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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my reading I came across some old hunting, trapping and fishing charms used by Chippewa Indians a long time ago that I believe might be helpful to those that find themselves in a survivalist setting. This is from lore gathered first hand from native Americans by Ms. Densmorre in the 1890's. I have copied the following passage from the book:

Chippewa Customs by Frances Densmore. 1979 (reprint of 1929 ed.). Minnesota Historical Press. ISBN 0-87351-142-5 text copied from pages 110-111.

(2) Herbs used to attract animals and fish. Hepatica triloba
(hepatica). An informant said that her father used this, together
with other roots, in the following manner: He chopped the roots and
put them in the center of a small fungus which he had scooped out, the
skin of the fungus forming a little bag. This he placed on or near
the traps which he set for fur-bearing animals. His rise to a high
position in the tribe was attributed to his knowledge of this medicine.
'When he was a boy he was very poor and had only one trap.
After a while he was able to buy a second trap. Then an old Miele
told him about this medicine. He used it, and soon was trapping more
successfully than any other man. "Because of this he rose to be head
chief and had credit at any trader's, for they all knew he could
always get enough furs to pay for his goods." This man was Nagan'ab,
chief of the Chippewa at Fond du Lac, Minn.
Cornus alternifolia L. f. (dogwood) : This was used in the following manner
to attract muskrats: A steel trap was set below the water near one of
the muskrat houses and a hazel twig was placed upright in the jaws of
the trap. The twig was usually about 10 inches long and the adjustment
was such that about 1 inch of its length projected above the
water. This portion of the twig was cut into splinters and the
chewed root of the above-named plant , was placed among the splinters.
The muskrats were attracted by the odor, and the
attraction was so strong that if one muskrat was caught in the trap
the others would devour its body in their attempt to reach the
medicine. Only a small amount of the root was required for this purpose.
The plant was also used as a remedy for sore eyes.
Eupatorium perfoliatium L. (boneset) ; Asclepias SY1WJeaL. (com-.
mon milkweed) : The small root fibers of the first plant were chewed
with the root of the second and applied to a whistle used in calling
deer. (See p. 129.)
Aster novae-angliae L. (aster): The root, dried and powdered,
was smoked in a pipe to attract game. The smell of the smoke was
said to be like that of a deer's hoof. It was said that "when the
hunters see a deer track they sit down and smoke this root, then go
a little farther, sit down and smoke again, and so on as they follow
the deer's track. Often the deer will come toward them, sniffing
the air." (See p. 129.)
Arctostaphylos uva-ursi (L.) Spreng. (bearberry): The root of
this plant was used similarly to the preceding. It also had a medicinal
use and was used as a remedy for headache.
Aster puniceus L. (aster): The fine tendrils of this root as found
in the autumn were smoked in a pipe with tobacco to attract game.
Acorus calamus L. (calamus); Aralia nudicaulis L. (wild sarsaparilla)
: The roots of these plants were dried, grated very fine, and
a decoction made of the two. This was sprinkled on fish nets and
allowed to dry before the nets were put in the water. The amount
of powdered roots needed for one application was less than half
teaspoonful. Both plants had several medicinal uses; among these
uses the former was considered a remedy for" humor in the blood,"
and the latter for sore throat and toothache. (See p. 125.)

While these were described as charms, it seems probable that they were used because they actually worked and hence were adopted for generations. I welcome any comments from those who have heard of similar things. Such collected information would be valuable and might help save lives during a possible SHTF.
Woodchuck
 

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as a Lac Courte O'reilles tribal member (Chippewa/Ojibwa), I prefer Tinks doe in heat, Knight & Hale's rattle bag, and Primo's calls. along with Rapala's and Mister twisters for fishing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
as a Lac Courte O'reilles tribal member (Chippewa/Ojibwa), I prefer Tinks doe in heat, Knight & Hale's rattle bag, and Primo's calls. along with Rapala's and Mister twisters for fishing.
LOL, I suspect you are right. Modern technology marches on. But when you run out of those things after SHTF, it may be hard to reorder them. Thanks for responding. BTW, I grew up in MN and a small part of me is still there, and that's why I posted this.
 

