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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We all talk about the train-wreck we are heading for, 13 trillion in debt that Moody’s projects that debt service could hit 22.4% of revenue by 2013. Even at current levels these debts could lower our AAA rating. On top of all that "REVENUES" will continue to fall as unemployment reaches even higher levels.

We all know that massive problems we have....

BUT....if we made corrective measures things such as:

-Massive cuts in Social Security
-Cuts in Medicare and Medicade
-Defense Cuts
-Dropped the recent health bill

In other words Balance the Budget with 100 Billion or so to apply to the principle of the debt (just an estimate).

Could we survive as a Nation if we made these hard choices now or would these cuts hurt us even more??

We would have:

-The Elderly with no food
-New unemployment with defense cuts
-Sick people left to die

and on and on

I guess I'm asking is it better to pay now or later, because one way or another something has to give.

your thoughts please
 

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Does our nation even know what the right thing is any longer?
I don't think our nation knows any longer, whether you define our nation as:
The federal government (those elected officials who are supposed to represent us)
The majority of nation's citizens.

Even if they somehow learned WHAT the right thing is, they would not know HOW to achieve it.

Even if they somehow learned HOW, I doubt they would choose to withstand the sacrifice it would mean for the nation as a whole and most of all, for every individual.

Always hoping to be wrong regarding our fellow citizens, but unable to see evidence that challenges this view.
 

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This is what the true dilema is...

Immigration: do we just put them all on busses and drop them off at the border? What about the "anchor babies"? Legally, by our Constitution, these children are citizens (regardless), should we seperate children from their parents or send them back until they are 18?

Medicare and Medicaid: Do we allow all those people to go without? Do we make allowances for children? Who wants to make the choice?

Social Security: Do we just cut it off, taper it off, or keep going? No one wants granny and gramps moving in with them (many do, but in general it's not everyone's choice)

War: do we just pack everyone up and bring them all home, not finishing what thousands have died for? if so, what will all those soldiers do for work?

Imports: Do we put stiff tariffs on imports, there by raising prices & ticking off our trading partners? Will that bring manufacturing back here? If so, how long would that take?

No one wants to make the hard decisions. I think we could do a lot of things, like phase out social security, get rid of some of the useless government departments, freeze all government wages, bring home the troops and put them to work here, guarding the borders....lots of things, but no one will actually do it.
 

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Neo Confederate
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If we drop the recent Health care bill, nothing would change as it hasn't gone into effect yet.

I would say reduce the payments for older folks who get more than one thousand dollars a month per person.

Definitely cut government wages, benefits and pensions, to the point where you make more money in the private sector.

Reduce taxes across the board, which always stimulates the economy.

Reduce the size of the federal government, they have their fingers in too many places where they don't belong.
 

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RESET CONGRESS!!
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Our fearless 'leaders' do not have the political will to make the hard choices.
I believe the American people would revolt if they did.
I think we've at least 5 years too late to avoid the cliff.

One thing is certain, the correction WILL come. Whether via tough choices or the inevitable crash. It will come. I agree with the poster above. This bloated genie will no longer FIT back in the bottle. Prep, folks.

Think I'll go plant some more veggies.
 

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Consent Withdrawn!
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OM, I wish it could be saved. But, I fear the forest must burn for a new one to grow; this government must fail utterly, for the republic to be restored.
IMO, we never had a chance because the founding fathers danced around the issue of slavery instead of dealing with it from the beginning. It was a cancer that was the excuse to split us.
Then the us congress used the war between American Nations to give us the demonic 14th amendment, using illegal constitutional powers to implement reconstruction to purportedly ratify it.
Since July 9, 1968 all persons, and corporations, in America have been "citizens" of the US, first. Otherwise known as "SUBJECTS" with all our God given rights revoked and supplanted by "rights and privileges" given by the federal government.
Our parents and ancestors, got used to the government doing for them. It started off with little taxation doing some really good things.
Then the taxes grew, and the waste and corruption grew.
And, now, "everybody" expects the government to take care of them; that the government is benevolent and has our best interests at heart, and has all the answers.
The path that brought us here amazes me. And, depresses me.

