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Humble Coffee Maker
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take a round in the helmet and answer your own statements
So everyone in SOCOM and 99% of the tactical teams in the US use ballistic helmets just because they like the extra weight? Stop putting out disinformation. You can even google a video online of a Marine taking a sniper round to the dome in Iraq and walking away from it fine, because of his helmet.
 

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My question is what other crap did the bullet hit before hitting the helmet looking at all the crap that goes onto a modern military helmet vs the grunt grade stuff fielded up to vietnam

what are we basing the ballistics on point blank range or 500+meters with a russian sniper or some form machine gun firing a single shot

Yes I have seen a number of videos on you tube though never seen anyone actually do a kill shot on a helmet to see if you could survive a head shot..

Though I have seen a few videos of people using helmets dummy targets lure a sniper out..
 

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My question is what other crap did the bullet hit before hitting the helmet looking at all the crap that goes onto a modern military helmet vs the grunt grade stuff fielded up to vietnam

what are we basing the ballistics on point blank range or 500+meters with a russian sniper or some form machine gun firing a single shot

Yes I have seen a number of videos on you tube though never seen anyone actually do a kill shot on a helmet to see if you could survive a head shot..

Though I have seen a few videos of people using helmets dummy targets lure a sniper out..
We don’t have to test helmets in battle. We have laboratories that test ballistic armor. The common standard is the NIJ. There standards are rated for different levels. Most common is 3a which is basically handgun and shotgun protection. Rifle resistant helmets are gonna be kinda heavy.

helmets are also rated for fragmentation and implant protection.
 

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Just MHO. If it doesn't click for you, that's fine by me. I think that as an individual defender, not a SWAT cop or soldier, if I need body armor, it is probably only going to prolong the inevitable. I have not heard, nor can I find, an instance of a civilian being saved by body armor in a self defense situation. So I will not worry about it. Yeah, I can hear it now, "Well, what if..." You can "what if" anything.
 

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yup and some people who create tests will only seek favorable conditions of likely outcomes rather than test to failure point..

Like I said before i Have no issues in using body armor however there is a limit to their use and a shot to the head between the neck and the top of the eye socket would likely killyou

sadly what is issued to cops and and journo's are likely pistol rated vests not rifle rated..

If you own a gun, you're likely to spend a double to triple amount on body armor to combat what you fire
 

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yup and some people who create tests will only seek favorable conditions of likely outcomes rather than test to failure point..

Like I said before i Have no issues in using body armor however there is a limit to their use and a shot to the head between the neck and the top of the eye socket would likely killyou

sadly what is issued to cops and and journo's are likely pistol rated vests not rifle rated..

If you own a gun, you're likely to spend a double to triple amount on body armor to combat what you fire

I don’t think you understand how body armor testing works. The armor is tested by the national institute for justice lab. They have an objective standard that has been proven to work for testing. They shoot several samples and measure look for penetration and back face deformation of the material inside the amor. You can chose not to believe in the science , but body armor has been standardized this way for decades and has saved thousands of lives.

Testing to failure is not really important for body armor. You’re not interested in the max capability of the armor. You’re interested in if it meets a consistent standard. The standard of testing determines the rating. Nobody cares if the armor will over preform, just that it won’t under preform.


And as far as sadly pistol rated armor being issued it’s not sad. It’s practicality and technology. . Soft armor is 3a max. Hard body armor is actually not more expensive BUT is heavier and less comfortable. Considering the likelihood of a rifle threat is extremely small for most cops and rifle rated armor plate is extremely uncomfortable , they get soft body armor. SWAT and some other teams get hard armor to wear on raids. I’m sure the average cop on patrol is not sad he gets less miserable soft body armor to wear in the heat all day.
 

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Just MHO. If it doesn't click for you, that's fine by me. I think that as an individual defender, not a SWAT cop or soldier, if I need body armor, it is probably only going to prolong the inevitable. I have not heard, nor can I find, an instance of a civilian being saved by body armor in a self defense situation. So I will not worry about it. Yeah, I can hear it now, "Well, what if..." You can "what if" anything.