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Eupatorium perfoliatium L. (boneset) ; Asclepias SY1WJeaL. (com-.
mon milkweed) : The small root fibers of the first plant were chewed
with the root of the second and applied to a whistle used in calling
deer. (See p. 129.)
/boggle
I try and shy away from chewing on toxic plants. If it will kill my horse I'm sure not putting it in my mouth.

Toxic principle.
The primary toxic principle, galitoxin, is of the resinoid class. Galitoxin is found in all vegetative parts of the plant. In addition, a group of toxicants known as cardenolides may be responsible for digitalis-like signs that cause or contribute to death. In general, it appears that the broad-leaved species produce cardiotoxic and GI effects while the narrow-leaved species are more commonly neurotoxic.

Toxicity.
Dosages of whorled milkweed as low as 0.1 % - 0.5% of the animal's body weight may cause toxicosis and, possibly, death. Cattle, sheep and horses are most susceptible. Toxicity is not lost when the plant is dried. Therefore, contaminated hay is potentially toxic.

Diagnosis
Clinical signs include profuse salivation, incoordination, violent seizures, bloating in ruminants and colic in horses. Early signs are followed by bradycardia or tachycardia, arrhythmias, hypotension and hypothermia. Death may occur from 1-3 days after ingestion of the milkweed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
/boggle
I try and shy away from chewing on toxic plants. If it will kill my horse I'm sure not putting it in my mouth.
Common milkweed is a different plant from whorled milkweed. Some regard the tender young leaves of common milkweed as edible. The young leaves and shoots of otherwise toxic plants are sometimes edible (eg. pokeweed). As a veterinarian, I can assure you that horses and cows are different creatures than people, and 0.1-0.5% of body weight is a fair amount of greens to eat at one time.

The leaves and shoots of boneset is a well-known treatment for colds, flu and fevers. I'm not sure about the toxicity of the roots of either plant, but maybe they just spit them out after chewing, and didn't swallow. :)
 

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The info I posted applies to
MILKWEED - Asclepias species

Common milkweed is (Asclepias syriaca) which is still part of the same species of milkweeds.

Milkweed species as a group are known to contain cardiac glycosides that are poisonous to humans and livestock, as well as other substances that may account for their medicinal effect. Resinoids, glycosides, and a small amount of alkaloids are present in all parts of the plant. Symptoms of poisoning by the cardiac glycosides include dullness, weakness, bloating, inability to stand or walk, high body temperature, rapid and weak pulse, difficulty breathing, dilated pupils, spasms, and coma.
I have also read of the Cherokee using it for medicinal purposes but I would be reluctant to put the info out there as safe without letting people know the risks involved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The info I posted applies to
MILKWEED - Asclepias species

Common milkweed is (Asclepias syriaca) which is still part of the same species of milkweeds.



I have also read of the Cherokee using it for medicinal purposes but I would be reluctant to put the info out there as safe without letting people know the risks involved.
I did not advocate anything as safe. I merely presented a documented historical report in hopes it would provide food for thought. You on the other hand repeatedly present copies of authoritative-sounding excerpts, but do not bother to document your source. If you are the authority you cite, please present your qualifications.
 

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I did not advocate anything as safe. I merely presented a documented historical report in hopes it would provide food for thought. You on the other hand repeatedly present copies of authoritative-sounding excerpts, but do not bother to document your source. If you are the authority you cite, please present your qualifications.
Food for thought or food that can kill you? Which is it?
You post a source citing the chewing of milkweed root and then don't want to take any responsibility for it?

Sources?
Google "MILKWEED - Asclepias species" and take your pick of a hundred or so listing the toxicity of the milkweed family. :eek:

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/poison/plants/ppmilkw.htm

The primary toxic principle, galitoxin, is of the resinoid class. Galitoxin is found in all vegetative parts of the plant. In addition, a group of toxicants known as cardenolides may be responsible for digitalis-like signs that cause or contribute to death. In general, it appears that the broad-leaved species produce cardiotoxic and GI effects while the narrow-leaved species are more commonly neurotoxic.
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/common_milkweed.htm
Common Milkweed is considered by many to be a pesky garden weed. Others, however, value it as a great attractor of wildlife, especially butterflies. It is poisonous to humans, so do not eat it. The fluffy seeds of milkweed are sometimes used as insulation or stuffing for life jackets.

