the rate of inflation. A lot of times the fed funds rate will get cut during a recession to help finance the stimulus. Depending on what is going on with inflation this may or may not cause type 1 inflation feedback (buying assets), but it certainly will cause type 2 because the federal debt gets bigger and is financed with money printing.

Part IV: Debt doom

We know that having the fed funds rate below the rate of inflation causes inflation through two very simple inflation feedback loops. Naturally one might reasonably ask, why not raise the federal funds rate to above inflation?

There is point where the interest payments on that borrowed money hits 100% of all income. This is the point that I am calling debt doom: when 100% of income is needed just to service the debt. At debt doom no amount of cutting the budget can solve the problem. The only option is to raise taxes but that will come with its own set of problems because people would be paying taxes and getting absolutely no services for it. Debt doom comes at some combination of interest rates, total debt, and income level.

I whipped together a very simple debt doom model. The most glaring simplifying assumption in this model is that the entire debt is financed at the same rate. I still think it is a helpful tool.

Rectangle Slope Plot Line Font


Each curve on the “Debt doom curves” graph represents of a level of income in trillions of dollars ranging from 5T on the high end to 1.2T on the low end. The y-axis represents the total amount of debt held and the x-axis is the interest rate on that debt. If you are on a particular curve it means that at that level of debt and interest rate 100% of income is required to service the debt.

The way to use this model is to draw a horizontal line at the a chosen level of debt. In this graph there is a red dashed line at about 31T. Follow the line where it intersects each income curve. As long as your income curve is above the horizontal debt line you can survive that level of debt at that interest rate. The point where your curve crosses below the horizontal debt line is the interest rate of death. That is the interest rate where you go fundamentally insolvent. For example if the debt is 31T and income is 5T (the highest curve), you are safe because the 5T curve never crosses the 31T debt line at any realistically possible interest rates. However if income is only 1.2T (the lowest curve), you go bust when rates hit 4%.

Another way to use this model is to follow the yellow 3.2T curve in the middle of the curves. That represents the current tax income for the US government. If interest rates were at 3% the total debt can reach 110T before all 3.2T of income is needed to service the debt. On the other hand at 11% is the interest rate of death: where the curve crosses the horizontal debt line.

The yellow curve with a 3.2T income is the curve that I consider us to be on right now. If rates hit 11% it is debt doom. Inflation is currently at 8% so in order to tame inflation the fed rate should be higher than 8%. As I said, that assumes the entire debt ball gets financed at 8% and that isn't true, but the direction is correct. If rates go up, interest payments go up. There is a limit to how high the payment can go before its unsustainable. Given that we are already running a deficit many would argue we are already past the point of debt doom.

Back in 2008 we were on the bottom curve with a total income around 1.2T. However total debt was around 8T. Inflation back then was around 5.5%. There was no need to raise rates beyond 6% so there was a lot further to go back then to get to debt doom.

As I said, this is a very simplified calculation. There are many other nuances to consider but the underlying principle remains the same. There is a known quantity of existing debt. There is some level of income that the federal government generates so pick the curve that you think that income level is. There is some interest rate on the current debt where all income is needed to service that debt. That is the point where nothing can be done about it. Congress can cut every program and collect the taxes and only pay the interest payments. The debt would never get smaller. Tax payers would receive absolutely no benefit from paying taxes. The tipping point may be well before the interest payment burden hits 100% so these doom curves are a worst (or maybe best) case scenario.

Once we hit debt doom, what happens? We get stuck in money printing inflation feedback loop type 2. No one is going to loan money at a rate below inflation so it gets printed by the Fed then loaned to the government. Every budget cycle inflation will be worse than the last cycle. The total debt gets bigger each time money is borrowed the pay the deficit and the cost to run the government grows with inflation. So in the next cycle more has to be borrowed to cover the bigger interest payments on the bigger debt and the higher cost of running the government. High inflation will eventually turn to hyperinflation. A much more detailed analysis on this inflation loop is covered in the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread.

You may have noticed on the chart that as interest rates move towards 0% the amount of debt that can be financed goes up (to infinity). What is the consequence of moving rates toward 0%, wouldn't that save the government a lot of money? The answer is yes, it would. However, the mechanism by which the federal funds rate is set means that other non-government entities can also access these 0% loans. Access to loans below rate of inflation will cause inflation feedback type 1 where borrowers take this free money and buy oil and other scarce goods causing inflation to rise. The bigger the spread between the loan and the rate of inflation the faster it causes inflation. Also another nuance to all this is that the fed prints the money to finance below market loans which will cause money supply inflation and supercharge the type 1 inflation feedback loop. Remember that a type 1 inflation loop only stops when the idiot lender goes broke. The fed can't go broke so this loop will continue for as long as the loan rate is below inflation.

Low rates will lead to inflation loop type 1 and also causes inflation loop type 2 if the government is running deficits. With rates below inflation no sane bank would lend to the government because it is a money losing proposition. The government must borrow to cover the deficit (in order to pay the capitol police to fend off the mobs) so it has to get the money from the fed. The fed prints the money and lends it to the government which causes inflation and increases the total debt. Both factors increases the deficit and so the government has to borrow more money next time.

Rates above inflation push the government into debt doom faster. Higher rates mean of the federal budget would be required to service the debt leaving less for everything else. The ever growing shortfall has to be borrowed at a higher interest rate. In theory if a regular bank give this loan it would not cause inflation. However, this regular bank knows that the Federal government is underwater. At debt doom the federal government is a deadbeat that has to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It would be stupid for any bank to give that loan because a borrower in that position is a huge risk. A higher return to account for that risk may incentivize the bank to give the loan. Higher rates means higher interest payments which will increase the deficit which makes it a riskier loan so rates go up. Won't be long before the Fed is the only bank dumb enough to underwrite loans to the underwater government and it will do it by printing the money and its back to inflation type 2.

Of course the unspeakable option is for the US government to default on its debt. At debt doom, 100% of the income is spent on interest payments to its creditors. The Government could tell its creditors to jump in a lake. The government would collect taxes and only pay for government services and not pay the interest payments. This could theoretically work as long as it never needs to borrow money again. There also are a lot of global implications from a US government default that I'll just say are very bad (because I can't even begin to unravel them).

The issue is that dumb idea is we are already running deficits to a degree that even if interest payments were wiped away there is still a budget deficit. Default does not solve the problem, it is already too late. if there were a default the US government would have burned every possible lender on Earth. The only bank stupid enough to lend it money to finance its deficit is the Federal Reserve Bank. This would lead right back to money printing and feedback loop type 2.

There is also the impossible options A and B. Right now today the interest payments are only 700b and tax income is 3.2 trillion and the total deficit is around 1T. it is still mathematically possible for congress to slash the budget and run a surplus. This will avert debt doom for as long as there are surpluses. Here are a few obvious issues with this option. First, under the false assumption that income stays constant in the future (it will go down), 1T must be cut from the budget somewhere. Second, if that amount were cut from the budget that would create a massive recession. Third, government services would be dropped but taxes would stay the same. People won't appreciate that. Lastly, debt doom won't happen today, it is the next administrations problem. Option B is to just raise taxes to generate more income instead of slashing the budget. I'll leave it to you to figure out why that's not likely to work.

Part V: Conclusion

The debt is too big and inflation is too high. This is different from the 2008 GFC because back then there was room to adjust rates up or down, we were not nearly as close to debt doom, and inflation wasn't as much of an issue. Government is currently being financed with money printing from the Fed. The deficit along with the fed funds rate being below the rate of inflation means that both types of inflation feedback loops are happening. The fed funds rate cannot rise above the current rate of inflation because that will push the federal government into debt doom. A deflationary recession will not save us because it will cause tax receipts to go down making the deficit worse. Whats more, the government will likely respond to a recession with stimulus spending making the debt worse. The fed lowering interest rates would ease the government interest payments for a while but would make inflation worse.

The fed cannot raise, lower, or maintain rates without causing inflationary feedback loops. The government can't default on the debt because even if the US wiped out its creditors it would build up a new debt with the fed as the sole lender and type 2 inflation feedback would continue, not to mention the international relations issues a default would cause. As said in the inflation write up, the fed has no way out.

A recession is coming and when it hits with full effect it is going to drive up deficits, drive down government income, and push the US government over the doom curve. If somehow there is no recession then debt doom is still coming eventually, unless we start seeing a lot of significant budget surpluses.

Part VI: what next?

I have referenced the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread which links to a great post on reddit written by a user named peruvian_bull. After writing this I understand that a lot better. In this write up we examined only the past 20 years or so and focused on the interaction between four basic elements: federal debt, deficit, inflation, and rates. Peruvian_bull's report explores many historical events that lead up to current events. It also provides many more details and technical evidence to support his conclusion of hyperinflation. If you read this and you find my conclusions too simplistic or lacking sufficient detail to be useful, then go read that.

My very simple and relatively conservative doom curve model says the US Federal government is on the precipice of debt doom. Additional debt will push it into debt doom. Once that happens it doesn't matter what the Fed or the government does. An inflationary feedback loop cannot be avoided.

Maybe someone at the Federal Reserve is smarter than me and has a brilliant plan. Maybe congress will pull of a miracle and do something so stupid that it works. The inflation thread provides historical examples of how nations in the past were able to move forward. In most cases the nation wipes away the debt with a new currency. That is most likely what will happen in the US. The digital dollar will be almost certainly be the new currency.

In another thread I pieced together a timeline of events that was all speculation. In general I think we have 5-7 years from today until the collapse of the dollar. That is to say, within 5-7 years we will all be forced to use the digital dollar and the old dollar will be worth like .000000001 digital dollars or something equally insane. I say this because in the Weimar Republic of WWI Era it took that empire about 5 years for the price of an egg to go from 1 mark to 1,000,000,000 marks. Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe was on a similar time scale although their economy was a mess for longer, in 2004 inflation there was 100% per year which is already really high and by 2008 it was millions of percent per year.

There are two events to watch for that signal when this multi-year collapse has begun. One or the other or both may happen. First is that the federal reserve bank will start to lower rates rather than raise them. Second, the fed prints money directly in response to Government stimulus or there is a “financial accident” at home or abroad. Once the fed either lowers rates or starts printing we are done, start the countdown to doom. Also let me cover my ass and say there could be all manner of black swan events that change everything in this analysis: something in China, a major war, an actual plague etc.

