[Basic Human Unit]

Once a policy is posted, it is past discussion.
While many things are put to a vote by the congregation, this one was not.

Try to remember this is a world-wide organization, covering many different cultures - many things North Americans find as normal are completely alien to many others.

Religion. The worldwide organization is a religion. And everything that implies; both good and bad.

And for the record, while this non-denominational Christian has a great deal of disdain for organized religion of all types, I have considerably less so for the LDS. If I were to list the ten religious organizations I was the least 'hostile'(which I think is a bit strong) toward, the LDS would definitely be among them.

 

[DKR]

Religion. The worldwide organization is a religion. And everything that implies; both good and bad.

And for the record, while this non-denominational Christian has a great deal of disdain for organized religion of all types, I have considerably less so for the LDS. If I were to list the ten religious organizations I was the least 'hostile'(which I think is a bit strong) toward, the LDS would definitely be among them.

It is a bit more nuanced. There is the Church and there is the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Chris of LDS. Thus, an organization, both headed by the same man - The President.

Traditionally, LDS folks try to avoid being openly obnoxious. Call it a....survival mechanism. Generally works to our advantage. Generally....

 

[Cuteandfuzzybunnies]

For everybody saying the guy may have had PTSD. He was a mechanic. In Iraq. Not sure he saw a lot of combat , but maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Cuteandfuzzybunnies]

View from another church
What does the Church Teach about Tattoos? | Catholic Answers Magazine

What caught me by surprise was this bit.

Sometimes people point to the passage in Leviticus that says, ”Do not . . . put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord” (19:28).
But this verse is not binding upon Christians for the same reason that the verse “nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two kinds of stuff” (Lev. 19:19) is not binding upon Christians. Namely, it is a part of the ceremonial law that was binding upon the Jewish people but not binding upon Christians (except for when it coincides with the moral law).

I'll stop here, just noting different views of folks on tats

It’s also a mistranslation. The prescription in Jewish law is against” cutting yourself for the dead “ which is part of ancestor worship . I have and will get more tattoos. I won’t get one made for a dead person.

 

[HappyinID]

For everybody saying the guy may have had PTSD. He was a mechanic. In Iraq. Not sure he saw a lot of combat , but maybe I’m wrong.

Depends on where he was at, and what he was doing. Can't judge PTSD by MOS.

 

[Cuteandfuzzybunnies]

You are absolutely correct.

And no one in the LDS church is suggesting carrying a gun is bad or violent.
And a LOT of us carry, that's why our present governor signed off on constitutional carry after the last one refused to do so. We have a lot of guys that have military experience, are LEO's, CO's, and avid hunters. We aren't worried about the guns.

But none of the founders had a man that they believed speaks for God tell them to leave their guns outside the church.
If you believe, and are trying to do what God tells you, and you raise your hand to say you support that man who leads the church....well....do you really? If you DON'T do as he has said to do...are you following the Lord? Or just doing what you want, like any non-believer?
Sometimes, you have to exercise a bit of faith.
Like I said earlier, I'd rather see God tomorrow and be right, than see him later and try to explain why I was wrong.

Did the Quakers not carry in church ? They were around at the founding . They are pretty anti gun/ anti self defense even.

 

[ajole]

What's the moral difference between a good guy with a gun taking out that perp and the police who actually did it?

Since uniformed officers are okay to carry in church (not wrong), it appears to me to be more of a liability issue than a moral one. Police are morally right to kill bad guys to save lives but the average Joe is not? And then there is war. Did the pilots who flew the Dresden bombing missions go to hell?

Have you ever watched the movie "Saints and Soldiers"? Corporal Nathan 'Deacon' Greer is haunted by the ghosts of the people he accidentally killed with a grenade. I won't spoil it if you haven't seen it.

It’s not a morality thing. The Church has no problems with people standing up against evil, in civilian life, or in war. I went to BYU, I’m on a plaque there, along with every other student that got called up and went to Desert Storm. There are plaques for every US military action since Vietnam.
Also, there’s a NG unit, the triple deuce, 222nd Field Arty, based out of Cedar City, they went to Korea, fought at Gapyeong as the 213th, got down to hand to hand. 300 dead, 800 captured. All North Korean, none of the Utah guys died. Seriously, morality isn’t the reason.

So anyway, I agree that liability probably has a part in the decision.
And yes, that movie and the other after it are solid flicks.👍

Ah, yes, that word "policy" again, no doubt fully vetted by the tassel loafered church legal and insurance department.

Probably. Does that change anything? Nope.

 

[ajole]

For everybody saying the guy may have had PTSD. He was a mechanic. In Iraq. Not sure he saw a lot of combat , but maybe I’m wrong.

