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Purrpared
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Large portions of the country are shifting back to a private-citizen-enforcement model for street crime. Nice way to say we treated good cops badly and now they're being defunded, so not so many people are doing the job they used to do rather well. That leaves private citizens to either roll over and accept that we'll get hassled, robbed and/or beaten whenever some criminal thinks it's appropriate, or we learn to defend ourselves with all the resultant problems of an armed society where some of members aren't so bright, nor trained on how to handle a loaded weapon without acting like the south end of a northbound donkey.

A person in my NextDoor group is very anti-police, blames them for every social ill she can think of. Her car got broken into last week: Classic smash the window, grab the valuables left in the car, then start running when the homeowner looks outside. No cameras at her house, that's a way for "them" to control you. Did she take care of it herself, or call on fellow anarchists? No, she called 9-1-1 and was quite indignant at how long it took an officer to show up. She blamed the slow response on the officer "knowing who she was." As another lady commented "You had the city get rid of half of them, remember?"

Down here in low income land we pretty much accept that law enforcement is becoming what it was in my childhood in East L.A. You call the emergency number for a health crisis where you can't take the patient to the ER yourself, for an actual or potential murder, or when you caught a bad guy in the act. Then you wait anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes for one of the two deputies on duty to get free. They didn't even respond to theft reports if the robber wasn't clotheslined to a streetlight with a bunch of guys with baseball bats standing around. Well, they said they responded, but it could be up to 3 days later because the two deputies we were assigned had to escort the fire department on all their calls, deal with actual life threatening, siren-worthy police calls, then calls where the bad guy was still there and they had some hope of making an arrest instead of being expected to go find a "skinny guy in a white tee shirt and jeans with a Dodgers cap and he had a knife or maybe it was a screwdriver?" which fit the description of 99% of the men in town.

For most of my adult life one could dial 9-1-1 and hear sirens within minutes. It's going to be a big adjustment for people who've always had that magic number to summon armed, well trained help at a moment's notice to break up domestics, fight off armed intruders, do CPR, recover lost children, haul off bad guys, pick up dogs running in the road, stop drunks driving the wrong way, and basically cope with society's problems so we don't have to DIY our safety.
 

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Indefatigable
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21,478 Posts
No idea!!!

Perhaps made in China???

Granted, we did spring for personalized, so there is that. Shouldn't have taken a Month, in normalcy...
OK is months behind in issuing DLs and tags. And 13 YEARS behind issuing Real ID. OK just opened a couple of emergency mega-centers to try and catch up. We renewed our tag by mail as soon as we got the notice, it was due at the end of June and we just received it 9-4. A lot of states are in the same situation.
The state's first driver's license 'megacenter' open in Oklahoma City
 
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^^^^ Until it effects you personally. Anybody that thinks this is good shouldn't be locking their doors
I hadn't really considered it until just now ... But I haven't locked my doors in years . In fact I think I would have a hard time coming up with keys for the deadbolts that I installed 10 years ago. I take that back oh, I locked them when I went camping for about eight weeks last year, not since....
 

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Born 120 years too late.
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6,356 Posts
Discussion Starter · #44 ·
"spider sense."

However, black drivers in black neighborhoods (or especially in white neighborhoods) more often set off officers' "spider sense." The numbers clearly show that a drivers' race greatly affects his or her chance of being stopped by police. That needs to stop. If officer's won't change this habit, we have to take away any incentive for the habit.

I DON'T know how officers are set out in their patrol districts in every other city, but, in my city and others I am familiar with, the number of cars sent to work in a patrol assignment is that high crime areas get more and low crime areas get fewer...is that rational... or is that RACIST???