That said, I don't think debt doom will be the end of the world as we know it. I don't think it will be the end of the United States of America. The country will probably survive but the dollar probably will not. I don't know what the country will look like. This isn't about how to prepare. There is an excellent book written on how to prepare for this called “Surviving the Economic Collapse” by Fernando Aguirre. A similar crisis happened in Argentina roughly 20 years ago and that book is all about what the aftermath was like.

The billionaires know this is coming so if you have great wealth there are all kinds of ways to try to profit from this. I do not have great wealth so I don't know anything about that. Talk to a financial advisor if you have wealth to protect. If you depend on social security or a government retirement and plan to live for more than 5 years really study up on this because the coming collapse is going to be hardest for those that depend on the government.

Hopefully this write up was helpful for you to understand the predicament that the US Government is in right now. I tried to keep the concepts very simplified because that is how I understand it as a financial outsider. Every time I do a review of this I end up adding more stuff so I'm just going to post it now as is. I hope this was worth your time to read.
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 5
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
This post reserved for corrections and addendums

Edit 12/17/2022:

I found this chart at Rebel Capitalist Pro that gives a good visual representation of why this ain't like 2008. I recommend reading that link as well. It is a sales pitch for his paid investment package prorgam but the information provided is still valid and useful.
Product Slope Font Rectangle Line
See less See more
  • Helpful
Reactions: 1
They have no intention of paying it. The system will collapse by natural disaster, Yellowstone, big rock from space or a man made one such as a bio-weapon or nuke war. In the mean time "they" can buy food, meds, secure housing... for just the price of printing money - what a deal for "them" no actual work required.
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 3
I think another big part of the current situation we find ourselves in now (which nobody seems to be talking about) is, or was, the labor shortage in the retail, services and transportation industries.

The prices on the things you buy everyday are affected greatly affected by labor prices. If there's nobody to sell you the stuff, the business has to pay people overtime to keep the sales going.

In just about any business, salaries are the biggest cost. When you've got to pay your people time-and-a-half or double time, but you're not growing, you've got a big problem.

When you throw that into the mix of everything you've outlined, and the covid payments, and the proxy war payments... And then you look at the $80 trillion in debt gambles the banks have been keeping off the books... I just don't see how the world economy is going to stabilize itself any time soon, regardless of what the Fed does.

When Walmart is closing stores, you know there's a serious problem.
  • Helpful
Reactions: 1
Thank you to the OP for starting this thread.

If you follow along with people like Jim Rickards, Peter Schiff, Rick Rule...et al, you will get some actionable advice and information. Real inflation is closer to 16% plus. The next two Fed hikes of .50 and .50 will really tank a lot of assets. It will make paying the federal debt, interest alone, grow to over 1 trillon dollars a year.

The Fed will reverse, it will have no choice, and it will have to resort to printing money, aka renewed quantitative easing, pension bail-outs aka quantitative easing and so on more quantitative easing. This will expand the money supply and cause more inflation by definition. Insane yes, but there will be no other politically viable options. But on the good side for the Federal government, a CBDC can then be forced on the citizens.

The simplest solution would be to simply eliminate the Fed, reduce Feceral spending and cut the money supply. But none of that will happen. But it would 100% work at some point, with much suffering along the way. But it would work.

The labor market is smoke and mirrors. How can the labor participation rate go down and have 2 million plus jobs created ? Because they are, as a general matter, all part-time , low-paying jobs. All these "new jobs" aka returning post lock-down jobs, were absorbed by existing workers. Not new workers as a general matter. I am astonished that anyone could believe we have a strong labor market. Our wonderful consumer - service economy.

What could possibly go wrong ? Clearly a lot.

Consumer debt, credit cards etc., are at stratospheric levels and consumer savings are at alarming lows.
We all could write our own books about the Cental Banks and the "great reset" that seems to be imminent.
What seems to be most problematic for the U.S. is that the pressure that our idiotic international policies with Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, et al, are leading to the demise of the petrol dollar and the dollar's reserve currency status.

New supply chains have formed and will continue to do so. The U.S., Western/Central Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia et al forming one supply trade group, and the BRICS et al formig another supply trade group. China and the U.S. are in the process of getting divorced. This is reality. And not categorically a bad thing as "trade routes" have been changing for thousands of years.

In another thread, I mentioned that Russia was moving to trade two barrels of oil for a gram of gold and Ghana was moving to pay gold for oil. This is poison for consumer economies like the U.S. It is the beginning of the end for the dollar as "The" reserve currency, and the beginning of the "great reset." Payments for goods with something else of value, i.e. other goods or commodities, will be catastrophic for fiat currencies and the Cental Banks and countries relying on paying for goods with worthless fiat currency.
Something of value > fiat currency of zero inhetent value. This common sense was always bound to win the day. Trading and selling goods and commodities for other things of value, i.e. goods and commodities is good business as opposed to trading goods and commodities for worthless fiat currency with zero inhetent value. I feel bad for the countries that accepted post gold-backed dollars, but it was great for us. Suckers or victims of imperialism or both.

If you are older like some of us, you renember the death of a gold-backed dollar into a so-called petrol dollar.
You remember 20% interest rates and "Whip Inflation Now"

You remember circa 1970 when a man could earn $10,000 and have his wife stay at home raising the children while owning a home and having a good life. This was all destroyed by inflation, fiat money and movivg into a sevice/consumer based economy. Our policies, both foreign and domestic did this. An outrage that has resulted in a rich and poor divide that is accelerating the evisceration of the middle class here in the United States.

Hopefully in the fullness of time the United States will return to producing things and exporting them. Hopefully we can return to a gold or something of value backed dollar standard. We have the resources and the ingenuity. But in the short term, relatively speaking, we are ****ed.

2023 will be a very interesting, the bad kind of interesting, year in my opinion.
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 5
I am not an expert on this topic. I wish to thank the OP for starting this thread.

this past summer my wife and I attended a conference with many expert guest speakers. Their consensus was that our current inflation is due to the Federal Reserve releasing too much fresh money. When you triple the supply of money floating around in the economy each individual dollar is worth less.

Inflation has no direct connection to government spending or national debt. That is not to say that I approve of government spending or our ever-growing debt. I believe that Congress is spending far too much, and they honestly do not care one iota about our debt.

:)
  • Like
Reactions: 1
"Lastly, debt doom won't happen today, it is the next administrations problem."

^^^ Therein lies the source of all of our problems. McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi, Biden will all be dead when this blows up. The average age of senators is 64. None of them really give a damn.

Going forward, politicians that cut taxes and/or increase spending are elected while those who raise taxes and/or cut spending are fired. Problem is never solved. I understand your Debt Doom curves, but the crossover level (into debt doom) is before the interest and income reach parity. There's always expenditures that will never be cut, including some of the largest like Social Security. Any politician that even talks about cutting SS will be gone next election. These are the reasons this problem will never be addressed, and is why it will all blow up in our faces. If you asked the average voter in this country to list the top ten problems we have today, maybe 5% would have the national debt anywhere on their list. It's not a problem today, so it's not a problem to be solved. When it does become a problem it will be too late. There's nothing that anyone on earth will be able to do about it. There will be great suffering, and all our politicians will do is blame someone else.

Great post. Thank you! I really like your feedback loop type 1 and 2 analysis. You've captured the fundamental principle behind each type of inflationary response. I also agree with your prediction of 5 to 7 years for the dollar. I've read many financial and economic experts that all say the dollar will collapse. Few will make predictions as to exactly when.

I started my own journey of getting educated about finance, the economy, how markets work, the Federal Reserve and the history of money. What got the ball rolling for me was a YouTube series by Mike Maloney called The Hidden Secrets of Money. He does a great job of breaking down this complex system we have that involves the Fed, banks, the treasury and how money moves through the economy. He also tells the poignant tale of how all fiat currencies throughout all of history, going back to ancient Rome, have all failed. He believes we get back to gold and silver being our money or at least backing our money. Many here will groan hearing that and say that you can't expand the money supply enough to grow the economy with gold backed money. But it's the reckless growth of the money supply that is causing all the problems we now face. I also subscribe to Wealthion, by Adam Taggart. He has a lot of great guests. Rich Dad, Poor Dad with Robert Kiyosaki is also very good. The Peruvian Bull series on Reddit was excellent, highly recommend that to anyone.

Get educated, read books, watch videos, pay careful attention to the news (Wall Street Journal is the only decent newspaper IMO). This is the one forum on this site that I regularly read and post. It's great to hear others' opinions and links to stories. I just try to learn as much as possible to best prepare myself and family for the coming storm. As Mike Maloney says in his video series, the best investment you can make is in your own education.
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 2
Hopefully in the fullness of time the United States will return to producing things and exporting them. Hopefully we can return to a gold or something of value backed dollar standard. We have the resources and the ingenuity. But in the short term, relatively speaking, we are ****ed.

2023 will be a very interesting, the bad kind of interesting, year in my opinion.
Agree 100%. We have to have something of value to back our money. A CBDC suffers from all the problems of our current fiat money system, except that it adds all sorts of problems for privacy and government intervention into our lives (which is why it will be pushed).

Glad you mentioned Jim Rickards. Have read a couple of his books and always watch when he's a guest on some of the YT channels I follow. Has a lot of experience in Wall Street investment banks and also is a government insider (used to work for the CIA). Schiff, Maloney, Rickards, Kiyosaki, Taggart and almost everyone I read/listen to talk about gold and silver as a backup plan. Many believe we get back to a gold standard of some kind. Our money has to be worth something again.
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 3
I present an effort post on debt doom. This analysis is intended is to help non-finance people (such as myself) to understand the most basic mechanisms of inflation, the status of US Federal finances, and the role that the Federal Reserve Bank plays. We all know about usdebtclock.org and can see that federal debt is at least 30 trillion and rising. We know intuitively that this is a bad thing but might not know exactly what the consequences of that debt are. This is a data driven story of how the US debt is nearly certain to spiral out of control due to inflationary feedback loops.

I am not the first person to come to this conclusion or present these ideas. These are all my own original thoughts that were influenced by many sources that brought my attention to this coming crisis. The initial drafts of this were more focused on the coming recession but it became clear while writing that the next recession is just the opening act to something much much more dire.