It wasn't just the 14th.
Alexander Hamilton should never have been allowed into the country. He was a traitor. He gave us nationalization of the war debt and our return to British domination through the banking and borrowing we did from them. The British have controlled us through the international banks almost from the beginning. Research the First and Second Banks of the US and the Federal Reserve System.
The War of 1812 brought about the burning of the Capital and many of the original US documents, including the first and original 13th Amendment, which just disappeared after the war... remember the "Titles of Nobility Act" that made it illegal for agents of the crown, members of the BAR, lawyers, to hold office in the US? No? Imagine that.

No, we were doomed from the start. I guess we deserve true liberty and freedom no more than the Kurds and Sunnis. I mean we had it for a brief moment and let it slip through our fingers.

Like Ben Franklin said, and I paraphrase, when a woman asked him what kind of government we had been given..."A republic, Madam. If you can keep it."

We didn't.
 

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Sam Adams was right....
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in a word... no.

We're suffering from our own age demographics, as our population crosses the threshold of "more older than younger"... the requirement for subsidized services increases.. yet those who need those services are no longer contributing to the economy... and those that are, will be fewer in number than those who will need the services...

Ironically, I think this is the main premise for the governments "porous borders" policy... its some covert attempt at increasing the number of younger workers, because the birthrate for immigrant families is triple the average US rate.

This in combination with all the financial shenanigans currently employed by Bernanke and Co. are creating a "perfect storm" in the worst possible way...
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
This is what the true dilema is...

Immigration: do we just put them all on busses and drop them off at the border? What about the "anchor babies"? Legally, by our Constitution, these children are citizens (regardless), should we seperate children from their parents or send them back until they are 18?

Medicare and Medicaid: Do we allow all those people to go without? Do we make allowances for children? Who wants to make the choice?

Social Security: Do we just cut it off, taper it off, or keep going? No one wants granny and gramps moving in with them (many do, but in general it's not everyone's choice)

War: do we just pack everyone up and bring them all home, not finishing what thousands have died for? if so, what will all those soldiers do for work?

Imports: Do we put stiff tariffs on imports, there by raising prices & ticking off our trading partners? Will that bring manufacturing back here? If so, how long would that take?

No one wants to make the hard decisions. I think we could do a lot of things, like phase out social security, get rid of some of the useless government departments, freeze all government wages, bring home the troops and put them to work here, guarding the borders....lots of things, but no one will actually do it.
exactly,

It just seems like the cure is more than we have the political will or even the nation resolve to even get us on the right path!

In other words, TS will HTF because it has too!
 

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Gone for Good
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I think that the leaders and govt. just need to understand there is a real problem. With all these new socialist giveaways and more planned they just don't get it. Public sector pay & benefits should be 20% LESS than the public sector not more. Politicians perks should all be eliminated except for a minimal health care plan.. You get paid and thats it,just like everyone else.

A complete phase out of Social Security except for "real" disabled people. Its long overdue for people to start saving and investing for their own future no excuses. No welfare or unemployment benefits without doing public service work for it. Fixing potholes,rebuilding run down buildings,growing food etc.The number of people collecting will go down with the extra incentive to get productive work. I'm sure I'll here the howls over that but its just reality to change the sweetheart giveaways. Everyone living in govt sponsored housing should spend 8 hours a day doing maint. and improvements on those units. How many of those people will stay if they have to work? I'll bet the crime rate will drop also with productive work required to get any public benefits.

A hard choice but I have zero faith in anything like that being done. The bankrupt and downward spiral will go until the end. The entitlement crowd would never allow any change in their grand lifestyle at others expense.

Red
 

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Shuriken snowflake
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The right thing is to make poor and old people suffer?

If it's THERE you need to cut back, no I don't see hope for your nation.

Why not just shoot your expensive grandparents? They just worked for EVERYTHING you have today?

But to do the right thing you have to be callous....

Right thing my behind! You will just foster people into less compassion and harsher thinking which in the long run will benefit no one.

But defense cuts why not? If by defense you mean the very costly (in money and lives) habit to send your citizens to totally different parts of the world. Would save some dough for sure!
 

