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Independent Librarian
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Discussion Starter #1
Evaluating a local "Survival Group". They have some pretty strict requirements for gear, which for the most part doesn't allow me to use any of my current gear at all. Apparrently I have to have MultiCam BDU's. ATM I have Forest/Desert 4-Color BDU's (The former for summer, the latter for winter. May sound weird but desert blends in better in the winter here.) and my gear alot of which is black because of navy uniform requirements (must be black or blue unless otherwise specified) is also completely out the window.

So I am iffy on dealing with these people in the first place but here is their carry requirements. Tell me what you guys think. I'm no grunt and really in no position to critique this, but as far as kit it seems like some serious overkill and in terms of first aid a bit slim.

This is pasted directly from one of their documents.

1st Line Gear:

Compass (Silva Ranger Type or Lensatic)
Map of AO (factory folds, laminated, no additional marking - so if you lose it, it does not TOTALLY compromise the mission)
Small Red LED flashlight (the Micro lights work for this - this is to read the map with at night)
Riggers Belt
Watch (waterproof)
Swiss Army Knife/Multitool
BFK on Drop Sheath
Strong Side Drop Holster
Side Arm
1 Spare Mag for Side Arm
Water holder (small canteen - I use a collaspable 'Platypus' 1 liter container)

Small First Aid Kit
 Band Aids
 Small Tube of Neosporin
 Couple Asprins/Motrin
 Compress/Tampons
Small Survival Kit
 Fish Hooks
 Fishing line
 Sinkers
 Fire starter (flint/steel/etc.)
 Packets of Top Ramen Mix WITHOUT NOODLES
 Snare Making Material (64 gauge brass wire)"
 Empty film canister full of dryer lint
 Water Purification Tabs
550 cord on Boonie Hat (25')
Blast Match
Flight Gloves
'Do Rag' (USGI Triangular OD Bandage worn 'bandit style' around neck)

TOTAL WEIGHT OF 1st LINE GEAR IS 9 POUNDS!ALL of this stuff is carried on YOU. In your pockets, on your belt, etc. NOT IN YOUR BVE/LBV or RUCK!!
Remember to 'dummy cord' everything to your body, so when you need it, it is still there (not 6 miles back for the enemy to find and use).
With these items you can literally survive to fight another day. Without them, your survival odds just turned against you.










2nd Line Gear is your 'FIGHTING GEAR':

LBV
Fighting Rifle
 Bushmaster M4gery
 Bushmaster Dissapator
 AKM
 FN-FAL
Magazines
 AR - 12 30 round mags
 FN - 8 20 round mags
 AK - 8 30 rounds mags
1 20 round mag of tracer (5.56mm when carrying Bushmaster)
GPS
Emergency Flares
Smoke Generator - White
Bug Repellent
Carabiner
20' of 1" OD nylon tubing (for expedient rappel harness)
(Camo Pack (for face, neck and hands/arms)
FRS communication device
AA Batteries
 On a 'per day basis'
 2 for the GPS
 6 for the FRS
 2 for PVS-14
CR-1/3N Battery

  •  On a 'per week basis'
     1 for Aimpoint
    Weapon Cleaning Gear
     Rod/Pull Through
     Bore Brush
     Chamber Brush
     Patches
     CLP
    Day/Night Flare
    Water Bladder (Platypus Hoser 3 Liter)
    Water Purification Tabs
    550 Cord - 20 feet
    OPTIONAL - Binos
    Hearing Protection
    Red Lense Flashlight (Mini-Mag or my personal favorite the plycarbonite Pelican AA model, weighs about 1/2 what the Mini-Mag does)
    And in the Butt Pack:
    Poncho Liner - Woodland Camo USGI
    Poncho - Woodland Camo USGI
    Stripped MRE's (approx 3)
    First Aid Kit
     Gauze Bandages
     Mil-Compress
     2 Suture Kits
     Motrin
     Lomotil
     Burn Cream
     Q-tips
     2 packets of USGI 'Sodium Cloride - Sodium Bicarbonate'
    Snake Bite Kit
    Canteen USGI
    Canteen Cup USGI
    Canteen Cup Stove USGI
    Canteen Carrier w/ Water Tabs USGI
    4 Trioxane Tabs
    With the above mentioned load - one is able to live and fight for a 1-2 day period without resupply.
    REMEMBER TO DUMMY CORD ANY ITEMS TO YOUR LBV!