I welcome any feedback on what I have written. I will try to clarify any concepts or correct any of my misinterpretations or errors. My goal was to make these ideas as accessible and simple as possible. I intentionally made many gross simplifications and sweeping generalizations that I think are appropriate for this level of discussion. I tried to keep this report focused on inflation and federal debt so I ignored a lot of complexity. This is because I don't live in the financial world and I don't want to spend weeks researching things. The sooner people are able to see this coming the sooner they can take steps to prepare. If you want to expand further on any of the concepts I talk about and account for the complexity that I ignored, that would be a welcome discussion that I am interested to hear.

This post does not offer much preparation advice, that is separate issue for another day.

This post is organized into 6 parts that build on each other. Part one talks about inflation and banks. Part two examines the federal budget. Part three is about the federal reserve bank. Part four is the debt doom model. Part five is the conclusion and part six talks about what to expect going forward.

Part I: Inflation and a normal bank
Inflation is a measure of the buying power of the dollar over time. I think most people have an intuitive sense of inflation. That level of understanding is all that is needed for this report. The inflation data in chart 1 comes from usinflationcalculator.com that they get from the BLS. There are other sources of inflation data out there and inflation is different across the various economic sectors. Right now inflation is 8%. This data gives a starting point for discussing some possible future outcomes.

View attachment 487057

Inflation plays an important role in deciding how to manage extra money. Imagine you are a very simple finance 101 traditional bank owner. You have deposits of dollars sitting in the vault. In an inflationary environment those dollars sitting in that pile will be worth less in the future. Your bank has fixed costs like paying employees, heating bills, electricity bills, rent, pens on little chains, etc. The cost of all of these things are getting more expensive due to inflation. You, being a prudent business person, want to use your pile of money to earn some kind of return. In order for you to stay in business and be profitable the rate of return on those invested dollars must exceed the rate of inflation so you that you can keep up with the rising cost of doing business.

This is a very simple business model. It is a mathematical fact (in this simple model) that a rate of return lower than the rate of inflation is a money loser. I realize there are other factors in determining where to invest money such as the cost (i.e. compensating your bank depositors), risk, liquidity, legality/regulations, and many other things.

If you are on board with my assertion that at a minimum returns must be greater than inflation to be profitable then lets keep going.

An obvious business case for a bank is to use that pile of cash to provide loans. The interest rate on those loans must be at rate of inflation at minimum to break even. On the other end you want the interest rate to be as high as possible so you can make more money. Borrowers want the absolute lowest rate possible because it saves them money. These are conditions for a very simple and straight forward free market model. At some interest rate the borrowers and lenders will agree and the transaction will proceed.

Inflation feedback loop type 1: rates too low

Imagine now you are a borrower and you manage to score a loan from a very badly managed bank at a rate that is below the rate of inflation. What do you do now? A very simple example investment would be to buy a good that is rising at the pace of inflation, for example a scarce asset like oil. You take the loan and immediately go buy a bunch of barrels of oil and store them in your garage to sell in the future at a higher price when the loan must be repaid.

It is easy to understand what will happen to the cost of oil using simple supply and demand. You buying supply causes prices to increase (assuming demand and production stays the same). Idiot Savings and Loan, who gave you this loan, is now seeing higher fixed costs due to rising oil prices (and thus energy prices among other things) and its bank vault is being depleted. At some point after repeating this exercise many times the bank goes bust. You as the borrower sucked money out of that dumb banks vault and into your pocket via simple oil trading.

Once the bank goes bust the feedback loop stops. That idiot bank went out of business you can no longer find a rate that is below inflation so you can't keep running this money machine. That eases the supply crunch on oil and prices either stay the same or go back to where they were before. When rates are above the rate of inflation borrowers have to make some kind of effort to use money in a productive manner.

Now we have a basic understanding as to why interest rates that are below the rate of inflation drive inflation higher. There is profit to be made using cheap money to buy inflating assets which drives up prices of those inflating assets. I call this inflation feedback loop type 1. There is a proper name for this in some economic textbook that I am not going to read.

We just saw an example of this in action in the US and probably other places in the world. Type 1 feedback was an important contributing factor to the housing price inflation that occurred from 2020 until mid 2022. I recognize there were several other contributing factors because the real world is more complex than our simplified example. The rate of return on buying houses finally dropped below inflation so, as far as investors are concerned, buying a house at these rates is a losing proposition. Cheap money buyers are gone so prices are starting to drop. If cheap money were still available the prices would still be going up.

Part II: The Federal Government budget

We explored using very simple ideas the relationship between interest rates and inflation. Now we are going to examine a few key metrics of the US federal government budget. At the end we will examine a very simple model to explore the consequences of inflation and rates as it pertains to the federal government.

View attachment 487059

The first factor to consider is the current total debt. Some important take-aways from chart 2 are that prior to the 2008 Great Financial Crisis the total debt was like 10 trillion. It took all 242 years (1776 until 2008) to get from 0 to 10 trillion, then it took 14 years to get from 10T to 30+T. That is well more than 1 trillion added each year. Also bear in mind that this debt is borrowed from someone. As we discussed in the previous section, any sane lender is only going to give out a loan if the rate of return is higher than inflation.

View attachment 487060

Next there is the federal funds rate in chart 3. There is a fairly complex relationship between the funds rate and actual interest rates but for the sake of simplicity I will say that the funds rate is the interest rate that the US Government is charged for taking loans. At the moment the funds rate is around 4% and rising quickly. In the previous section we saw that the current rate of inflation is around to 8%. You may be asking yourself, how is the Federal government able to borrow at 4% when inflation is at 8%? We know that no sane lender would take that deal. For now it is sufficient to accept that there is a party out there willing to take that loss.

The Federal government is borrowing from some moron at a rate below inflation. However the government isn't an entrepreneurial enterprise trying to maximize profits so its not immediately just buying scarce assets so we don't have to worry about inflationary feedback loop type 1 occurring with the federal government. Ultimately being able to borrow below the rate of inflation is really just saving the government money on interest payments on its debt. That should be a good thing, right? We'll get to that. First we will look at how much it costs to service the debt.

View attachment 487061

Chart 4 is federal expenditures on interest. It shows how much it costs for the federal government to service its debt level. The lower the federal funds rate, the lower the interest payments are on a given debt level. This represents the cost to borrow the money. It isn't the repayment amount. If this were a credit card balance then paying this amount would not reduce the balance it would just prevent it from getting bigger. As you can see in the graph that the payment is now pushing past 700 billion.

Quick math based on a balance of 30T and a rate of 4% would come out to 1.2 trillion. The actual payment is lower because a lot of the debt was financed in the past at a lower rate. Eventually all of the debt would get refinanced at the current rate but the effects of rate rises are not felt immediately on the entire debt ball.

View attachment 487062

One question to ask is how affordable is this 700B payment. It is prudent to also consider income when evaluating total debt and interest payments. Maybe the US has an ungodly amount of income. There are many sources of income for the federal govt but I am going to just look at tax receipts in chart 5. Tax receipts are currently around 3.2 trillion and are the highest ever. This is good, it means that a 700B interest payment is below our total income so there is money to spare for other things in the budget. I'm sure you recall in the first graph that the debt ball is getting bigger and in the past 14 years it is growing by over 1 Trillion per year. Despite taking in record tax income the government is spending roughly 1 trillion more per year than it takes in. I'm going to assert without evidence that the tax revenue growth since 2020 is mainly a result of all the stimulus money and as a result tax revenue is likely to go down in the future.

View attachment 487063

Chart 6 shows the budget surplus/deficit in slightly more detail. The US govt has been running deficits for a while but lately the deficits are getting bigger. The main takeaway here is that the federal budget deficit is increasing. The budget is controlled by congress so the only way the deficits can be reduced is if congress does something about it. The US Government has to borrow money to cover this deficit. We talked about how fed funds rates are at 4% but inflation is at 8%. Who is financing the US Federal government debt?

Part III: The hero idiot bank: The Federal Reserve Bank

Our simple banking model says that a lender cannot stay in business if it is giving out loans at a rate below the inflation rate. The reason is because the cost of doing business rises at the rate of inflation and so by giving out loans that return less than inflation, eventually they will run out of money.

This basic fact does not apply to the Federal reserve bank because they are able to legally counterfeit money, unlike every other bank. Money printing in this manner causes inflation because increases the money supply. Money printing is inflationary but on its own it does not create a feedback loop. It must be combined with Federal government deficits in order to create a loop.

The federal government spends every dollar it borrows on all kinds of things. In a simple non-clown world, the federal government would borrow what it needs from various regular banks. The money that the government borrows and spends in non-clown world existed in a vault somewhere. Here in clown world, where the interest rate is below the rate of inflation, no sane bank will lend to the federal government because that bank wants to stay in business. That only leaves the worst run bank, the federal reserve, to finance these loans. The federal reserve bank has deposits but not enough deposits to lend out trillions every year to cover the deficit. It gets the money for these loans by (metaphorically) printing it.

The federal reserve bank (the Fed) and the federal government are separate entities. The fed does a lot of banker things and the government does government things. They have different responsibilities and there is no important overlap. The most important thing the fed does as far as we are concerned is that the Fed acts just like a simple bank that provides loans to the federal government. The fed has three important differences that make it unlike a regular bank. First, it doesn't have to protect its bottom line. Unlike a normal bank the fed doesn't have to be profitable so it can give loans no matter how stupid of an idea it is. Second, the Fed is obligated to finance the Federal government when no one else will. I don't know if it is actually legally obligated but it probably is. Third, it can print money. It doesn't need to have deposits to give out loans. This also means it can never go bust no matter how many bad loans it gives out.

If normal banks don't loan money to the government then the Fed prints the money that it loans to the federal government. The money is spent by the government on all kinds of programs including government employee wages, medicare, military hardware (that gets sent to Ukraine), vaccines, and other infuriating garbage. This spending is simple one-time money supply inflation because its financed with printed money.

The more money that gets printed the higher inflation goes and the more it costs to run the government. In addition, the total debt gets larger.