There were areas in the city which geographically were much larger and there were more people, but the area had 1/10th, yes, that is ONE TENTH of the cars. And, as you listened to the radio for calls, the people working those areas were bored to death from having nothing to do but respond to barking dogs and loud kids and maybe a speeding ticket and occasional stolen 10 speed bike, while in my world you just hoped you got off the streets in one piece that night and you never had a free moment to do anything, including get to lunch. IS that showing white favoritism or RACIST or is that rational assignment of patrol assets?
SO
You have an attempted saturation of officers in a high crime environment, there will be more officers there to observe these violations, where the other folks live and travel and fail to maintain their vehicles. Is it racist to have more cars where they are needed? NO.. the racist thing would be to have exactly the same number of cars everywhere so the people who are being shot stabbed beaten and raped have to wait much longer for police response while other groups have nothing to do because in some areas of the city there really is no need for the same kind of presence.

You cannot have it both ways, people WANT police protection against them being pillaged by the animals, but then you cannot complain when the police actually do what the taxpayers are paying them to do, that is being policemen.
 

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"TURGID FLUX"
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If an officer suspects the driver of THAT blue Chevy has committed a crime, he or she should be able to express why he suspects that. Otherwise, it seems to me a lot of bank robbers and drug dealers might be getting away because their tags are current and their taillights work.



Yes, they are. If society wants to make a major effort to enforce those laws, let's just program a function button on the officer's laptop to allow a notice or ticket be sent to the expired tag and broken tail light criminals. That would save the officers' time for more important duties and put them in less danger of getting hit on the side of the road.

At my last oil change, the guy found a brake light bulb not working. I have no idea how long it had been out, but unless it failed that day, I am sure that one or more officers must have been in a position to see it. But, I'm a white guy, in a white neighborhood driving a Good Ol' Boy truck blasting Jimmy Buffett or Foreigner. I'm not likely to set off anybody's "spider sense."

However, black drivers in black neighborhoods (or especially in white neighborhoods) more often set off officers' "spider sense." The numbers clearly show that a drivers' race greatly affects his or her chance of being stopped by police. That needs to stop. If officer's won't change this habit, we have to take away any incentive for the habit.

I actually had a tech from a federal TLA agency tell me that he once crawled out into the Everglades to cut the tail light wires on a rental box van so the the FHP could have PC to pull over the truck after it was loaded with dope. Seems to me they would have had PC observing it being loaded.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

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OK is months behind in issuing DLs and tags. And 13 YEARS behind issuing Real ID. OK just opened a couple of emergency mega-centers to try and catch up. We renewed our tag by mail as soon as we got the notice, it was due at the end of June and we just received it 9-4. A lot of states are in the same situation.
The state's first driver's license 'megacenter' open in Oklahoma City
In another current thread I noticed that my taxes were high.
However, I can get a new plate or tabs in ten minutes.
 

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BUT, say one makes your spider sense tingle


ie - driven by a Black guy. That's been the problem - cops disproportionally targeting Blacks for this sort of crap. If they hadn't been doing this for decades, then we wouldn't need these new laws.
What a whack take. 50% of all violent crime is committed by 13% of the population. Thats staggering numbers for one ethnic group. Is it culture? Is it race? I have no idea but those are the statistics. Something is really wrong and that is why black people have more interactions with police than any other race. All this law will do is encourage people to break more laws and commit more crime. And you know what the irony of all these policies is?
It makes life for law abiding black folks more dangerous and more likely to be victims of crimes. This is bad news all around. Glad I live in a place where we support law enforcement. BTW our crime rate is extremely low and we all have guns and support the police. Who would have thunk it?! I think you should move to Chicago , Southside especially will have almost no police presence and all the diversity you crave. Let me know how that works out.😑
 

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Pisticus Veritas
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WELL, CONTRARY to some folks beliefs the cops do not do knee jerk reaction quite like that.
OK, someone stole your plate and used it in a robbery.
what are the odds that they put the plate on the exact same make and model veh that it came from?
so, they do the robbery, when the picture is taken it will also have the getaway car in it. Will the paints match up?
There is along with it a description of both the car and the robber(s)
the plate is run.
for the sake of argument, the bank robbers are described as 2- 5'8" white males looking to be in their 20s.