    TOTAL WEIGHT OF 1st AND 2nd LINE GEAR IS:
     WITH M4gery w/ 12 + 1 mags (390 rds)- 56 pounds
     WITH DISSAPATOR w/ 12 + 1 mags (390 rds) - 57 pounds
     WITH AKM w/ 8 + 1 mags (270 rds) - 59 pounds
     WITH FN w/ 8 + 1 mags (180 rds) - 60 pounds












    3rd Line Gear (Heavy) - we mean you need to live out of your ruck for up to two weeks, or it is winter and you must carry more gear. This load out that I have here is for a winter scenario that lasts for 8 days or so.

    This will work with the Large ALICE pack.

    4 10' lengths of OD bungee cord
    20' of 550 cord
    2 Liter Water carrier (civy wide mouth canteen)
    Water Bladder Camelback Storm in Ruck
    Water Purifier (I use a 'Pur Hiker')
    Sleeping Bag (I use a Wiggy's Winter Bag - UltraLight in OD)
    Sleeping Pad Thermarest
    Bivy Shelter (I use a Sierra Designs - Light Year CD - it works great as a cold weather bivy)
    4 pair of socks USGI OD
    2 set of cammies (top and bottom)
    2 OD Tee Shirts
    8 MRE's - Stripped
    6 packets of Top Ramen with Noodles
    Gore Tex Rain Suit Top and Bottom
    1 Packet of 'Bum Wipes' (Baby Wipes) UNSCENTED!
    Small tooth brush NO TOOTH PASTE!
    AA Batteries 24 pack
    Extra Ammo in bandoleers
    2 Pair Thermal Underwear (Thermax/Polypro,etc.)
    Winter Gloves
    Sleep Hat USGI OD
    4 pair Thermo Socks
    Snow Camo (I use West German Top and Bottom Over Garments)

    TOTAL WEIGHT OF 1st, 2nd and 3rd LINE (Heavy) GEAR IS:
     WITH M4gery w/ 12 + 1 mags and 2 140 rd bando (670 rds)- 106 pounds
     WITH DISSAPATOR w/ 12 + 1 mags and 2 140 rd bando (670 rds) - 107 pounds
     WITH AKM w/ 8 + 1 mags and 280 rds boxed (550 rds) - 111 pounds
     WITH FN w/ 8 + 1 mags and 2 100 rd bandos (380 rds) - 108 pounds
 

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Keeper of Tomes
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This list is similar to an Afghanistan mission packing list. However, with some civilian modifications. What is this groups mission statement? What is their stated purpose? The reason i ask is that much this stuff wouldnt be needed if they are training for CONUS operations. Its a good list though if you wanna play Army.
 

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Premium Member
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No. It sounds to me like you're evaluating a bunch of anal wannabe soldiers. Give me a break! I'm not sure what their idea of "survivalist" is. Sounds like this is a bunch of armchair dudes who have no life and so they spend their time making up their idea of the "ultimate" warrior bag and probably don't have half the stuff they claim. I bet they go out every weekend and play paintball too! Gosh, I guess I shouldn't diss them. To each his or her own.

For me, all I want to do is live a self-sustainable life. I want to be able to protect best I can my family, my way of life and my neighbors if possible. I'm not lookin' at being in a war with anyone unless it's brought to me. I prep and it does go beyond food and gear but I ain't lookin' for WWIII.

I see nothing on this list which indicates food stocks or preparation for anyone but the individual. Wonder if these are some of the people who think they will live off stealing from others and taking what they want?

Imo, serious shtf as in this kind of getup is required we will look like a ragtag motley crew of people all shapes, sizes, skills and what kind of clothing you have won't matter.
 

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Carpe Diem, Noctem Habere
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Tell them too go on a 5 day patrol with that set up right there and by the time they get back they will be tearing gear out of their pack. While all of that is good stuff to have (if you know how to use it) you're not going to carry all of it on a patrol...with that list for a 5 day patrol you would need to carry 74 AA bats. No ****ing way. Gortex bottoms, thermarest, ect. you rarely need. Also that list only has about 7 liters of water. Lets see how far any of their group can go during the summer with 7 liters of water...If they move during they day I'll guess their they'll have their first heat cas. in less than 24 hrs.
This is similar (somewhat) to the setup I use on patrols, but this seems to have been written by someone who really hasn't gone out and tested this list. There is a lot of bs you don't need and they way they have it put together is just dumb.
 