Inflation caused by the printed money increases the cost to operate the government. It will need to borrow even more money during the next budget cycle. In addition, borrowing money increased the total debt which increased the interest payments. Those additional payments need to be covered by borrowing again. The money that is borrowed to cover operations and interest is printed by the fed. This process is inflationary feedback loop type 2. Its driven by the combination of printing money and federal debt.

Is there a way to reduce inflation that doesn't depend on rates? Yes, kind of. That way is to completely crater the economy. Covid-19 showed us exactly how an economy can be cratered. This will reduce demand because no one has a job or money to spend. That will necessarily reduce prices and tame inflation. Inflation will go down for a while but recessions do not fix the deficit so it won't help the government to escape a feedback loop type 2. In fact, recessions make the loop worse.

The type 2 money printing inflation loop gets supercharged during times of economic recession. The government has the option to stimulate the economy and it usually will. Stimulus means even higher deficits and more borrowing of printed money. In addition, usually tax receipts will go down during a recession because businesses go bust and don't pay taxes and fewer people are working and paying taxes. Usually asset prices crash during a recession as well so capital gains turn to capital losses.

All of this translates to bigger deficits, more borrowing, more debt, and higher interest payments on that debt. All this borrowed money has to be printed because again, no sane bank is going to lend money to the federal government when the return is less than the rate of inflation. A lot of times the fed funds rate will get cut during a recession to help finance the stimulus. Depending on what is going on with inflation this may or may not cause type 1 inflation feedback (buying assets), but it certainly will cause type 2 because the federal debt gets bigger and is financed with money printing.

Part IV: Debt doom

We know that having the fed funds rate below the rate of inflation causes inflation through two very simple inflation feedback loops. Naturally one might reasonably ask, why not raise the federal funds rate to above inflation?

There is point where the interest payments on that borrowed money hits 100% of all income. This is the point that I am calling debt doom: when 100% of income is needed just to service the debt. At debt doom no amount of cutting the budget can solve the problem. The only option is to raise taxes but that will come with its own set of problems because people would be paying taxes and getting absolutely no services for it. Debt doom comes at some combination of interest rates, total debt, and income level.

I whipped together a very simple debt doom model. The most glaring simplifying assumption in this model is that the entire debt is financed at the same rate. I still think it is a helpful tool.

View attachment 487064

Each curve on the “Debt doom curves” graph represents of a level of income in trillions of dollars ranging from 5T on the high end to 1.2T on the low end. The y-axis represents the total amount of debt held and the x-axis is the interest rate on that debt. If you are on a particular curve it means that at that level of debt and interest rate 100% of income is required to service the debt.

The way to use this model is to draw a horizontal line at the a chosen level of debt. In this graph there is a red dashed line at about 31T. Follow the line where it intersects each income curve. As long as your income curve is above the horizontal debt line you can survive that level of debt at that interest rate. The point where your curve crosses below the horizontal debt line is the interest rate of death. That is the interest rate where you go fundamentally insolvent. For example if the debt is 31T and income is 5T (the highest curve), you are safe because the 5T curve never crosses the 31T debt line at any realistically possible interest rates. However if income is only 1.2T (the lowest curve), you go bust when rates hit 4%.

Another way to use this model is to follow the yellow 3.2T curve in the middle of the curves. That represents the current tax income for the US government. If interest rates were at 3% the total debt can reach 110T before all 3.2T of income is needed to service the debt. On the other hand at 11% is the interest rate of death: where the curve crosses the horizontal debt line.

The yellow curve with a 3.2T income is the curve that I consider us to be on right now. If rates hit 11% it is debt doom. Inflation is currently at 8% so in order to tame inflation the fed rate should be higher than 8%. As I said, that assumes the entire debt ball gets financed at 8% and that isn't true, but the direction is correct. If rates go up, interest payments go up. There is a limit to how high the payment can go before its unsustainable. Given that we are already running a deficit many would argue we are already past the point of debt doom.

Back in 2008 we were on the bottom curve with a total income around 1.2T. However total debt was around 8T. Inflation back then was around 5.5%. There was no need to raise rates beyond 6% so there was a lot further to go back then to get to debt doom.

As I said, this is a very simplified calculation. There are many other nuances to consider but the underlying principle remains the same. There is a known quantity of existing debt. There is some level of income that the federal government generates so pick the curve that you think that income level is. There is some interest rate on the current debt where all income is needed to service that debt. That is the point where nothing can be done about it. Congress can cut every program and collect the taxes and only pay the interest payments. The debt would never get smaller. Tax payers would receive absolutely no benefit from paying taxes. The tipping point may be well before the interest payment burden hits 100% so these doom curves are a worst (or maybe best) case scenario.

Once we hit debt doom, what happens? We get stuck in money printing inflation feedback loop type 2. No one is going to loan money at a rate below inflation so it gets printed by the Fed then loaned to the government. Every budget cycle inflation will be worse than the last cycle. The total debt gets bigger each time money is borrowed the pay the deficit and the cost to run the government grows with inflation. So in the next cycle more has to be borrowed to cover the bigger interest payments on the bigger debt and the higher cost of running the government. High inflation will eventually turn to hyperinflation. A much more detailed analysis on this inflation loop is covered in the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread.

You may have noticed on the chart that as interest rates move towards 0% the amount of debt that can be financed goes up (to infinity). What is the consequence of moving rates toward 0%, wouldn't that save the government a lot of money? The answer is yes, it would. However, the mechanism by which the federal funds rate is set means that other non-government entities can also access these 0% loans. Access to loans below rate of inflation will cause inflation feedback type 1 where borrowers take this free money and buy oil and other scarce goods causing inflation to rise. The bigger the spread between the loan and the rate of inflation the faster it causes inflation. Also another nuance to all this is that the fed prints the money to finance below market loans which will cause money supply inflation and supercharge the type 1 inflation feedback loop. Remember that a type 1 inflation loop only stops when the idiot lender goes broke. The fed can't go broke so this loop will continue for as long as the loan rate is below inflation.

Low rates will lead to inflation loop type 1 and also causes inflation loop type 2 if the government is running deficits. With rates below inflation no sane bank would lend to the government because it is a money losing proposition. The government must borrow to cover the deficit (in order to pay the capitol police to fend off the mobs) so it has to get the money from the fed. The fed prints the money and lends it to the government which causes inflation and increases the total debt. Both factors increases the deficit and so the government has to borrow more money next time.

Rates above inflation push the government into debt doom faster. Higher rates mean of the federal budget would be required to service the debt leaving less for everything else. The ever growing shortfall has to be borrowed at a higher interest rate. In theory if a regular bank give this loan it would not cause inflation. However, this regular bank knows that the Federal government is underwater. At debt doom the federal government is a deadbeat that has to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It would be stupid for any bank to give that loan because a borrower in that position is a huge risk. A higher return to account for that risk may incentivize the bank to give the loan. Higher rates means higher interest payments which will increase the deficit which makes it a riskier loan so rates go up. Won't be long before the Fed is the only bank dumb enough to underwrite loans to the underwater government and it will do it by printing the money and its back to inflation type 2.

Of course the unspeakable option is for the US government to default on its debt. At debt doom, 100% of the income is spent on interest payments to its creditors. The Government could tell its creditors to jump in a lake. The government would collect taxes and only pay for government services and not pay the interest payments. This could theoretically work as long as it never needs to borrow money again. There also are a lot of global implications from a US government default that I'll just say are very bad (because I can't even begin to unravel them).

The issue is that dumb idea is we are already running deficits to a degree that even if interest payments were wiped away there is still a budget deficit. Default does not solve the problem, it is already too late. if there were a default the US government would have burned every possible lender on Earth. The only bank stupid enough to lend it money to finance its deficit is the Federal Reserve Bank. This would lead right back to money printing and feedback loop type 2.

There is also the impossible options A and B. Right now today the interest payments are only 700b and tax income is 3.2 trillion and the total deficit is around 1T. it is still mathematically possible for congress to slash the budget and run a surplus. This will avert debt doom for as long as there are surpluses. Here are a few obvious issues with this option. First, under the false assumption that income stays constant in the future (it will go down), 1T must be cut from the budget somewhere. Second, if that amount were cut from the budget that would create a massive recession. Third, government services would be dropped but taxes would stay the same. People won't appreciate that. Lastly, debt doom won't happen today, it is the next administrations problem. Option B is to just raise taxes to generate more income instead of slashing the budget. I'll leave it to you to figure out why that's not likely to work.

Part V: Conclusion

The debt is too big and inflation is too high. This is different from the 2008 GFC because back then there was room to adjust rates up or down, we were not nearly as close to debt doom, and inflation wasn't as much of an issue. Government is currently being financed with money printing from the Fed. The deficit along with the fed funds rate being below the rate of inflation means that both types of inflation feedback loops are happening. The fed funds rate cannot rise above the current rate of inflation because that will push the federal government into debt doom. A deflationary recession will not save us because it will cause tax receipts to go down making the deficit worse. Whats more, the government will likely respond to a recession with stimulus spending making the debt worse. The fed lowering interest rates would ease the government interest payments for a while but would make inflation worse.

The fed cannot raise, lower, or maintain rates without causing inflationary feedback loops. The government can't default on the debt because even if the US wiped out its creditors it would build up a new debt with the fed as the sole lender and type 2 inflation feedback would continue, not to mention the international relations issues a default would cause. As said in the inflation write up, the fed has no way out.

A recession is coming and when it hits with full effect it is going to drive up deficits, drive down government income, and push the US government over the doom curve. If somehow there is no recession then debt doom is still coming eventually, unless we start seeing a lot of significant budget surpluses.

Part VI: what next?

I have referenced the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread which links to a great post on reddit written by a user named peruvian_bull. After writing this I understand that a lot better. In this write up we examined only the past 20 years or so and focused on the interaction between four basic elements: federal debt, deficit, inflation, and rates. Peruvian_bull's report explores many historical events that lead up to current events. It also provides many more details and technical evidence to support his conclusion of hyperinflation. If you read this and you find my conclusions too simplistic or lacking sufficient detail to be useful, then go read that.

My very simple and relatively conservative doom curve model says the US Federal government is on the precipice of debt doom. Additional debt will push it into debt doom. Once that happens it doesn't matter what the Fed or the government does. An inflationary feedback loop cannot be avoided.

