Survivalist Forum banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Dumpster Diver
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I see so many posts about obtaining "Hi capacity " firearms

assuming a budget for firearms,( exclusive of the budget for food, fuel etc) of some determined amount , usually for most of us a limited amount,, but even a larger one, but not unlimited
1st thing comes to my mind,, is that an Alamo type standoff is not likely, unless you are in the sparsely settled West ...and there are no other homes for considerable distance,, no other place to raid,, then yea, I can envision an attack by overwhelming numbers

In a more settled area, village or suburbia,, it seems that any show of resistance would cause pillagers to move on to a nearby lesser defended or undefended, or vacated target

but should a group for some reason attempt to attack,, I think a greater number of shooters at your location would be more effective than a lesser number with greater individual rapid firepower

this may be simplistic , but to my mind, say with $1000 or less to spend,, I would think that , take me, my wife and my young teen girl and several skels wanting to get in ==not a surprise door crash----,, for illustration I will bite on the oft envisioned or implied & posted "gun battle" scenario where some armed people moving down the street slowly, begin advancing,on our position , and are not deterred by a warning volley

lets say I have My lever action 30-30 or a 44, whatever.. or a bolt action 30-06, or my SKS.. , wife has the (semi) Auto5 12 ga with an extender tube, and the kid has an semiauto .22 or even a little lever Henry with 11 or 12 rounds

total cost to acquire is equal or less than a single modern high capacity "Battle Rifle" for me alone

I can take the leader,with slow, but well aimed shots... or the more distant sniper types with the rifle
while my wife tosses 9 30 cal balls with each trigger squeeze (with a 3 foot spread at 50+ yards, ) at flankers,, or takes out anyone getting closer that I have missed,,
and the kid, (who actually shoots well, but say one did not) can at the very least,, very worst toss suppressive fire in the general direction keeping heads down until I have time to pick out and pop one popping up or runner slowing or turning to fire.

an interesting thing about a lever action .be it a .22, 30-30, even a shotgun, whatever, is that while the capacity is limited , you can keep the tube full easily in case you are rushed by your opponents by pushing in however many you just used,, even a child can do it.while keeping the muzzle down range ready to acquire another target too

now compare this with say, just me with an AR etc.., I have 30 rounds in a mag, but only Two eyes ... I can be outflanked,, lets say even one flanker escapes being hit and drops unseen behind cover, .....as I look toward the other side for threats,, he gets me
and we have not even considered exposures 2 ,3 and 4 ..

and of course if the others in my little group are not armed,, they become defenseless prey and victims of revenge.

moreover, it is not a machine gun,, laying down a continuous 120 degree field of fire,, and there is plenty of history of 3 to 5 skirmishers taking out belt or drum fed machine guns ...My Dad was one of them.

Some interesting reading is the attack on the block house chapter in the classic " Treasure Island"

your thoughts ???
be nice now... lets all advance our own ideas for consideration,, not spend a lot of time tearing down others ideas,, if your idea/opinion is better it will stand on its own merit
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,832 Posts
I realize most folks think combat is a bunch of solo shooters all gettin some, but there's actually a strategy involved. Cover or suppressive fire is only secondarily to hit the enemy; its primarily to control the enemies movement while you move into a more advantageous position. The majority of rounds fired in today's hi-cap kinetic engagements are not precisely aimed fire so caliber choices becomes more flexible ...

If I had 3 shooters, 2 of which only had Ruger 10/22s (let's say), and the 3rd had a Marlin 336 (let's say) ... nobody's going to stick their head up because "Oh, they're only shooting .22s at me." Keep 'em stocked in BX-25s, teach them shoot in 3 round bursts, alternating on the same target and you've got suppressive fire and covering fire so you can move into a better position and play whackamole with the 30-30.

Imagine, gutshot with a 40gr hollow point in a world without hygiene, 911 or an ER, especially if that little critter expands and fractures off say the pelvic bone. Oh, what a horribly long and painful way to expire. (I won't say I taught my kids to aim low center mass with a 22, then again I might have.) Don't fight like a cop that needs to control it fast; fight like a soldier, a ruthless dirty soldier; neutralize the enemy - DRT isn't necessary - and move. I'm happy to let 'em bleed out slowly as long as they're not on my 6.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,434 Posts
Practice and skill can make up for capacity.

I would rather have firearms for every person able to use one rather than one high end wonder blaster.

I can't be everywhere at all times, but every member of the family can be armed and able to defend themselves, hunt, and cover my back.

I'd rather my family had a half dozen Mausers and Ruger 10/22's and a decent handgun each, than a couple of Daniel Defense AR's.
 