I served with a guy that was “just a boat driver” in the Navy, in Vietnam. He got out of the Navy, went Army, became our Armorer. He was 40, looked like he was 65. His wife looked like his daughter. Never saw combat. But he saw lots of casualties, driving boatloads of bodies to and from ships.

Did the Quakers not carry in church ? They were around at the founding . They are pretty anti gun/ anti self defense even.

Correct. They were pacifists.

 

[Uglyman]

Thomas Jacob Sanford, a 40-year-old resident of Burton, Michigan, was identified as the gunman. He had a military background and was known locally for his distinctive pickup truck with American flags and was a staunch supporter of Donald Trump. It is said, he hated Mormons, but that's just speculation as of now.

 

[Uglyman]

You know, I thought it weird this wasn't posted yet. I was looking in the wrong section.

 

[DKR]

Thomas Jacob Sanford, a 40-year-old resident of Burton, Michigan, was identified as the gunman. He had a military background and was known locally for his distinctive pickup truck with American flags and was a staunch supporter of Donald Trump. It is said, he hated Mormons, but that's just speculation as of now.

Might be a good idea for you to read posts #88 &89 above. Dude was pretty vehement anti- LDS.

The fact that he attacked a Church and killed people - That says 'hate' in my book.

 

[Uglyman]

Might be a good idea for you to read posts #88 &89 above. Dude was pretty vehement anti- LDS.

The fact that he attacked a Church and killed people - That says 'hate' in my book.

Oh yes, I'm going to work my way through the thread. I didn't realize there was one.

 

[DKR]

More breadcrumbs -
Michigan church shooter was Marine veteran who White House official says "hated people of the Mormon faith" - CBS News
****
Michigan church shooter had past relationship with Mormon woman in Utah and heavily used meth, friends reveal | The Independent

Peter Tersigni told the Times that he knew Sanford for practically his entire life, and described him as his best friend. He said Sanford was a class clown, but deployment to Iraq with the Marines changed him and tuned him into a more serious person upon his return.
It wasn't just the military that changed Sanford. According to Tersigni, a move to Utah and a habit of abusing methamphetamines further transformed his friend.
During his stay in Utah, Sanford reportedly fell in love with a woman who was part of the LDS. It's unclear exactly how involved he and the woman were, but what Tersigni did say is that the relationship ended in a way that left Sanford deeply hurt.
“Mentally [Sanford] was in rough shape," he told the paper.
He said it became very clear to anyone who would listen that Sanford had a problem with the LDS Church.

More as it becomes relevant.

 

[Silver Pie]

LDS Christians might be a special case. Some people; especially other Christians don't consider LDS Christians to be proper Christians. A few even see them as something sinister. After the death of Charlie Kirk, who knows what dots are getting connected in the brains of lunatics?

This has probably already been said, but I saw this article today. The shooter thought they was Mormons were the anti-Christ.

First paragraph:

When Burton City Council candidate Kris Johns heard that someone shot churchgoers and burned down the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Sept. 28 in nearby Grand Blanc, he said not once did he think it was the man he spoke to while canvassing less than a week prior who went on a tirade against the church and described Mormons as "the antichrist."

Then he saw a photo and knew it was the same man.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo.../29/thomas-jacob-sanford-michigan-shooting-suspect-anti-lds-tirade/86415139007/


I can guaranteed you that the "Mormons" are not anti-Christ. Jesus has always been a big part of it. In fact, when I was baptized at age 8, it was because of my love for Jesus (because I was afraid of water).

 

[Silver Pie]

For non-members that may not understand the full impact of this last weekend -

The first blow was the loss of a major and quite beloved leader of the Church; President Russel M. Nelson...
KSL has a nice tribute page online (see link below) and much of this may also be found online as a streaming video. (see KSL link set)

'A bold, visionary leader': President Russell M. Nelson remembered for life of service | KSL.com

The second blow - a cowardly attack on on unarmed Church congregation as they sat in a Sacrament meeting, peacefully worshiping / following their own path to salvation. This, while trying to deal with the shocking loss of the Prophet just the night before... The death of children just ramps up the emotions and returns horrible memories of times past...
This, not long after the assassination of another very public Christian figure.

I fear this set of events may become a major inflection point in the societal contract we often talk about here on this board.
What may come out of all of this has yet to be seen, and I am reminded of this Scripture:
View attachment 624967
The funeral date for Elder Nelson has not been announced. Given that the General Conference will be next weekend, as this gathering is normally the venue to announce a new Prophet, the funeral will be quite soon, I suppose.

Yeah, that's a big double whammy. I've heard people wondering if the funeral will take place after conference because of how close conference is.

 

[Silver Pie]

I am sure many wards will consider having local LEO volunteer or on hire for security duty during services.

I will tell you, if I was going to church in that ward building in Michigan, I would never ever again enter an LDS Church building, and probably no other denomination's building either - out of fear and terror.