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Evaluating a local "Survival Group". They have some pretty strict requirements for gear....

[long list of weapons and ammo]

we mean you need to live out of your ruck for up to two weeks...

8 MRE's - Stripped
6 packets of Top Ramen with Noodles
Ask about their moral checklist. After two weeks does this include raiding
their neighbors after finding out living off the land doesn't work?

I wouldn't ask this question if I hadn't heard it over the last 20 years.

At least there was something of humor:

1 Packet of 'Bum Wipes' (Baby Wipes) UNSCENTED!
Ask them why they needed this specified? Is the group that tight? :eek:
 

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Those instant ramen packets are full of msg for the hubby and I that's an instant blinding headache. I'm sure were not alone in that affect. I'd love to se this group hike go out and try to survive with this pack for a weekend.
 

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Adventurer
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its a good list of thuff to have but i wouldnt take half that on a combat patrol
on a combat patrol you want water food and bullets and whatever few nessesities that are mission specific there list has tooo much crap
56 lbs for a 2 day patrol wtf try 25-30 tops patrols need to be able to move to gather intel on enemy werabouts or secure an area not get to were there going too tired to fight and why are they carrying extra bandoleers of ammo in addition to there 12 m4 mags the standard combat load for infantry is 7 mags unless you want to carry extra i could understand if they said each person carries an extra 100rnd belt to help a machinegunner with his load but having one dude carry 670 rounds for his personal weapon is retarded when we weighed all our gear for a mission looked it was about 60-70 inclubind vest
 

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It seems like a lot lot of good gear, but too much of it! I agree, surviving the shtf is going to require a lot more than just playing soldier. I'd like to see them try lugging that 3rd line setup 20 or 30 miles through the woods, if the mission called for it.
 

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Wanderer
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This is a bit detailed, and I apologise for it being out of order but I had to go back and make a list so as not to miss any of the big problems...

Band Aids: Never include bandaids in a combat/survival first aid kit. It's a joke. A tube of superglue will do the same and much more, and wont fall off when it gets wet.

Pcord: listed twice. Hmm.

Purifying tablets: Also listed twice, and not specified. Iodine will kill almost everything, as it's a low grade toxin. If borught or made into a high concentration liquid, it's also a wound cleaner (Yes, Iodine is the brown liquid they wipe you down with at the hospital before surgery.) It will stain and can destroy the inside of platipus and camelbak water pouches, so for these use clear liquid purifier available at any camping store.

Firearm cleaning patches: Hope you know exactly how many you'll need and how long the fight will last. Bring a swatch or two of cotton tshirt, same size as cleaning swatches, instead. this can be cleaned with water or gun cleaner and reused. Over and over and over.

Q tips: Nope. How long is a Q tip good? Use a corner of shirt poked into a spot with a knife tip, or a cut off end of a toothbrush. this will last much, much longer doing the same job.

12 30rd mags for rifle, 1 extra mag for pistol: Really? Alright, think it through on just weight. Does it make sense to bring a 3-6 lbs firearm with only 40 rounds max (9mm 20rd mags), or would it make more sense to even these out a little more? Also notice they've made no effort to standardize ammo. That'll be fun when someone yells "Mag!" and you toss them one that'll either jam or explode in their hands.

Film canister of dryer lint: If you're taking this much space, why not use it on a small squeeze bottle of lighter fluid? Don't handycap yourself. If this is combat/survival prep, take the best you can. You are not car camping, you are prepping for WAR.

Ramen seasoning packets: *deep sigh*. Survival is just that. If you'd like to throw a few seasoning packets in your bag to make your day a little better, that's fine. In that case I'd suggest going to a grocery store and getting bullion cubes instead; smaller size, more seasoning. If you're building a survival kit, use the space for electrolite/salt/sugar packs for your water.