·
Fenced In
Joined
·
3,257 Posts
It's all situational, dependent mostly on your environment and whether you are arming yourself with mobility in mind versus defending the ol' homestead. If you're on the move and encounter the proverbial bad guys, you might find yourself fighting on unfamiliar territory while hauling supplies and essential equipment. You're just trying to push on to wherever it is your headed, not losing your limited food, water and meds in the process. You don't have to eliminate your assailants, you just need to get out alive.

On the other hand, if you're defending your home/camp/BOL, you hopefully know the lay of the land, are fighting from cover, and aren't burdened with every single possession strapped to your back. You may have the luxury of assigning someone to guard duty, equipped for a variety of threats, in addition to whatever weapons everyone else is carrying at the moment. From a proper defensive position, you hopefully have immediate access to more ammo and backup weapons. Ideally, you eliminate the threat before it comes down to close quarters encounters, but CQB weapons could be strategically placed rather than carried on your person depending on your specific environment.

For my own situation, the only concern I can really do anything about is having weapons available that both my wife and I can use effectively. Beyond that, it would be a matter of taking up defensive positions from which to best use those weapons. As ChapNelson already pointed out, if you're shooting at someone, they're not going to be worrying about what caliber firearm you have, only if you're capable of hitting them. Now, I'll take the biggest mags that will reliably feed my weapon of choice, and at least a couple fully-loaded spares, as much to resolve mag-related issues as to increase capacity. Any additional weapons are for when an attacker closes the gap and my primary long-range weapon is no longer suited to the encounter. At some point, that may well stop being a firearm entirely.
 

·
Thank you very much
Joined
·
4,322 Posts
With a thousand you should be able to get an AK/AR, a pump shotgun, and a semi 22. I think I would rather have that setup.
 

·
Retired kafir
Joined
·
17,644 Posts
Scary scenario.

What do you have that they want so badly that they would advance on you in a hail of gunfire? What do they THINK you have. Would any one of them risk getting shot over it?

I can't imagine ordinary street thugs doing this. The organized bad people maybe? Would loyalty to their group persuade an individual to get himself killed over STUFF? That house over there is unarmed and WAY easier. No?

I would go with the multiple shooter defense. Train and arm the whole family. If you get yourself shot, then what would they do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,921 Posts
As soon as you "figure out" how it is going down, someone will come along an do it differently and your plan goes away. I was sitting on my porch one evening and twelve people walked around the corner. Two or three had tats on their faces. Not little tear drop by the eye but across their foreheads. Mark of MS13. I had my WASR in my lap really fast. They remained polite, got water out of the hose and left. If I had a slow to reload rifle or limited cap, perhaps they would not have been polite. This happened ten miles from Mexico so perhaps you won't have that situation. But you could.
 

·
Dumpster Diver
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Funny how that happens.

It's humorous to watch people who have obviously never been in a firefight in their lives spell out how it's going to go down with the utmost confidence.

thank you,, you make my point..


exactly why I posted this,...because I do not think it is humorous
I think it is dangerous.

thus I posted just one of the scenarios,, prolly the most unlikely one, altho i can tell you from personal experience it is not entirely impossible.

There are many others obviously, but we have to start somewhere to get folks to think,, and I am gratified by the responses above to see that some here have and do.
But I chose this one as it seems to be the one many in the "prepper" community, and apparently the overwhelming majority of the customers in my LGS dwell upon to the exclusion of many more likely ones

I say that because the LGS , happily for it , hands a steady stream of high capacity "black rifles" over the counter , usually to guys who have 1 or 2 already, and apparently feel better "prepped" by having more than they can carry......
but very very seldom,, do I see anyone walk in with wife or child in tow to see if any of the alternatives on the racks ,trapper model lever 357's , 410 pumps,, whatever.... will fit them and be simple enough to operate under stress and with just a modicum of training to build autonomic response and muscle memory.

It appears from those observations, and conversations overheard at the LGS.., that these guys , many of whom.,---- (not all .. some-- the vets and a LEO or two do obviously have actual experience ---but a few possibly none other than cleaning & caressing their phallic symbols nightly ) ---- have considerable experience in "firefights" with silhouettes, and have never had a round coming the opposite direction---- yet foresee themselves standing gallantly like Horatio at the Gate defending their family..... buoyed by confidence inspired by their ability to change 30 round magazines rapidly without dropping them.... with no foresight as to who will be keeping heads down, who is covering the flanks,,, who is on the other 3 exposures,, who is going to open the fire extinguisher onto that bottle that just came thru the window. Who is holding Rex back in reserve instead of letting him charge out the door into a bullet..

and If the pricey body armor they somehow had time to don,, (or do they sleep in in it ?) is compromised, or they took one in the face,,or they were having some beers at the tavern after a hard day at the range,, and the family was unguarded...... how do Mama Mary Lu and little Susie keep their knees together when the skels cross the threshold, whether unopposed in Big Daddys absence or over his body.

just trying to get more guys to think "outside the box", daemon 734 sir.