The plate is run, it comes back to a different blue chevy with your name attached to it.
they run your name.. you are a male, with NO criminal history, and the description definitely does not fit the robbers. BUT, even if it did... your history does not fit. there are very few virgin bank robbers. That is stepping up to the big leagues and you work your way up to that.
SO, just on the chance you are one of the BGs you will come under surveillance Drive by looking for the vehicle, registered there. It is there with no plate. You go to work you will be followed. While you are at work someone will inquire of your whereabouts at work during the time of the robbery IF you were at work, then you could not be robbing the bank.
NOW, someone is definitely going to knock on your door and ask you about the car in your drive with no plate on it. (you would be amazed at how many folks never notice the plate is gone.)

BUT, I will admit the visit will be different if you fit the description, are a known RA guy with several convictions and all around dirtbag. and the vehicle is still sitting in your drive with the plate on it.
I had a license plate stolen off of my black Silverado when I lived in Colorado. I didn't notice it until a cop stopped me while I was driving to work. Of course, he stopped me because I didn't have my plate. Anyway, he saw that I had the plate on the front of the truck so agreed with me that the rear plate was stolen.

Anyway, he immediately reported the stolen plate so that if it was used in a crime I wouldn't be charged with the crime. He also wrote out a note with a case number on it so that if I got stopped again the next cop wouldn't harass me or waste time investigating.

When I got my new plates, I installed them with tamper resistant hardware so they would be much harder to steal. This incident was one of the "last straws" that caused me to move from Commy Colorado (Denver area).
 

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Pisticus Veritas
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In another current thread I noticed that my taxes were high.
However, I can get a new plate or tabs in ten minutes.
I ordered my Utah tags online in the final week of August. Got them sent to me in the first or second week of September. Lightening fast!!
 

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What a whack take. 50% of all violent crime is committed by 13% of the population. Thats staggering numbers for one ethnic group. Is it culture? Is it race? I have no idea but those are the statistics. Something is really wrong and that is why black people have more interactions with police than any other race. All this law will do is encourage people to break more laws and commit more crime. And you know what the irony of all these policies is?
It makes life for law abiding black folks more dangerous and more likely to be victims of crimes. This is bad news all around. Glad I live in a place where we support law enforcement. BTW our crime rate is extremely low and we all have guns and support the police. Who would have thunk it?! I think you should move to Chicago , Southside especially will have almost no police presence and all the diversity you crave. Let me know how that works out.😑
How about 1% of the Poplulation
1%

Bureau of Justice Statistics
Homicide trends in the United States
Homicide Trends
 

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Premium Member
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This is just part of what is on that page

If Whites in this country actually DO commit murder at a rate MUCH ,MUCH higher than their genetic brethren in Ireland or Denmark or Norway, then WHY? The mere presence of BLACKS?

However, I don't believe this is true, as there are 3,916 blacks in North Dakota, and their presence there wasn't enough to raise ND's homicide rate much higher than 0.2 (although if these 3,916 blacks are between the age of 14-24 and commit homicide at the national average of 1 per 1,000 blacks, then they alone would have killed 3-4 people).

The following is based on the assumption (which may be faulty) that the presence of blacks doesn't raise the homicide rate of Whites, but that a large concentration of blacks causes an unusually large spate of genocide of their own kind, plus a significant spill over to other races.

When Washington's homicide rate was 80.6, it was not ALL blacks. It was "only" 80% blacks, 10% Hispanics, 5% Whites, and 5% Asians. So the actual homicide rate of the blacks themselves had to have been higher than 80.6.

0.5 x 5% + 0.5 x 5% + 30 x 10% + X x 80% = 80.6

2.5 + 2.5 + 3 + .8X = 80.6

.8X = 72.6

X = 90.75

So the ACTUAL homicide rate amongst blacks when they're concentrated together like they are in DC and Gary and Detroit and New Orleans is 90.7 (or at least this is what it was in DC).