Maybe someone at the Federal Reserve is smarter than me and has a brilliant plan. Maybe congress will pull of a miracle and do something so stupid that it works. The inflation thread provides historical examples of how nations in the past were able to move forward. In most cases the nation wipes away the debt with a new currency. That is most likely what will happen in the US. The digital dollar will be almost certainly be the new currency.

In another thread I pieced together a timeline of events that was all speculation. In general I think we have 5-7 years from today until the collapse of the dollar. That is to say, within 5-7 years we will all be forced to use the digital dollar and the old dollar will be worth like .000000001 digital dollars or something equally insane. I say this because in the Weimar Republic of WWI Era it took that empire about 5 years for the price of an egg to go from 1 mark to 1,000,000,000 marks. Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe was on a similar time scale although their economy was a mess for longer, in 2004 inflation there was 100% per year which is already really high and by 2008 it was millions of percent per year.

There are two events to watch for that signal when this multi-year collapse has begun. One or the other or both may happen. First is that the federal reserve bank will start to lower rates rather than raise them. Second, the fed prints money directly in response to Government stimulus or there is a “financial accident” at home or abroad. Once the fed either lowers rates or starts printing we are done, start the countdown to doom. Also let me cover my ass and say there could be all manner of black swan events that change everything in this analysis: something in China, a major war, an actual plague etc.

That said, I don't think debt doom will be the end of the world as we know it. I don't think it will be the end of the United States of America. The country will probably survive but the dollar probably will not. I don't know what the country will look like. This isn't about how to prepare. There is an excellent book written on how to prepare for this called “Surviving the Economic Collapse” by Fernando Aguirre. A similar crisis happened in Argentina roughly 20 years ago and that book is all about what the aftermath was like.

The billionaires know this is coming so if you have great wealth there are all kinds of ways to try to profit from this. I do not have great wealth so I don't know anything about that. Talk to a financial advisor if you have wealth to protect. If you depend on social security or a government retirement and plan to live for more than 5 years really study up on this because the coming collapse is going to be hardest for those that depend on the government.

Hopefully this write up was helpful for you to understand the predicament that the US Government is in right now. I tried to keep the concepts very simplified because that is how I understand it as a financial outsider. Every time I do a review of this I end up adding more stuff so I'm just going to post it now as is. I hope this was worth your time to read.
F,
Too much material to properly respond to even in gthe best of mediums - and the web is, IMO, the worst.

"Finance people" also need help.

The USG debt is already being addressed. The middle class is currently already making payments via both lower standards of products (included health care matters) and services.

The US debt incorporates unfunded liabilities and contingent liabilities. Watch the evaporation when the programs generating the aforesaid fade away.

Also part of debt servie is the "means test". Eg, labor force employees contribute to FICA/Social Security retirement program. If worker has other means for retirement, SS not available. If 4 checks go to a household of 2, anticipate having the proceeds of only one of them. It will be the smallest.

I believe inflation is well above 8%.

Fed is not counterfeiting any money. Fed efforts and programs are bipartisan supported. This is a political matter and not one of jurisprudence.

No, the Fed is no longer a seperate entity of the public sector. The Fed is now the de facto Dept of the Treasury - fully insulated from partisan political blocs and political parties.

Again, legal obligations not involved; political matters are - and they are bipartisan approved.
See less See more
Thank you to the OP for starting this thread.

If you follow along with people like Jim Rickards, Peter Schiff, Rick Rule...et al, you will get some actionable advice and information. Real inflation is closer to 16% plus. The next two Fed hikes of .50 and .50 will really tank a lot of assets. It will make paying the federal debt, interest alone, grow to over 1 trillon dollars a year.

The Fed will reverse, it will have no choice, and it will have to resort to printing money, aka renewed quantitative easing, pension bail-outs aka quantitative easing and so on more quantitative easing. This will expand the money supply and cause more inflation by definition. Insane yes, but there will be no other politically viable options. But on the good side for the Federal government, a CBDC can then be forced on the citizens.

The simplest solution would be to simply eliminate the Fed, reduce Feceral spending and cut the money supply. But none of that will happen. But it would 100% work at some point, with much suffering along the way. But it would work.

The labor market is smoke and mirrors. How can the labor participation rate go down and have 2 million plus jobs created ? Because they are, as a general matter, all part-time , low-paying jobs. All these "new jobs" aka returning post lock-down jobs, were absorbed by existing workers. Not new workers as a general matter. I am astonished that anyone could believe we have a strong labor market. Our wonderful consumer - service economy.

What could possibly go wrong ? Clearly a lot.

Consumer debt, credit cards etc., are at stratospheric levels and consumer savings are at alarming lows.
We all could write our own books about the Cental Banks and the "great reset" that seems to be imminent.
What seems to be most problematic for the U.S. is that the pressure that our idiotic international policies with Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, et al, are leading to the demise of the petrol dollar and the dollar's reserve currency status.

New supply chains have formed and will continue to do so. The U.S., Western/Central Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia et al forming one supply trade group, and the BRICS et al formig another supply trade group. China and the U.S. are in the process of getting divorced. This is reality. And not categorically a bad thing as "trade routes" have been changing for thousands of years.

In another thread, I mentioned that Russia was moving to trade two barrels of oil for a gram of gold and Ghana was moving to pay gold for oil. This is poison for consumer economies like the U.S. It is the beginning of the end for the dollar as "The" reserve currency, and the beginning of the "great reset." Payments for goods with something else of value, i.e. other goods or commodities, will be catastrophic for fiat currencies and the Cental Banks and countries relying on paying for goods with worthless fiat currency.
Something of value > fiat currency of zero inhetent value. This common sense was always bound to win the day. Trading and selling goods and commodities for other things of value, i.e. goods and commodities is good business as opposed to trading goods and commodities for worthless fiat currency with zero inhetent value. I feel bad for the countries that accepted post gold-backed dollars, but it was great for us. Suckers or victims of imperialism or both.

If you are older like some of us, you renember the death of a gold-backed dollar into a so-called petrol dollar.
You remember 20% interest rates and "Whip Inflation Now"

You remember circa 1970 when a man could earn $10,000 and have his wife stay at home raising the children while owning a home and having a good life. This was all destroyed by inflation, fiat money and movivg into a sevice/consumer based economy. Our policies, both foreign and domestic did this. An outrage that has resulted in a rich and poor divide that is accelerating the evisceration of the middle class here in the United States.

Hopefully in the fullness of time the United States will return to producing things and exporting them. Hopefully we can return to a gold or something of value backed dollar standard. We have the resources and the ingenuity. But in the short term, relatively speaking, we are ****ed.

2023 will be a very interesting, the bad kind of interesting, year in my opinion.
This is a great summary of a bunch of other economic factors to consider. They're pretty much all bad. I think that if the US debt and inflation were in better places these other factors would be less important. Everything together is just a giant stew of unsurmountable problem. I'm glad to see that many people can see that a major recession is coming so that fewer people will be blindsided. Unfortunately most people either don't understand or won't believe that this recession will kick off a hyperinflationary spiral for the US that takes us into a brave new world, whatever that will look like.
  • Helpful
  • Like
Reactions: 2
I am not an expert on this topic. I wish to thank the OP for starting this thread.

this past summer my wife and I attended a conference with many expert guest speakers. Their consensus was that our current inflation is due to the Federal Reserve releasing too much fresh money. When you triple the supply of money floating around in the economy each individual dollar is worth less.

Inflation has no direct connection to government spending or national debt. That is not to say that I approve of government spending or our ever-growing debt. I believe that Congress is spending far too much, and they honestly do not care one iota about our debt.

:)
I agree with the consensus that money printing causes inflation. I disagree that inflation is not directly connected to govt spending and debt. In normal times I would agree that is true. Normal times being that inflation is lower than fed funds rate and government spending is not causing deficits. We are not in normal times, we are in clown world. As I wrote in my post when we are in clown world federal debt plus budget deficits create inflationary feedback loops and send inflation into hyperdrive.

I also agree that congress is being wreckless and don't care. We are on our own to deal with the coming mess.
  • Helpful
Reactions: 1
I present an effort post on debt doom. This analysis is intended is to help non-finance people (such as myself) to understand the most basic mechanisms of inflation, the status of US Federal finances, and the role that the Federal Reserve Bank plays. We all know about usdebtclock.org and can see that federal debt is at least 30 trillion and rising. We know intuitively that this is a bad thing but might not know exactly what the consequences of that debt are. This is a data driven story of how the US debt is nearly certain to spiral out of control due to inflationary feedback loops.

I am not the first person to come to this conclusion or present these ideas. These are all my own original thoughts that were influenced by many sources that brought my attention to this coming crisis. The initial drafts of this were more focused on the coming recession but it became clear while writing that the next recession is just the opening act to something much much more dire.

I welcome any feedback on what I have written. I will try to clarify any concepts or correct any of my misinterpretations or errors. My goal was to make these ideas as accessible and simple as possible. I intentionally made many gross simplifications and sweeping generalizations that I think are appropriate for this level of discussion. I tried to keep this report focused on inflation and federal debt so I ignored a lot of complexity. This is because I don't live in the financial world and I don't want to spend weeks researching things. The sooner people are able to see this coming the sooner they can take steps to prepare. If you want to expand further on any of the concepts I talk about and account for the complexity that I ignored, that would be a welcome discussion that I am interested to hear.

This post does not offer much preparation advice, that is separate issue for another day.

This post is organized into 6 parts that build on each other. Part one talks about inflation and banks. Part two examines the federal budget. Part three is about the federal reserve bank. Part four is the debt doom model. Part five is the conclusion and part six talks about what to expect going forward.

Part I: Inflation and a normal bank
Inflation is a measure of the buying power of the dollar over time. I think most people have an intuitive sense of inflation. That level of understanding is all that is needed for this report. The inflation data in chart 1 comes from usinflationcalculator.com that they get from the BLS. There are other sources of inflation data out there and inflation is different across the various economic sectors. Right now inflation is 8%. This data gives a starting point for discussing some possible future outcomes.