1in tubing: It's called "webbing", and to use it for a harness is crazy uncomfotable and unecessary. Learn a hip belay and all you need is a rope. Not judging on comfort, however, I have been rock/ice climbing regularly for over a decade now including most of colorado's 14ers and a few peaks around the world and would tell you not to trust your weight to any 'tubing' that's only single stitch. This means the line of black stitching running lengthwise down the center of the webbing should be TWO lines. Remember when buying webbing/cord/rope that you aren't stopping your weight, you're stopping your weight accelerating at 9.8ft per second. That means if a 170lbs guy falls 1 foot, the rope has to stop 1,666lbs. This is wqhy climbing rope is rated to Hold a tour bus. Also, don't put your weight hanging directly down from any Static line (doesnt stretch; you want Dynamic) if expecting a fall, and dont trust cordellet under 8mm. 9 will hold your weight on it's own in a fall, 10 is speed rope, most climbing rope ios 11 or 12mm.

BFK in dropdown sheath: Too many SWAT movies. Just as crossdraw holsters are the easiest thing in the world for anyone with 20 minutes of hand to hand training to stop you using, a dropdown knife is easy access for your opponent as well as you. This is a KNIFE. If you need it badly enough to keep it on your chest then you're expecting close combat. Plan on the other guy having some idea what he's doing. Boot knives are not just a good idea because they're tradition; They're hard to loose without a foot going with it, hard to take away from you without grappling on the ground, and pulling it out forces you into a good fighting stance- low, legs spread, one foot and hand back, angled side towards enemy. Dropdown knives are pretty in the same way chromed firearms are; be more afraid of the guy you doesn't store his knife in plain sight and under his rifle sling.

...
But then, that's just my opinion.
 

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Lots of wasted items in that list. Redundancy is good if it is something critical, but you are with other people. What are the odds of everyone needing a second fire starting kit?

I am not sure exactly what their mission statement is, but it sounds like they are trying to use one set of kit for all missions. It just didn't work out that way for us down range. There is no way I would carry a large alice with all that crap on a day or two day patrol. And in a survival situation do you need to be doing 3-5 day recon patrols? Hell no! You probably don't have the infrastructure to support that kind of thing. If you need to go far take an ATV or pick-up truck. Then you can go farther and carry more. But what kind of patrol would you need to do that lasts 3-5 days?

I gotta agree that they have been watching too many movies.
 

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READY&ABLE
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his best bet is to "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!" why does one guy need 4 rifles? it should be 1 rifle, 1 sidearm, 2 knives.....
also he has no means of filtering water if he comes across a river or lake....

to much gear, not enough training....
 

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I agree with what others have already said.....these guys sound like they have good ideas, theorys about what to carry/pack but have never actually been in the field. No disrespect to them, these kinds of discussions, making lists etc. are good for getting ideas out and getting you thinking but it finally has to come down to what works in the real world. I don't think their requirements for what you must carry are realistic.....way too much stuff and not the right stuff.
 

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and all those batteries? holy hell
 

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my favorite parts:
Map of AO (factory folds, laminated, no additional marking - so if you lose it, it does not TOTALLY compromise the mission)
FRS communication device
no doodling! they might not be able to waterboard the information from you, but i'm certain they can read. and you need a walkie-talkie, don't worry you can get one *anywhere*. yeah the range is like 5 miles with line of sight, but you've got 3 pairs of fatigues...put 'em on and you won't be able to find yourself.
 

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I'm the boogey man.......
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FRS communication device
The most easily eavesdropped and compromised communication system on the planet.....

Myself and 2 other people can easily figure out EXACTLY where you are when you key up with nothing more than a map, a scanner and a directional antenna....
 
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Sam Adams was right....
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carrying all that weight ya'll will be able to hear em' a mile away huffing & puffin...
 
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Keeper of Tomes
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That's quite the inventory

How much do those packs weigh?
This packing list is actually lighter then the pack i carried in Afghanistan. I had basically everything on their list minus some small things like the survival kit stuff BUT i had to carry 25 pounds additional in SINGAR batteries. Their load would have been a dream come true.

The most easily eavesdropped and compromised communication system on the planet.....

Myself and 2 other people can easily figure out EXACTLY where you are when you key up with nothing more than a map, a scanner and a directional antenna....
We used FRS in Iraq. Civilians have very little options when it comes to comms. Our Midlands were used when the damage of not communicating was greater then keying the mic. Their are many times when this would be a viable means of communications. It should be included.

I think we are being to harsh on them. Especially when we dont know their mission statement. I mean its the internet so judging is going happen but they seem to be trying to adhere to a military standard which from a militia stand point is a good thing. If they are a survival group thats different. We just dont know.
 
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