BUT--let's look at New Orleans, whose homicide rate at 85.8 in 1994 was even HIGHER than DC, yet the percentage of blacks was only 62% (and 4% Hispanic, 2% Asian, and 38% White).

0.5 x 38% + 0.5 x 2% + 30 x 4% + X x 62% = 85.8

0.19 + 0.01 + 1.2 + .62X = 85.8

.62X = 84.4

X = 136.1

SO, in New Orleans, blacks actually committed homicide at a rate of 136.1, almost 50% greater than in DC, making DC blacks seem quite tame by comparison.

The $64,000 question is: for what reason do you believe blacks in New Orleans are 50% more violent than those in DC, who're 18 TIMES more violent than blacks in Mozambique, who're 10 TIMES more violent than Saudi Arabians, who're TWICE as violent as North Dakotans, who're TWICE as violent as Singaporeans?

Whites?
 

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How about this Fact From the same 1% Link

EACH NEW GUN CONTROL LAW KILLED 25 AMERICANS

The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the homicide rate between 1957, before the very first gun control law was ever conceived of, was 4 per 100,000 population, and that by 1991, following the passage of more than 22,000 ill-conceived gun control laws, it had almost tripled, to 9.8. This represents a 3.1 fold increase in the number of homicides, from 8,060 to24,700, and other BJS sources report that the rate in 1980 was 10.7, or 2.7 times higher than the pre-gun-control rate. The US Statistical Abstract reports the rate for men between the ages of 25 and 44 to be 21.7 (Table 130), for black males between 15 to 24 to be 157.6 (Table 131), and for New York and Washington, DC, for all races and ages, to be 11.3 and 61.4, respectively (Table 132). These are all record high homicide rates, with the average in 1991 being 9 times higher than the US rate in 1903, 2.5 times higher than the world average, ten times higher than the current rates in Denmark, Hong Kong, Israel, Ireland, or Poland, and 20 times higher than Cyprus, England/Wales, the Slovak Republic, and Singapore.

Had the downward trend in the US which had begun in 1933 merely continued, rather than suddenly reversing in 1960 and almost tripling by 1991, the homicide rate in the US in 2000 would have been lower than 1.4, equivalent to China, much lower than France, but still 2-3 times higher than England. This simple reversal of an encouraging long term trend is responsible for an extra 550,000 homicides in the US, and it's the gun lobbyists who are the prime murder suspects.
 

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M.R. Ducks
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You cannot have it both ways, people WANT police protection against them being pillaged by the animals, but then you cannot complain when the police actually do what the taxpayers are paying them to do, that is being policemen.
We don't need protection from the "animals" driving around with expired tags. So, if you see that, let's just send the driver a notice. If you suspect the driver of a particular car has committed a particular crime... stop him regardless of the status of his tags or bulbs and be prepared to say why you suspected him.

As a taxpayer, I don't want to pay a police officer to drive around town all day looking for faulty tail lights on the outside chance that the dude behind the wheel has a body in the trunk. I wonder how many tail light checks result in solving serious crimes and how many just find $20 worth of weed?
 

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Storyteller
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Sometimes a traffic stop isn't always just a traffic stop...
this was 5 days ago.

There are hundreds of these on UTOOB.

Bottom line, violent crime is up in some areas, not everywhere....
 

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Born 120 years too late.
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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
As a taxpayer, I don't want to pay a police officer to drive around town all day looking for faulty tail lights on the outside chance that the dude behind the wheel has a body in the trunk. I wonder how many tail light checks result in solving serious crimes ...?
THE ANSWER.is ....A LOT
Some of the officers with the highest stats for felony arrests are the guys who shake cars stopped for moving violations.
If a wanted felon is driving a car with a defective tail light, do you think a mail notice will change his ways? When the officer makes contact he finds the driver is a wanted felon and he is off the street.