View attachment 487057

Inflation plays an important role in deciding how to manage extra money. Imagine you are a very simple finance 101 traditional bank owner. You have deposits of dollars sitting in the vault. In an inflationary environment those dollars sitting in that pile will be worth less in the future. Your bank has fixed costs like paying employees, heating bills, electricity bills, rent, pens on little chains, etc. The cost of all of these things are getting more expensive due to inflation. You, being a prudent business person, want to use your pile of money to earn some kind of return. In order for you to stay in business and be profitable the rate of return on those invested dollars must exceed the rate of inflation so you that you can keep up with the rising cost of doing business.

This is a very simple business model. It is a mathematical fact (in this simple model) that a rate of return lower than the rate of inflation is a money loser. I realize there are other factors in determining where to invest money such as the cost (i.e. compensating your bank depositors), risk, liquidity, legality/regulations, and many other things.

If you are on board with my assertion that at a minimum returns must be greater than inflation to be profitable then lets keep going.

An obvious business case for a bank is to use that pile of cash to provide loans. The interest rate on those loans must be at rate of inflation at minimum to break even. On the other end you want the interest rate to be as high as possible so you can make more money. Borrowers want the absolute lowest rate possible because it saves them money. These are conditions for a very simple and straight forward free market model. At some interest rate the borrowers and lenders will agree and the transaction will proceed.

Inflation feedback loop type 1: rates too low

Imagine now you are a borrower and you manage to score a loan from a very badly managed bank at a rate that is below the rate of inflation. What do you do now? A very simple example investment would be to buy a good that is rising at the pace of inflation, for example a scarce asset like oil. You take the loan and immediately go buy a bunch of barrels of oil and store them in your garage to sell in the future at a higher price when the loan must be repaid.

It is easy to understand what will happen to the cost of oil using simple supply and demand. You buying supply causes prices to increase (assuming demand and production stays the same). Idiot Savings and Loan, who gave you this loan, is now seeing higher fixed costs due to rising oil prices (and thus energy prices among other things) and its bank vault is being depleted. At some point after repeating this exercise many times the bank goes bust. You as the borrower sucked money out of that dumb banks vault and into your pocket via simple oil trading.

Once the bank goes bust the feedback loop stops. That idiot bank went out of business you can no longer find a rate that is below inflation so you can't keep running this money machine. That eases the supply crunch on oil and prices either stay the same or go back to where they were before. When rates are above the rate of inflation borrowers have to make some kind of effort to use money in a productive manner.

Now we have a basic understanding as to why interest rates that are below the rate of inflation drive inflation higher. There is profit to be made using cheap money to buy inflating assets which drives up prices of those inflating assets. I call this inflation feedback loop type 1. There is a proper name for this in some economic textbook that I am not going to read.

We just saw an example of this in action in the US and probably other places in the world. Type 1 feedback was an important contributing factor to the housing price inflation that occurred from 2020 until mid 2022. I recognize there were several other contributing factors because the real world is more complex than our simplified example. The rate of return on buying houses finally dropped below inflation so, as far as investors are concerned, buying a house at these rates is a losing proposition. Cheap money buyers are gone so prices are starting to drop. If cheap money were still available the prices would still be going up.

Part II: The Federal Government budget

We explored using very simple ideas the relationship between interest rates and inflation. Now we are going to examine a few key metrics of the US federal government budget. At the end we will examine a very simple model to explore the consequences of inflation and rates as it pertains to the federal government.

View attachment 487059

The first factor to consider is the current total debt. Some important take-aways from chart 2 are that prior to the 2008 Great Financial Crisis the total debt was like 10 trillion. It took all 242 years (1776 until 2008) to get from 0 to 10 trillion, then it took 14 years to get from 10T to 30+T. That is well more than 1 trillion added each year. Also bear in mind that this debt is borrowed from someone. As we discussed in the previous section, any sane lender is only going to give out a loan if the rate of return is higher than inflation.

View attachment 487060

Next there is the federal funds rate in chart 3. There is a fairly complex relationship between the funds rate and actual interest rates but for the sake of simplicity I will say that the funds rate is the interest rate that the US Government is charged for taking loans. At the moment the funds rate is around 4% and rising quickly. In the previous section we saw that the current rate of inflation is around to 8%. You may be asking yourself, how is the Federal government able to borrow at 4% when inflation is at 8%? We know that no sane lender would take that deal. For now it is sufficient to accept that there is a party out there willing to take that loss.

The Federal government is borrowing from some moron at a rate below inflation. However the government isn't an entrepreneurial enterprise trying to maximize profits so its not immediately just buying scarce assets so we don't have to worry about inflationary feedback loop type 1 occurring with the federal government. Ultimately being able to borrow below the rate of inflation is really just saving the government money on interest payments on its debt. That should be a good thing, right? We'll get to that. First we will look at how much it costs to service the debt.

View attachment 487061

Chart 4 is federal expenditures on interest. It shows how much it costs for the federal government to service its debt level. The lower the federal funds rate, the lower the interest payments are on a given debt level. This represents the cost to borrow the money. It isn't the repayment amount. If this were a credit card balance then paying this amount would not reduce the balance it would just prevent it from getting bigger. As you can see in the graph that the payment is now pushing past 700 billion.

Quick math based on a balance of 30T and a rate of 4% would come out to 1.2 trillion. The actual payment is lower because a lot of the debt was financed in the past at a lower rate. Eventually all of the debt would get refinanced at the current rate but the effects of rate rises are not felt immediately on the entire debt ball.

View attachment 487062

One question to ask is how affordable is this 700B payment. It is prudent to also consider income when evaluating total debt and interest payments. Maybe the US has an ungodly amount of income. There are many sources of income for the federal govt but I am going to just look at tax receipts in chart 5. Tax receipts are currently around 3.2 trillion and are the highest ever. This is good, it means that a 700B interest payment is below our total income so there is money to spare for other things in the budget. I'm sure you recall in the first graph that the debt ball is getting bigger and in the past 14 years it is growing by over 1 Trillion per year. Despite taking in record tax income the government is spending roughly 1 trillion more per year than it takes in. I'm going to assert without evidence that the tax revenue growth since 2020 is mainly a result of all the stimulus money and as a result tax revenue is likely to go down in the future.

View attachment 487063

Chart 6 shows the budget surplus/deficit in slightly more detail. The US govt has been running deficits for a while but lately the deficits are getting bigger. The main takeaway here is that the federal budget deficit is increasing. The budget is controlled by congress so the only way the deficits can be reduced is if congress does something about it. The US Government has to borrow money to cover this deficit. We talked about how fed funds rates are at 4% but inflation is at 8%. Who is financing the US Federal government debt?

Part III: The hero idiot bank: The Federal Reserve Bank

Our simple banking model says that a lender cannot stay in business if it is giving out loans at a rate below the inflation rate. The reason is because the cost of doing business rises at the rate of inflation and so by giving out loans that return less than inflation, eventually they will run out of money.

This basic fact does not apply to the Federal reserve bank because they are able to legally counterfeit money, unlike every other bank. Money printing in this manner causes inflation because increases the money supply. Money printing is inflationary but on its own it does not create a feedback loop. It must be combined with Federal government deficits in order to create a loop.

The federal government spends every dollar it borrows on all kinds of things. In a simple non-clown world, the federal government would borrow what it needs from various regular banks. The money that the government borrows and spends in non-clown world existed in a vault somewhere. Here in clown world, where the interest rate is below the rate of inflation, no sane bank will lend to the federal government because that bank wants to stay in business. That only leaves the worst run bank, the federal reserve, to finance these loans. The federal reserve bank has deposits but not enough deposits to lend out trillions every year to cover the deficit. It gets the money for these loans by (metaphorically) printing it.

The federal reserve bank (the Fed) and the federal government are separate entities. The fed does a lot of banker things and the government does government things. They have different responsibilities and there is no important overlap. The most important thing the fed does as far as we are concerned is that the Fed acts just like a simple bank that provides loans to the federal government. The fed has three important differences that make it unlike a regular bank. First, it doesn't have to protect its bottom line. Unlike a normal bank the fed doesn't have to be profitable so it can give loans no matter how stupid of an idea it is. Second, the Fed is obligated to finance the Federal government when no one else will. I don't know if it is actually legally obligated but it probably is. Third, it can print money. It doesn't need to have deposits to give out loans. This also means it can never go bust no matter how many bad loans it gives out.

If normal banks don't loan money to the government then the Fed prints the money that it loans to the federal government. The money is spent by the government on all kinds of programs including government employee wages, medicare, military hardware (that gets sent to Ukraine), vaccines, and other infuriating garbage. This spending is simple one-time money supply inflation because its financed with printed money.

The more money that gets printed the higher inflation goes and the more it costs to run the government. In addition, the total debt gets larger.

Inflation caused by the printed money increases the cost to operate the government. It will need to borrow even more money during the next budget cycle. In addition, borrowing money increased the total debt which increased the interest payments. Those additional payments need to be covered by borrowing again. The money that is borrowed to cover operations and interest is printed by the fed. This process is inflationary feedback loop type 2. Its driven by the combination of printing money and federal debt.

Is there a way to reduce inflation that doesn't depend on rates? Yes, kind of. That way is to completely crater the economy. Covid-19 showed us exactly how an economy can be cratered. This will reduce demand because no one has a job or money to spend. That will necessarily reduce prices and tame inflation. Inflation will go down for a while but recessions do not fix the deficit so it won't help the government to escape a feedback loop type 2. In fact, recessions make the loop worse.

The type 2 money printing inflation loop gets supercharged during times of economic recession. The government has the option to stimulate the economy and it usually will. Stimulus means even higher deficits and more borrowing of printed money. In addition, usually tax receipts will go down during a recession because businesses go bust and don't pay taxes and fewer people are working and paying taxes. Usually asset prices crash during a recession as well so capital gains turn to capital losses.

All of this translates to bigger deficits, more borrowing, more debt, and higher interest payments on that debt. All this borrowed money has to be printed because again, no sane bank is going to lend money to the federal government when the return is less than the rate of inflation. A lot of times the fed funds rate will get cut during a recession to help finance the stimulus. Depending on what is going on with inflation this may or may not cause type 1 inflation feedback (buying assets), but it certainly will cause type 2 because the federal debt gets bigger and is financed with money printing.

Part IV: Debt doom

We know that having the fed funds rate below the rate of inflation causes inflation through two very simple inflation feedback loops. Naturally one might reasonably ask, why not raise the federal funds rate to above inflation?