http://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/cs_assy.pdf
Milkweed species as a group are known to contain cardiac glycosides that are poisonous to humans and livestock, as well as other substances that may account for their medicinal effect. Resinoids, glycosides, and a small amount of alkaloids are present in all parts of the plant. Symptoms of poisoning by the cardiac glycosides include dullness, weakness, bloating, inability to stand or walk, high body temperature, rapid and weak pulse, difficulty breathing, dilated pupils, spasms, and coma.

Any of those work for you?

Im pretty much astounded to hear a veterinarian posting info here about chewing and smoking milkweed. Are you a small animal vet? Have you ever seen a ruminant with milkweed poisoning? I bet if you had you would be so hot to trot on it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Food for thought or food that can kill you? Which is it?
You post a source citing the chewing of milkweed root and then don't want to take any responsibility for it?

Sources?
Google "MILKWEED - Asclepias species" and take your pick of a hundred or so listing the toxicity of the milkweed family. :eek:

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/poison/plants/ppmilkw.htm

The primary toxic principle, galitoxin, is of the resinoid class. Galitoxin is found in all vegetative parts of the plant. In addition, a group of toxicants known as cardenolides may be responsible for digitalis-like signs that cause or contribute to death. In general, it appears that the broad-leaved species produce cardiotoxic and GI effects while the narrow-leaved species are more commonly neurotoxic.
http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/common_milkweed.htm
Common Milkweed is considered by many to be a pesky garden weed. Others, however, value it as a great attractor of wildlife, especially butterflies. It is poisonous to humans, so do not eat it. The fluffy seeds of milkweed are sometimes used as insulation or stuffing for life jackets.

http://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/cs_assy.pdf
Milkweed species as a group are known to contain cardiac glycosides that are poisonous to humans and livestock, as well as other substances that may account for their medicinal effect. Resinoids, glycosides, and a small amount of alkaloids are present in all parts of the plant. Symptoms of poisoning by the cardiac glycosides include dullness, weakness, bloating, inability to stand or walk, high body temperature, rapid and weak pulse, difficulty breathing, dilated pupils, spasms, and coma.

Any of those work for you?

Im pretty much astounded to hear a veterinarian posting info here about chewing and smoking milkweed. Are you a small animal vet? Have you ever seen a ruminant with milkweed poisoning? I bet if you had you would be so hot to trot on it.
This forum would be non-existant if everyone, including you, took responsibility for everything posted or reported. I reported what a group of native americans did to attract game over the thousands of years that they occupied this land before Colorado Ranchers happened on the scene. They would not have survived long enough to have their land taken away if the toxicity had been that overt. Since I have some Chippewa blood flowing in my veins, I take great pride in their accomplishments, which were substantial, considering what it must have taken to figure out what I reported. I did not advocate following their example, but if one is on the verge of starving to death, it might be wise to risk a little toxicity using ancient knowledge.

For your information, I am a toxicologic pathologist with 40+ years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry. I have publications/book chapters dealing with toxicity, and I am a board certified veterinary pathologist. I know the effects of toxic agents on tissues. I have even worked with compounds that were glycoside analogs. I took courses on poisonous weeds in veterinary school.

In addition to that I grew up in Northern Minnesota and have spent much time there in the bush hunting and hiking so I know the country. In addition, I have about 20 years of raising livestock on two farms....cattle, sheep, goats and pigs.

Why don't you impress me with some more citations.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I checked one of my large animal medicine textbooks (Veterinary Medicine, Blood and Henderson, 2nd ed.) and whorled milkweed (Asclepias verticillata) is listed as a poisonous plant for livestock. Common milkweed is not mentioned. As I remember, one of the common problems associated with plant toxicity is overgrazing a pasture. Apparently what sometimes happens is when the animals get hungry, they will eat plants that they would otherwise avoid. Many of the plants have a bitter or unpalatable taste and cattle or sheep will not ordinarily eat them except in dire circumstances. One can often see such plants sticking up untouched in a closely grazed pasture.
 