I am not sure how many civilians have been saved by armor. It is most certainly more than zero , but I am not even sure we know for sure how many cops have been saved by armor. There is just no place to report this to and collect the data.
 

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Had spent hours upon hours at meetings discussing this subject.

A headnote: When the VA reports show the helmet saved the patient's life from small arms fire, the neck injury caused the death.

Another headnote - especially focused for the prepper: Much is a tradeoff. The "ideal" situation does not exist. Recommend spend much time on risk management.

Madam and I have body armor. + helmet ..... at the time acquired, it was the world's best at 3A level. In retirement here on a coastal zone (the flood plain designations can be artificial lines [take enough waterfront property off the tax rolls and watch the propossed zones get changed] ) much risk management established that utility type work vests for working around water provided more protection for our situation. $$$ not necessarily saved. There are strobes that automatically activate when falling into water. For the rich, these vests can be outfitted with transponders.
I learned a brown shoe navy term from this research. In my business environment, a term we used was "stress overload". A couple of USN helicopter pilots introduced us to their term " helmet heat".

Definitely must work on risk management in tanndem with one's budget. Talk to your public safety and emergency medical responders. Not too much is new under the sun.
 

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Just MHO. If it doesn't click for you, that's fine by me. I think that as an individual defender, not a SWAT cop or soldier, if I need body armor, it is probably only going to prolong the inevitable. I have not heard, nor can I find, an instance of a civilian being saved by body armor in a self defense situation. So I will not worry about it. Yeah, I can hear it now, "Well, what if..." You can "what if" anything.
I haven't heard of any situation where a defender was using body armor in firefight or home invasion. What I have seen are criminals wearing some with prolonged engagements because he was wearing it.

But yeah you're right, everyone has to decide for themselves. I can tell you this, it's hard to wish something in to existence when you feel like you're gonna need it. Heck, I've even put my kids in some of my armor when we had tornado warnings going off. Flying debris is a mother .
 

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Humble Coffee Maker
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Just MHO. If it doesn't click for you, that's fine by me. I think that as an individual defender, not a SWAT cop or soldier, if I need body armor, it is probably only going to prolong the inevitable. I have not heard, nor can I find, an instance of a civilian being saved by body armor in a self defense situation. So I will not worry about it. Yeah, I can hear it now, "Well, what if..." You can "what if" anything.
So if you had the high probability of being in a gunfight, you wouldn't wear body armor? Your logic is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start. I have highly concealable hesco L210 plates. They are light, thin, and can be worn under a hoodie or jacket in my carrier. Do I wear it all the time or would I? Of course not. But if I had any sort of heads up that their might be trouble i.e. raiders in the area, people coming for my preps/stores, travelling in an unknown area where there are mobs/riots, going to smoke some people who killed my neighbors ETC ETC I would have vitals coverage that can sustain multi hits of any AK47 or AR15 round. Everything you do is prolonging the inevitable. You know your going to die someday right? Why prep? Body armor nowadays is easily accessible, relatively inexpensive, and significantly superior to anything in the past. Not having it, its pure laziness and short sightedness. Make up as much BS as you want its a simple fact that those that can protect themselves would logically do so. Thats just MHO.
 

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I keep a plate carrier w/plates in the truck along with an older Kevlar helmet (it was free). It hangs out under the back seat as a just-in-case. I don’t see the point in bringing a full IOTV and ACH with me as a daily. It’s hard to imagine a situation where two things happen.
1-a gun battle is instantaneous and unpredicted and over quickly.
2- an extended firefight where LE isn’t on scene eventually.
I’m fairly quick at putting my gear on (decades of practice) but not every situation will allow time for getting dressed. Sometimes you are just “in it” and returning fire is the only immediate option. But having the gear available is still a good choice.
 