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Criminitly!
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You guys are all kidding yourself if you think they won't collect the taxes for the healthcare. That new tax will make the massive interest payments on the money borrowed. If you think you will get health care.....HA! I say! HA! HA! HA! I say again. Its sole purpose is to keep the system afloat for a while longer. Republicans have already said they will not fund the measure......remember 68% of people didn’t want it…..not funding simply means they will gladly collect the taxes but not one red cent for health care! To repeal means we get no healthcare and they get no new taxes. Democrats fully knew passing it that the people didn't want it...so in my opinion this was a way to pass new taxes.

All of these already happen with inflation….I believe Mr. Greenspan is on record saying “we can guarantee the dollars will be there, we can not guarantee the value of the dollar.”
Massive cuts in Social Security
Cuts in Medicare and Medicade
Dropped the recent health bill
The Elderly with no food
New unemployment
Sick people left to die

Sadly, I believe this will only happen if the nation breaks up.
Defense Cuts

Lets face it, our government works for Wallstreet and has decide people are commodities to be used at will and taxed. There is a word for when companies losses are public (bailed out) but gains are all private. Top down solutions have and are destroying our country. They own the money, they manipulate the money, they print the money. It is their tool.


On the bright side, the revolution starts here, every body here taking care of themselves and family. Doing the garden, paying off debt, paying in cash, not lusting after what you don’t have but loving what you have. Slowly and surly Americans are waking up. Though Helicopter Ben is in full print mode credit and money are falling off a cliff. That means people are saving and paying in cash and not taking on the debt either because they can’t or won’t. Either way starves the machine of what is needs. The only way to save nation will be from the bottom up. Starting with you, then your family, then your neighbor and so on.
 

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We could be facing a false dualism, an economic false flag, etc.

As I've written in many other threads -- productivity, robotics in manufacturing, global mass communications, miniaturization, computers, etc. is far, far beyond anything humanity has had in the past. So why haven't ordinary people been allowed to cash in on all of these advances? Why are we stuck with high taxes, massive cutbacks, or both?

Clearly there are real problems in our economy:

* Too few control too much.
* Excessive usury (amortization in mortgages), excessive lending, excessive renting (all contributing to a denial of property ownership).
* So many have not owned so little equity since the Great Depression.

So it seems RIDICULOUS to me that given the VERY REAL advances in manufacturing and productivity on the one hand -- and hugely disproportionate layout of wealth on the other hand -- that we must chose between higher taxes or massively curtailed benefits.

Sounds like we're back on track to serfdom.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The right thing is to make poor and old people suffer?

If it's THERE you need to cut back, no I don't see hope for your nation.

Why not just shoot your expensive grandparents? They just worked for EVERYTHING you have today?

But to do the right thing you have to be callous....

Right thing my behind! You will just foster people into less compassion and harsher thinking which in the long run will benefit no one.

But defense cuts why not? If by defense you mean the very costly (in money and lives) habit to send your citizens to totally different parts of the world. Would save some dough for sure!


I'm not saying to shoot grandparents, I'm asking what hard choices do we make.

Where would you cuts that balances the budget?

 

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Duh Why not just move your grandparents in with you? I grew up in a three generation house. Why can't everyone else. Maybe a LOT of people would start getting creative and getting out there and doing something instead of saying poor me.

What a terrible thought make people work for their own well being.

I'm old and at least I won't have to deal with the all these poor decisions. Let the giveaways continue until there is no one left to pay for it all. If I lost 95% of my assets I will still live fat for the rest of my life. I guess thats the best way for me to think. Its someones elses problem! Where have I heard that before!:(

Red

The right thing is to make poor and old people suffer?

If it's THERE you need to cut back, no I don't see hope for your nation.

Why not just shoot your expensive grandparents? They just worked for EVERYTHING you have today?

But to do the right thing you have to be callous....

Right thing my behind! You will just foster people into less compassion and harsher thinking which in the long run will benefit no one.

But defense cuts why not? If by defense you mean the very costly (in money and lives) habit to send your citizens to totally different parts of the world. Would save some dough for sure!
 

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I always ask the same question, and rarely get a decent reply.

"To whom is the money owed?"

It's a zero sum game. If one entity owes money, another or others are owed that money.

If the whole world is in debt... someone must be sitting pretty.

Realise that it's one big shell game and that the aim is to enslave you in total poverty.

If you can't acknowledge that truth, what are you doing on a survivalist site?
 
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