There is point where the interest payments on that borrowed money hits 100% of all income. This is the point that I am calling debt doom: when 100% of income is needed just to service the debt. At debt doom no amount of cutting the budget can solve the problem. The only option is to raise taxes but that will come with its own set of problems because people would be paying taxes and getting absolutely no services for it. Debt doom comes at some combination of interest rates, total debt, and income level.

I whipped together a very simple debt doom model. The most glaring simplifying assumption in this model is that the entire debt is financed at the same rate. I still think it is a helpful tool.

View attachment 487064

Each curve on the “Debt doom curves” graph represents of a level of income in trillions of dollars ranging from 5T on the high end to 1.2T on the low end. The y-axis represents the total amount of debt held and the x-axis is the interest rate on that debt. If you are on a particular curve it means that at that level of debt and interest rate 100% of income is required to service the debt.

The way to use this model is to draw a horizontal line at the a chosen level of debt. In this graph there is a red dashed line at about 31T. Follow the line where it intersects each income curve. As long as your income curve is above the horizontal debt line you can survive that level of debt at that interest rate. The point where your curve crosses below the horizontal debt line is the interest rate of death. That is the interest rate where you go fundamentally insolvent. For example if the debt is 31T and income is 5T (the highest curve), you are safe because the 5T curve never crosses the 31T debt line at any realistically possible interest rates. However if income is only 1.2T (the lowest curve), you go bust when rates hit 4%.

Another way to use this model is to follow the yellow 3.2T curve in the middle of the curves. That represents the current tax income for the US government. If interest rates were at 3% the total debt can reach 110T before all 3.2T of income is needed to service the debt. On the other hand at 11% is the interest rate of death: where the curve crosses the horizontal debt line.

The yellow curve with a 3.2T income is the curve that I consider us to be on right now. If rates hit 11% it is debt doom. Inflation is currently at 8% so in order to tame inflation the fed rate should be higher than 8%. As I said, that assumes the entire debt ball gets financed at 8% and that isn't true, but the direction is correct. If rates go up, interest payments go up. There is a limit to how high the payment can go before its unsustainable. Given that we are already running a deficit many would argue we are already past the point of debt doom.

Back in 2008 we were on the bottom curve with a total income around 1.2T. However total debt was around 8T. Inflation back then was around 5.5%. There was no need to raise rates beyond 6% so there was a lot further to go back then to get to debt doom.

As I said, this is a very simplified calculation. There are many other nuances to consider but the underlying principle remains the same. There is a known quantity of existing debt. There is some level of income that the federal government generates so pick the curve that you think that income level is. There is some interest rate on the current debt where all income is needed to service that debt. That is the point where nothing can be done about it. Congress can cut every program and collect the taxes and only pay the interest payments. The debt would never get smaller. Tax payers would receive absolutely no benefit from paying taxes. The tipping point may be well before the interest payment burden hits 100% so these doom curves are a worst (or maybe best) case scenario.

Once we hit debt doom, what happens? We get stuck in money printing inflation feedback loop type 2. No one is going to loan money at a rate below inflation so it gets printed by the Fed then loaned to the government. Every budget cycle inflation will be worse than the last cycle. The total debt gets bigger each time money is borrowed the pay the deficit and the cost to run the government grows with inflation. So in the next cycle more has to be borrowed to cover the bigger interest payments on the bigger debt and the higher cost of running the government. High inflation will eventually turn to hyperinflation. A much more detailed analysis on this inflation loop is covered in the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread.

You may have noticed on the chart that as interest rates move towards 0% the amount of debt that can be financed goes up (to infinity). What is the consequence of moving rates toward 0%, wouldn't that save the government a lot of money? The answer is yes, it would. However, the mechanism by which the federal funds rate is set means that other non-government entities can also access these 0% loans. Access to loans below rate of inflation will cause inflation feedback type 1 where borrowers take this free money and buy oil and other scarce goods causing inflation to rise. The bigger the spread between the loan and the rate of inflation the faster it causes inflation. Also another nuance to all this is that the fed prints the money to finance below market loans which will cause money supply inflation and supercharge the type 1 inflation feedback loop. Remember that a type 1 inflation loop only stops when the idiot lender goes broke. The fed can't go broke so this loop will continue for as long as the loan rate is below inflation.

Low rates will lead to inflation loop type 1 and also causes inflation loop type 2 if the government is running deficits. With rates below inflation no sane bank would lend to the government because it is a money losing proposition. The government must borrow to cover the deficit (in order to pay the capitol police to fend off the mobs) so it has to get the money from the fed. The fed prints the money and lends it to the government which causes inflation and increases the total debt. Both factors increases the deficit and so the government has to borrow more money next time.

Rates above inflation push the government into debt doom faster. Higher rates mean of the federal budget would be required to service the debt leaving less for everything else. The ever growing shortfall has to be borrowed at a higher interest rate. In theory if a regular bank give this loan it would not cause inflation. However, this regular bank knows that the Federal government is underwater. At debt doom the federal government is a deadbeat that has to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It would be stupid for any bank to give that loan because a borrower in that position is a huge risk. A higher return to account for that risk may incentivize the bank to give the loan. Higher rates means higher interest payments which will increase the deficit which makes it a riskier loan so rates go up. Won't be long before the Fed is the only bank dumb enough to underwrite loans to the underwater government and it will do it by printing the money and its back to inflation type 2.

Of course the unspeakable option is for the US government to default on its debt. At debt doom, 100% of the income is spent on interest payments to its creditors. The Government could tell its creditors to jump in a lake. The government would collect taxes and only pay for government services and not pay the interest payments. This could theoretically work as long as it never needs to borrow money again. There also are a lot of global implications from a US government default that I'll just say are very bad (because I can't even begin to unravel them).

The issue is that dumb idea is we are already running deficits to a degree that even if interest payments were wiped away there is still a budget deficit. Default does not solve the problem, it is already too late. if there were a default the US government would have burned every possible lender on Earth. The only bank stupid enough to lend it money to finance its deficit is the Federal Reserve Bank. This would lead right back to money printing and feedback loop type 2.

There is also the impossible options A and B. Right now today the interest payments are only 700b and tax income is 3.2 trillion and the total deficit is around 1T. it is still mathematically possible for congress to slash the budget and run a surplus. This will avert debt doom for as long as there are surpluses. Here are a few obvious issues with this option. First, under the false assumption that income stays constant in the future (it will go down), 1T must be cut from the budget somewhere. Second, if that amount were cut from the budget that would create a massive recession. Third, government services would be dropped but taxes would stay the same. People won't appreciate that. Lastly, debt doom won't happen today, it is the next administrations problem. Option B is to just raise taxes to generate more income instead of slashing the budget. I'll leave it to you to figure out why that's not likely to work.

Part V: Conclusion

The debt is too big and inflation is too high. This is different from the 2008 GFC because back then there was room to adjust rates up or down, we were not nearly as close to debt doom, and inflation wasn't as much of an issue. Government is currently being financed with money printing from the Fed. The deficit along with the fed funds rate being below the rate of inflation means that both types of inflation feedback loops are happening. The fed funds rate cannot rise above the current rate of inflation because that will push the federal government into debt doom. A deflationary recession will not save us because it will cause tax receipts to go down making the deficit worse. Whats more, the government will likely respond to a recession with stimulus spending making the debt worse. The fed lowering interest rates would ease the government interest payments for a while but would make inflation worse.

The fed cannot raise, lower, or maintain rates without causing inflationary feedback loops. The government can't default on the debt because even if the US wiped out its creditors it would build up a new debt with the fed as the sole lender and type 2 inflation feedback would continue, not to mention the international relations issues a default would cause. As said in the inflation write up, the fed has no way out.

A recession is coming and when it hits with full effect it is going to drive up deficits, drive down government income, and push the US government over the doom curve. If somehow there is no recession then debt doom is still coming eventually, unless we start seeing a lot of significant budget surpluses.

Part VI: what next?

I have referenced the Hyperinflation is coming - Explained thread which links to a great post on reddit written by a user named peruvian_bull. After writing this I understand that a lot better. In this write up we examined only the past 20 years or so and focused on the interaction between four basic elements: federal debt, deficit, inflation, and rates. Peruvian_bull's report explores many historical events that lead up to current events. It also provides many more details and technical evidence to support his conclusion of hyperinflation. If you read this and you find my conclusions too simplistic or lacking sufficient detail to be useful, then go read that.

My very simple and relatively conservative doom curve model says the US Federal government is on the precipice of debt doom. Additional debt will push it into debt doom. Once that happens it doesn't matter what the Fed or the government does. An inflationary feedback loop cannot be avoided.

Maybe someone at the Federal Reserve is smarter than me and has a brilliant plan. Maybe congress will pull of a miracle and do something so stupid that it works. The inflation thread provides historical examples of how nations in the past were able to move forward. In most cases the nation wipes away the debt with a new currency. That is most likely what will happen in the US. The digital dollar will be almost certainly be the new currency.

In another thread I pieced together a timeline of events that was all speculation. In general I think we have 5-7 years from today until the collapse of the dollar. That is to say, within 5-7 years we will all be forced to use the digital dollar and the old dollar will be worth like .000000001 digital dollars or something equally insane. I say this because in the Weimar Republic of WWI Era it took that empire about 5 years for the price of an egg to go from 1 mark to 1,000,000,000 marks. Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe was on a similar time scale although their economy was a mess for longer, in 2004 inflation there was 100% per year which is already really high and by 2008 it was millions of percent per year.

There are two events to watch for that signal when this multi-year collapse has begun. One or the other or both may happen. First is that the federal reserve bank will start to lower rates rather than raise them. Second, the fed prints money directly in response to Government stimulus or there is a “financial accident” at home or abroad. Once the fed either lowers rates or starts printing we are done, start the countdown to doom. Also let me cover my ass and say there could be all manner of black swan events that change everything in this analysis: something in China, a major war, an actual plague etc.

That said, I don't think debt doom will be the end of the world as we know it. I don't think it will be the end of the United States of America. The country will probably survive but the dollar probably will not. I don't know what the country will look like. This isn't about how to prepare. There is an excellent book written on how to prepare for this called “Surviving the Economic Collapse” by Fernando Aguirre. A similar crisis happened in Argentina roughly 20 years ago and that book is all about what the aftermath was like.