If the driver is suspended for whatever reason, do you think it is OK for him to keep on driving ?
SO, bad tail light, driver is suspended, at that stage you impound him and the car. The car is inventoried and anything found of a criminal nature is OK to use because you do not need a warrant to search a car for inventory purposes. SO, the suspended driver is sitting on a kilo of cocaine. So that "not worth it traffic stop" has gotten a vehicle off the street that is not legal to be on the street, it has taken a driver who is illegally driving and you have now also an arrest for possession with intent to deliver cocaine... all from a busted tail light. What a waste of the officers time and taxpayers money. And I know a hundred + of officers who had this happen in some form or fashion myself included.
I stopped a guy one night to tell him his muffler was dragging and before the stop was over with I have 5lbs of weed, a couple thousand $$$ in cash and a wanted felon from Fla in custody.
YES..traffic stops solve a lot of crimes.

FYI... any weed under an oz we routinely shook out on the street because it was not worth the time or effort to go through the process. We usually didn't get too interested in weed until we got to at least half a pound in separate baggies, showing intent to deliver.

SOMETIMES, you see a possible that fits a description of a wanted car fresh from a crime but you do not have enough info yet...
so you stop the car , say it is wanted in connection with a burglary, you approach the car, the people are nervous because they just left a crime scene, so I tell them their car fits a description of a car that was seen leaving a double shooting. Now, they know they didn't shoot anyone. They relax while I explain to them I really don't think they are the guys but I am waiting for more info. "OK whatever you say officer." they are now my friends. They are chilling and joking. I finally get the rest of the info and have the responding officers with the info come take a look. They take a look and bag them and find the loot in the trunk during inventory search.
I had no reason to stop them other than they were close to the description. Since I had no traffic violation to stop them for, and I really didn't know if they did the crime or not, was I to just let them drive away? Other than blue chevy with 3 guys in it is that enough to stop someone when there are hundreds of blue chevys out there with people in them?

You decide, should I have let them drive away???
 

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M.R. Ducks
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THE ANSWER.is ....A LOT
Some of the officers with the highest stats for felony arrests are the guys who shake cars stopped for moving violations.
So I looked it up. Nationally, 3% of traffic stops lead to vehicles being searched. 1 out of 5 of those searches turns up any kind of illegality. I don't know haw many of that 0.6% of the drivers in whose car something illegal is found were dangerous felons... but I bet it's small. With a success rate of less than one percent, making "spider sense traffic stops" doesn't seem like an efficient way to find crooks.

If a wanted felon is driving a car with a defective tail light, do you think a mail notice will change his ways?
Nope... but the chances are very low that the guy you stop with a defective tail light is a wanted felon.

If the driver is suspended for whatever reason, do you think it is OK for him to keep on driving ?
Again... the chances are low that the guy you stop with a defective tail light is driving with a suspended license.

So that "not worth it traffic stop" has gotten a vehicle off the street that is not legal to be on the street, it has taken a driver who is illegally driving and you have now also an arrest for possession with intent to deliver cocaine... all from a busted tail light. What a waste of the officers time and taxpayers money.
It kind of is a waste, because statistically officers stop 166 drivers for every one for which they find something illegal. The chances of finding a cocaine mule are even lower.

And I know a hundred + of officers who had this happen in some form or fashion myself included.
I stopped a guy one night to tell him his muffler was dragging and before the stop was over with I have 5lbs of weed, a couple thousand $$$ in cash and a wanted felon from Fla in custody.
YES..traffic stops solve a lot of crimes.
I don't know how long you have been on the police force, but if this technique has resulted in your catching ONE wanted felon, that's not a very good success rate.

I had no reason to stop them other than they were close to the description. Since I had no traffic violation to stop them for, and I really didn't know if they did the crime or not, was I to just let them drive away? Other than blue chevy with 3 guys in it is that enough to stop someone when there are hundreds of blue chevys out there with people in them?

You decide, should I have let them drive away???
No... three guys who match the description of three guys who just committed a crime seen driving a car that matches the description of the getaway car near the scene of the crime is plenty of probable cause for a stop. See, you didn't need the blown tail light bulb.
 
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