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Humble Coffee Maker
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I keep a plate carrier w/plates in the truck along with an older Kevlar helmet (it was free). It hangs out under the back seat as a just-in-case. I don’t see the point in bringing a full IOTV and ACH with me as a daily. It’s hard to imagine a situation where two things happen.
1-a gun battle is instantaneous and unpredicted and over quickly.
2- an extended firefight where LE isn’t on scene eventually.
I’m fairly quick at putting my gear on (decades of practice) but not every situation will allow time for getting dressed. Sometimes you are just “in it” and returning fire is the only immediate option. But having the gear available is still a good choice.
I also subscribe to this mindset. I don't run around wearing it. If I go somewhere extended my Nods/Helmet set up and armor go with me. I always have my concealed pistol on me so if the S was to go down in an area that I didn't particularly want to be in I would be getting off the X but the body armor might go on under the hoodie/jacket and my AR and helmet with nods would be on the back seat. Imagine a situation where you get trapped in a city after dark and need to get home. My armor, helmet, rifle and nods would be a WELCOME addition to my GHB. If there are thousands of people doing a thing, or buying a thing, I at least want to consider its probably viable. Then justify it for myself and my budget. What drives me crazy is there are alot of 'poors' on here that can't afford things and instead of saying "not in my budget" they make up BS reasons not to own things and bring those of us who can buy things down. I was poor once, and couldn't afford crap. That didn't mean I didn't want it or told people that had night vision and body armor that they were stupid LOL
 

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I also subscribe to this mindset. I don't run around wearing it. If I go somewhere extended my Nods/Helmet set up and armor go with me. I always have my concealed pistol on me so if the S was to go down in an area that I didn't particularly want to be in I would be getting off the X but the body armor might go on under the hoodie/jacket and my AR and helmet with nods would be on the back seat. Imagine a situation where you get trapped in a city after dark and need to get home. My armor, helmet, rifle and nods would be a WELCOME addition to my GHB. If there are thousands of people doing a thing, or buying a thing, I at least want to consider its probably viable. Then justify it for myself and my budget. What drives me crazy is there are alot of 'poors' on here that can't afford things and instead of saying "not in my budget" they make up BS reasons not to own things and bring those of us who can buy things down. I was poor once, and couldn't afford crap. That didn't mean I didn't want it or told people that had night vision and body armor that they were stupid LOL
Life is never simple and every battlefield is a fluid situation. Knowing the is CAS available and on station is a blessing but sometimes it isn’t. We just have to slug it out as we can.
Trying to be prepared for all situations is never going to happen and attempting to carry all the gear to reach that impossible goal would require a big convoy. But sticking to simple has worked well for me.
First defensive weapon I have is my brain. Logical thought and problem solving is my go to every time.
Shoot,move, and communicate are second.
Evade and survive are third.
All my gear on a daily is the minimum needed for those three. If I’m in my vehicle I have “extras” to bolster the three but it is my ability which keeps me from being shut down/dead, not the equipment I wish I had. Hopefully that makes sense?
If things went sideways and I’m in an urban environment, lost the vehicle and had to boogity-shoe out on foot, I’m still in the fight with the bare minimum. Anything I can salvage will add to it but at a cost of weight and speed. Knowing what’s there and having it organized allows me to make a snap selection and get moving.
 

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Redlineshooter: ...sadly what is issued to cops and and journo's are likely pistol rated vests not rifle rated..
Most police & journalists wear similar levels of helmet ballistic protection (if not the exact same things) that military formations employ. Unless they organizationally cheap-out and deliberately choose to buy sub-standard kit. Reporters I met in Bosnia, Afghanistan, or Iraq invariably had excellent armor & helmets. Their networks or pool agencies didn't mind spending for quality gear to protect their employees. Obviously, most US cops do not walk around day-to-day wearing plate (rifle rated) armor. Soft armor instead. Because our criminals tend to carry concealed handguns, not long guns.

For practical purposes (availability, affordability, wearability) ballistic helmets are almost never "rifle-rated". The few that are tend to be ferociously expensive modular models with add-on shields (several thousand dollars each) or super heavy monstrosities suitable for only temporary wear by specialized assault elements (notably used by Russian HRT elements). The other 99.9% of wearers (including almost all American formations) have issued Level IIIA helmets on their pumpkins. The same thing I wore while serving in various SOF Task Forces. Rifle rated (Level III or IV) helmets are a pretty rare thing to encounter in the wild.

Up until recent years, US military ballistic helmets weren't even formally tested under the NIJ system; instead being evaluated under a much more complex/stringent military testing format. One that took into account fragmentation, blast waves, & TBI effects.