 

[Basic Human Unit]

This has probably already been said, but I saw this article today. The shooter thought they was the anti-Christ.

First paragraph:
Then he saw a photo and knew it was the same man.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo.../29/thomas-jacob-sanford-michigan-shooting-suspect-anti-lds-tirade/86415139007/


I can guaranteed you that the "Mormons" are not anti-Christ. Jesus has always been a big part of it. In fact, when I was baptized at age 8, it was because of my love for Jesus (because I was afraid of water).

I'm aware. LDS beliefs might be a little weird, but they are far from satanic.

 

[comdot]

I will tell you, if I was going to church in that ward building in Michigan, I would never ever again enter an LDS Church building, and probably no other denomination's building either - out of fear and terror.

Wrong place for a religious discussion, but if that is the case, who wins?

 

[Silver Pie]

Not a thread derail, but the LDS church has a history, as they say - with many claiming to be the one church.
List of denominations in the Latter Day Saint movement - Wikipedia

I normally eschew Wiki as a point source, but this specific Wiki entry does a good job of showing all the multitude of splinter groups (and major figures) that popped up as a result of the brutal murder of J Smith.

Also, the history of the settlement of the western US is intertwined with the LDS church as well.

I'll stop here, a real look at this very long history is likely best served to be discussed in the 'Religion' section.
My comment here is merely intended as a bookmark to point to the wiki article - and thus help folks to try and understand just how convoluted this situation is, in reality.

True. Joseph Smith's movement spawned several who claim they descended from him, and those "daughters" had people who split from them over and over again. There are a whole lot of churches claiming Joseph Smith as their founder. The LDS Church is the biggest and probably wealthiest now. I'm guessing the Church of Christ (I think that's what they renamed themselves), formerly RLDS is probably next. In infamy, FLDS while Jeffs was in control is probably the one with the most notoriety.

But when people hear LDS or Mormon, they usually think of the denomination based in Salt Lake City, Utah.

 

[Silver Pie]

This is part of my theory.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2025/09/29/thomas-jacob-sanford-michigan-shooting-suspect-anti-lds-tirade/86415139007/

"He said Sanford (the shooter) began asking him open-ended questions about Mormonism, first asking how Johns (the person running for city council) felt about the religion. And the more questions Sanford asked on the topic, the more pointed they became, Johns said. He said Sanford asked him about the Mormon bible, the role Jesus plays in the religion, the history of the LDS church and Joseph Smith Jr., the founder of Mormonism and the LDS movement."​

​

But Johns said everything Sanford asked him about Mormonism led to Sanford declaring the religion as "the antichrist.""​

​

The next part of my theory is how Charlie Kirk's murderer was raised in the Church, his family still is and how that might have been the last straw for him and how killing Mormons would be his revenge against "the antichrist".

Social media is a cesspool of hate and plenty of it has been directed at the LDS Church since Kirk's assassination.

Michigan Church shooter told Burton council candidate that Mormons are the anti-Christ - mlive.com

"After a few minutes of introductions, Johns said, Sanford steered the conversation directly to the Mormon church and did not turn back, repeatedly telling him that “the Mormons are the anti-Christ.”

“Religion is not a (regular) topic on the doorstep,” Johns said of the encounter, which began with Sanford acting outgoing -- almost jovial -- before his conversation became “unhinged” about the church.

“He asked me what (I knew) about Mormons,” said Johns, who said he’s been interviewed about the encounter by Michigan State Police and the FBI.

White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt said on Monday, Sept. 29, that investigators are looking into how Sanford’s feelings about the Latter-day Saints tied into Sunday’s attack.

“From what I understand, based on my conversations with the FBI director, all they know right now is this was an individual who hated people of the Mormon faith,” she said during an interview on Fox News Channel’s “Fox and Friends.”

Johns said Sanford told him members of the church “wanted him to get rid of his tattoos” and talked about the various tenets of the faith, including “sealing,” a process that Mormons believe binds a husband, a wife, and their children to each other for eternity. According to the church website, members are not supposed to tattoo their bodies."

AND

"Johns described Sanford’s comments as unusual and said he was able to follow some of them because he has friends who are members of the Latter-day Saints. It is unclear what Sanford’s involvement was with the Mormon church.

Johns said he was visiting homes in the city where someone in the household had voted in the primary City Council election in August.

The candidate said Sanford’s name wasn’t the one that triggered his visit, but he was outside the home when John’s abruptly pulled over when I noticed the address.

“He engaged with me because he thought something was wrong with my car,” Johns said. “I pulled over quickly, and he was in the driveway ... In this 20-minute conversation, there was no political talk.

“It was entirely based on religion,” he said. “He had an extreme issue with the church.”


Lots of folks out there that are not wrapped very tightly - be careful.

Posted as a second source./

I thought someone would have beat me to it.

Imo, the man had a psychotic break.