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This forum would be non-existant if everyone, including you, took responsibility for everything posted or reported. I reported what a group of native americans did to attract game over the thousands of years that they occupied this land before Colorado Ranchers happened on the scene. They would not have survived long enough to have their land taken away if the toxicity had been that overt. Since I have some Chippewa blood flowing in my veins, I take great pride in their accomplishments, which were substantial, considering what it must have taken to figure out what I reported. I did not advocate following their example, but if one is on the verge of starving to death, it might be wise to risk a little toxicity using ancient knowledge.
Or you could actually search for many of the safe to eat plants instead?

For your information, I am a toxicologic pathologist with 40+ years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry. I have publications/book chapters dealing with toxicity, and I am a board certified veterinary pathologist. I know the effects of toxic agents on tissues. I have even worked with compounds that were glycoside analogs. I took courses on poisonous weeds in veterinary school.
Which makes it even more /boggle that you take this stance on milkweed.
You might want to double check that chapter you wrote on milkweed.:taped:

In addition to that I grew up in Northern Minnesota and have spent much time there in the bush hunting and hiking so I know the country. In addition, I have about 20 years of raising livestock on two farms....cattle, sheep, goats and pigs.

Why don't you impress me with some more citations.:)
You asked for the citations, remember?

You on the other hand repeatedly present copies of authoritative-sounding excerpts, but do not bother to document your source. If you are the authority you cite, please present your qualifications.
Posting Indian remedies and herb lore here without proper instruction is dangerous. Your first post listed chewing the root of milkweed.

Asclepias SY1WJeaL. (com-.
mon milkweed) : The small root fibers of the first plant were chewed
with the root of the second and applied to a whistle used in calling
deer. (See p. 129.)
Which is dangerous and stupid.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go on a milkweed salad diet for a month?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Since I have been repeately attacked for sponsoring the ingestion of milkweed (which I did not), I see the need to further defend myself. ALL SPECIES OF MILKWEED ARE NOT THE SAME. I might also add that Asclepias syrica and Asclepias verticillata are NOT the same species as has been stated by Colorado Rancher, but they are different species of the same genus. That is not to say however, that many species of milkweed are not toxic, but at least some are.

The book The Forager's Harvest, A Guide to Identifying and Preparing Edible Wild Plants by Samuel Thayer (ISBN 979-0-9766266-0-2) has about 10 pages (pp290-305) devoted to the foraging and preparation of common milkweed. Here is what the author states at the beginning:

"I am amazed that, as much attention as milkweed has received as a fiber crop and a butterfly planting, so little has been said about its use as food. Ethnographic records show that common milkweed was eaten as a vegetable by tribes throughout its range, and often it was of great importance. It provides edible shoots (like asparagus), flower buds clusters (like broccoli) and immature pods (like okra). The soft silk inside the imature posds is a unique food and the flowers are also edible. Mlkweed conveniently provides one or more edible parts from late spring until late summer, making it one of the most useful wild edibles to learn."

Thayer goes on to state that he is specifically referring to common milkweed (Asclepias syriaca) and this does not apply to other milkweeds. He states that Euell Gibbons also talked about the edibility of common milkweed in his book Stalking the Wild Asparagus.

The moral of the story, I would like to point out, is that one should not over-generalize and lump everything together when it comes to plant families.
 

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So your stance is the University of Pennsylvania is wrong when they say that the Asclepias species of Milkweed is toxic and listed as a poisonous plant.

Or the United States Dept of Agriculture? They must be wrong when they state "Milkweed species as a group are known to contain cardiac glycosides that are poisonous to humans and livestock."

Just so everyone is clear Samuel Thayer that is quoted by woodchuck has zero qualifications beyond camping and eating plants in the wild. He isnt a plant biologist or a range scientists. You can read about him at the link below.

http://foragersharvest.com/about/

In closing you are still putting out bad info on milkweed woodchuck. Your throwing it out there as an edible plant without including any of the precautions or preparation techniques your indian ancestors might have used.

That is dangerous to do when little joe boyscout reads your post, walks out his front door and starts munching on milkweed leaves. All because some guy on the internet said it was safe.......
 
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