Nevertheless, ballistic military helmets of the modern age (since 1980s) all test out at a minimum of NIJ Level IIA + (PASGT) and current models (ACH, MICH, LWH, etc.) delivering Level IIIA +.

Do modern Level IIIA helmets frequently defeat rifle fire? Damn straight.

Helmet saves have been a thing since the PASGT was introduced back in the early 80s. Routinely defeating 5.56, 7.62 x 39, and even 7.62 x 54R. None of them officially rated to do so... but doing it nonetheless. Not always, but often enough to count.

Helmet curvature and material layering functions much like sloped armor on tanks. Allowing them to defeat threats that would otherwise penetrate under ideal testing conditions. Defeating rounds on the battlefield at both long and short ranges and in a direct fire mode (not just ricochets nor after penetrating intermediate barriers that slow projectile velocity).

The following incidents all involved rifle caliber hits to Level IIIA (non-rifle rated) standard infantry combat ballistic helmets:

Israeli Soldier hit by sniper fire: Lebanese TV airs footage of Gaza sniper shooting IDF officer in helmet

USMC hit in helmet by sniper: Marine shot in the head in Afghanistan gets back helmet that saved his life


--------------------------

Some of my previous discussion/observations about helmets:




Worn armor and helmets do not confer immunity to bullet strikes... but they up your odds immensely. I've had friends struck in unprotected gaps. Some died. Some survived their wounds. But I never knew anyone who died from a rifle hit on their worn armor (or helmet). I personally know about a dozen folks who are walking around today after being wounded by rifle caliber fire that missed their armor coverage (or they weren't wearing armor to begin with). Especially survivable were hits from 7.62 x 39.

If you get shot through the face, armpit, neck, abdomen, limbs, etc., it just wasn't your day. But armor definitely works for the parts of the body & head that you can routinely protect.
 

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Humble Coffee Maker
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Life is never simple and every battlefield is a fluid situation. Knowing the is CAS available and on station is a blessing but sometimes it isn’t. We just have to slug it out as we can.
Trying to be prepared for all situations is never going to happen and attempting to carry all the gear to reach that impossible goal would require a big convoy. But sticking to simple has worked well for me.
First defensive weapon I have is my brain. Logical thought and problem solving is my go to every time.
Shoot,move, and communicate are second.
Evade and survive are third.
All my gear on a daily is the minimum needed for those three. If I’m in my vehicle I have “extras” to bolster the three but it is my ability which keeps me from being shut down/dead, not the equipment I wish I had. Hopefully that makes sense?
If things went sideways and I’m in an urban environment, lost the vehicle and had to boogity-shoe out on foot, I’m still in the fight with the bare minimum. Anything I can salvage will add to it but at a cost of weight and speed. Knowing what’s there and having it organized allows me to make a snap selection and get moving.
Sounds like we are two peas in a pod. Even if I had to ditch my vehicle last second and was unable to grab any of the goodies in it i'd still have a pistol, spare magazine, knife, flashlight, lockpick set, basic first aid kit(on my ankle). If I can grab bail out gear from the truck I am extremely well stocked.
 

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Humble Coffee Maker
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If you get shot through the face, armpit, neck, abdomen, limbs, etc., it just wasn't your day. But armor definitely works for the parts of the body & head that you can routinely protect.
Thanks for dropping some knowledge bombs on these uneducated doubters. I saw alot of guys saved in war by their body armor. In the olden days Armor and quality weapons were really all that separated knights from pheasants. That and maybe a horse and formal training. Forgo the horse, and quality weapons, body armor, and training today make you a knight. The peasants are everywhere. I like my Knight friends' and my chances.
 

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Thanks for dropping some knowledge bombs on these uneducated doubters. I saw alot of guys saved in war by their body armor. In the olden days Armor and quality weapons were really all that separated knights from pheasants. That and maybe a horse and formal training. Forgo the horse, and quality weapons, body armor, and training today make you a knight. The peasants are everywhere. I like my Knight friends' and my chances.
Damn those unarmored pheasants.
 
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