The billionaires know this is coming so if you have great wealth there are all kinds of ways to try to profit from this. I do not have great wealth so I don't know anything about that. Talk to a financial advisor if you have wealth to protect. If you depend on social security or a government retirement and plan to live for more than 5 years really study up on this because the coming collapse is going to be hardest for those that depend on the government.

Hopefully this write up was helpful for you to understand the predicament that the US Government is in right now. I tried to keep the concepts very simplified because that is how I understand it as a financial outsider. Every time I do a review of this I end up adding more stuff so I'm just going to post it now as is. I hope this was worth your time to read.
To quote Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bride. “Who are you?”
For the first time since FK left the forum I actually understand the logic or illogic of the current economic situation. I take it that you don’t place a lot of faith in the numbers put out by 5he Bureau of Labor Statistics?
To quote Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bride. “Who are you?”
For the first time since FK left the forum I actually understand the logic or illogic of the current economic situation. I take it that you don’t place a lot of faith in the numbers put out by 5he Bureau of Labor Statistics?
I consider the staff at the BLS to be government scientists. Government scientists produce the science that ensures they keep their government jobs. The inflation numbers reported for the past year have been way too low. I think in the past few months as the fed has been raising rates the actual rate of inflation has come down and is closer to the reported value.

The only source of inflation data that I am away of that isn't from the government is at Alternate Inflation Charts. I probably could have used that for my analysis but the actual rate of inflation doesn't matter so much as the difference between the fed rate and actual inflation.

I think the real crime from the BLS is their phoney baloney labor data. If you want to know more try this Another Strong Jobs Report? Phooey, and I Can Prove It
and this https://thegreatrecession.info/blog/the-damned-lies-that-unemployment-tells/
  • Helpful
  • Like
Reactions: 2
so. The faster the fed raises interest rates to tame inflation the more unemployment rises and we cross your line in what? Four years maybe. If the fed doesn’t reign in inflation and it continues to go up,and we cross your line sooner.Like four years. I’m using the supposition that our real revenues to the gub are in the neighborhood of four trillion.
Stuck between Scilla and Charibdis. So they lie with stats to befuddle the average person that everything is getting better albeit slowly. In reality that snowball keeps rolling down hill faster and faster.
AND all of this and your carefully and disturbingly thought out report does not even add in factors like war with Russia, disengagement of the BRICS from the petrodollar, the derivative bomb,war over Taiwan, or a plethora of other issues that would exacerbate the situation. None of them seem highly likely to happen by themselves but assuredly one of them will happen.
So maybe four years if nothing else happens? How about the new fusion discovery? Won’t that fix everything?😝
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 3
Interesting post. A few related things. I personally believe real inflation since 2019 and the money printed started is realistically 20-30% a year, that means over 3 years prices of real goods have close to doubled. Look at house prices. Priced out tools recently, I did and was pretty surprised at the increases.

All fiat currencies will collapse. It's simply a matter of time. There will be an end to the dollar and a migration to something else, likely with the same flaws. The only debate is when, maybe tomorrow, in 5 years or 50.

When the government makes the rules they do things in their own benefit. We may end up a in world where the fed rate is 9% but the government gets a special deal and only has to pay 4% on government debt because, well because they say so and that is the end of that.

My crystal ball isn't better than anyone else's but here is my guess as to what it will take to avoid a USD collapse, be that hyperinflation or a deep depression.

The fed is painted into a corner. If they don't keep raising rates inflation will keep going crazy, the end result will be needing a new currency. If they do raise rates adequately, say to 8 or 9 percent, the .gov will have have to stop spending increases. Its only wishful thinking to think meaningful cuts will be made. Part of cuts will be likely means testing welfare, SS, medicare. Then raise taxes, a little on the middle, lots on the high earners. Likely close tax loopholes, namely corporate ones.
See less See more
so. The faster the fed raises interest rates to tame inflation the more unemployment rises and we cross your line in what? Four years maybe. If the fed doesn’t reign in inflation and it continues to go up,and we cross your line sooner.Like four years. I’m using the supposition that our real revenues to the gub are in the neighborhood of four trillion.
Stuck between Scilla and Charibdis. So they lie with stats to befuddle the average person that everything is getting better albeit slowly. In reality that snowball keeps rolling down hill faster and faster.
AND all of this and your carefully and disturbingly thought out report does not even add in factors like war with Russia, disengagement of the BRICS from the petrodollar, the derivative bomb,war over Taiwan, or a plethora of other issues that would exacerbate the situation. None of them seem highly likely to happen by themselves but assuredly one of them will happen.
So maybe four years if nothing else happens? How about the new fusion discovery? Won’t that fix everything?😝
The only variables in the debt doom model are interest rates, total debt, and income. Under an assumption of 4T income it would probably take a while to get to debt doom. The model is a guide to help you approximate the point of no return based on your own estimates of variables.

There are a bunch of potential black swan events out there that could set things off. I think whatever is going to pop-off is going to happen in 2023. This is based on gut feeling. I only today discovered FranchiseKid's post from 2009 Ode To Squeak, The Collapse of World Currencies. I'm trying to understand why his prediction has taken so long to come to pass. What made it possible to defer that crisis until now? Right now I think the critical difference between now and then is inflation. The first chart in the original post shows inflation when that crisis kicked off was roughly 4%. Today that metric is 8% (actually probably higher), and the debt is bigger.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek with that fusion remark but it is unfortunately basically fake news. yes they did make a baby step towards viable fusion but let me quote myself from another thread.
Hate to rain on the parade but here I go anyway.

Don't get too excited. There is still a very long way to go. This twitter thread pretty much breaks it down.
Here is the important bit "The experiment released 2.5 megajoules vs 2.1 MJ of laser energy. But due to inefficiencies, the lasers consume ~330 MJ to charge, with the energy stored in 3,840 high-voltage capacitors for 60 seconds before being released in a 400-microsecond burst "

They got a positive return on the laser energy which is a breakthrough but there is still a very long way to go because it took 130x as much energy to charge up that super inefficient laser.
See less See more
  • Helpful
Reactions: 1
Interesting post. A few related things. I personally believe real inflation since 2019 and the money printed started is realistically 20-30% a year, that means over 3 years prices of real goods have close to doubled. Look at house prices. Priced out tools recently, I did and was pretty surprised at the increases.

All fiat currencies will collapse. It's simply a matter of time. There will be an end to the dollar and a migration to something else, likely with the same flaws. The only debate is when, maybe tomorrow, in 5 years or 50.

When the government makes the rules they do things in their own benefit. We may end up a in world where the fed rate is 9% but the government gets a special deal and only has to pay 4% on government debt because, well because they say so and that is the end of that.

My crystal ball isn't better than anyone else's but here is my guess as to what it will take to avoid a USD collapse, be that hyperinflation or a deep depression.

The fed is painted into a corner. If they don't keep raising rates inflation will keep going crazy, the end result will be needing a new currency. If they do raise rates adequately, say to 8 or 9 percent, the .gov will have have to stop spending increases. Its only wishful thinking to think meaningful cuts will be made. Part of cuts will be likely means testing welfare, SS, medicare. Then raise taxes, a little on the middle, lots on the high earners. Likely close tax loopholes, namely corporate ones.
Clever,

Your crystsl ball or is it tea leaves or coffee grounds or discussions with the witch of Endor, ... is better than much other material on this subject here at Forum, IMO.

We already have a financial history of one rate for privte sector borowing and one rate for public sector borrowing for the same type of project with both sectors seeking the same/similiar borrowing with same/similiar rate. When a muncipality goes to Wall Street to get funding fo eg a water project and so, too, does a private sector corp, there are 2 different packages offered by Wall Street. Why ? The muncipality is in a fixed location. The corp just does the comparison costng and could be opening their project in eg Indonesia. That's what's been going on. We're supposed to see some changes to international business arrangements, I'm looking forward to continue this wait and see.

I think the middle class will experience no less of tax burdens than high earners.

Actually, the Fed is more neutral than painting itself into a corner. Anticipate private ownership of cars fading away. House ownership ?! Think of the Honey Mooners apartment traditionally known for buying the insurance policy for anything on the kitchen table. A big change is that insurance for anything will be out of reach for many of the middle class.

Prep, prep, prep.
See less See more
  • Helpful
Reactions: 1
So was todays four trillion in options expiring and the dump in the DOW the first of the mini swan tipping points?
So was todays four trillion in options expiring and the dump in the DOW the first of the mini swan tipping points?
The stock market peaked in January and has been skidding every since. I think it's finally sinking in that we're headed for a recession. Companies are laying off and taking on debt, with capital fleeing the stock market and going to bonds...
Bonds give recession signals
"Given the increase in yields, especially for clients prioritizing safety and income, we have been allocating larger portions of our portfolios to investment-grade corporate bonds, as well as tax-free municipal bonds for those in higher tax brackets," Soloff told FOX Business.

The move by top-rated companies into the investment-grade bond market is expected to continue, regardless of economic conditions or what the Federal Reserve does with interest rates. Many companies have bonds maturing in the near term. Others may look to refinance before the Fed completes its current interest rate hiking cycle.

Top-rated companies began dipping into the bond market in August when Apple, Intel and Facebook parent Meta Platforms all issued investment-grade bonds—$5.5 billion for Apple, $6 billion for Intel and $10 billion for Meta, which took on debt for the first time.

A few months later, they all announced layoffs or hiring freezes. Intel laid off thousands of workers in October, Bloomberg reported. Apple announced a pause in hiring in November for many jobs outside research and development, Bloomberg also said. Meta slashed its workforce by 13%, or 11,000 employees.
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 2
So was todays four trillion in options expiring and the dump in the DOW the first of the mini swan tipping points?
Its hard to say. I don't think that it will be mainly because everyone can see this coming. The fed has been saying that "financial conditions are not sufficiently tight yet" or something along those lines. They are prepared and expect to the market to move down. The big/smart money that moves markets knows the fed knows. I don't expect things to go haywire unless the fed responds and does something it hasn't telegraphed ahead of time.

In my tiny brain I think the tipping point needs to involve a central bank of a major economy doing something unpredicted, likely in response to a crisis.
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 3
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top