I do see from posts on this board, that many, most of the members have outfitted the wives/girlfriends with weapons and some training, I don't hear as much of that around town ...some yes,, but I hear there and read here.. very little about the kids. the live in Mother in Law.. getting training, and a suitable weapon,, or consideration as a resource.. .

and amongst the wives who do have handguns in purse,, how many do get opportunity to join the "good ol boys " for some drilling on working the hubbys AR's etc.
and the ones who do not have sidearms ? the ones not "interested " in firearms,,, do guys at least get them to shoot the .410...or a 9mm carbine ,, or hopefully a 20 ga...a few times at least,, enough to know at a minimum, where the safety is,,?
 

·
I sell US Military MRE's
Joined
·
6,477 Posts
"but should a group for some reason attempt to attack,, I think a greater number of shooters at your location would be more effective than a lesser number with greater individual rapid firepower"

I would prefer... "a greater number of shooters with greater individual rapid firepower."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
So is it the point of this post to say that its better to have 3-4 armed people with decent weapons rather than 1 person armed with a really nice weapon for defending off looters?

The answer to your question is to buy the best you can afford while arming and training everyone who can fight. If they are not trained and effective with their weapons they will be a greater hindrance than help in a firefight.

As far as deciding what will provide you with adequate defense, well it is your life and the lives of your family so its really up to you. I know I personally would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Now to address arming a small group for defense for under $1k, well even your choices would cost more than that...

AK-47 - $530
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1CAKO-PAP

HP 995 - $320 x2
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...515/HI-P+MKS+9TSPP+9MM+16.5+WPROPAK+10RD+BLK+

All in all around $1,100 and you could effectively defend yourself from a group of thugs...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,001 Posts
The US Military has been at it for a decade or two, but bro, this is a SURVIVAL FORUM. We here know that they've got it wrong, and that the lever action that they rejected, by and large, when it was refined and pushed on them by Winchester really is the Warfighter's weapon of the future.
 

·
Dumpster Diver
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
@Spitfire

Your choices are well thought out,, and darn good advice for many here,
total $1150 (+ some extra magazines)

I had only posted the $1000 as a hypothetical amount, a nice round figure,,
you are $150 over but that's fine,, , maybe a guys budget is $1200 or $1500
maybe it is only $900 , which could get him 3 HP995s or 3 SKS's

, maybe a guys budget is $1200 or $1500, or $2000,,, I pose only one financial situation,, and one likely applicable to a lot of people in a nation with a real unemployment rate of 1 in 5 not the 1 in 14 the gov't calculates,,

I just used a grand as a landmark.

I actually have the firearms in my little hypothetical scenario
purchased used , good condition at retail LSG prices , a guy could do better privately

Savage 775A $175 (12 ga Semi Auto,),
.22 semi auto $100
Marlin 30-30 $300 ( or you could substitute my SkS which also cost $300)
................._____
...........total $575 vs just 1 AK at $500 +/-

that was my point,,

in addition to how much money a person has, ...or lacks... it depends where a person lives
:

Centerfire rifles are not allowed for hunting in my county nor several surrounding ones,, that is a combined area of over 3000 sq miles..
and don't nobody here chime in "Well , Just MOVE !!"

I don't think you Texans and Idahoins and such would be very happy if 19,570,261 NY'ers suddenly showed up in your town,, drawn by its sensible gun law freedoms.. LOL !!!! (and likely with Michigan'ers ,New Jerseyians and Massachusetts population following too !

so here, the money would be tied up doing nothing (other than at a range,, ) until SHTF in a degree that amounted to WROL occurred,, whereas the .22 and 12 ga could earn their keep , now...and then....by providing meat & fowl

in fact,, even if rifles were allowed for hunting here, without the shotgun and .22 , there would not be much squirrel fricassee or roast duck on the table.

AKs and AR15 etc are only allowed here if a person owned them prior to Jan last year,
AND , they must be registered, AND you cannot possess , none the less use a magazine larger than 10 rounds,, AND you cannot have the 10 rounder loaded, even in your own store or home , with more then 7 rounds,,

I will admit if things were so bad as to have an Alamo last stand at your home,, the law would be ignored,,

but between now and then,, or in an SHTF that was not entirely lawless chaos,, I do not care to have a weapon on file with the Gov't , nor do jail time if a 30 round mag was reported to have been seen in my possession or for accidentally loading that 8th shell into a 10 round mag


that all said, Spitfire,, I do thank you for your post... my point is posting was to encourage discussion, altho it did seem to draw 1 or 2 guys (not you or most ) to engage in a ..******* contest , as usual...

I actually nearly did buy a HP995 last week...(a guy bought it first ----after I encouraged him :( --- before I got my wallet out

the 995 . happily , IS legal here as it does not have a protruding detachable mag,,

and you are correct,, for a measly $300 that is a good addition,, wife could handle that,, whereas the SKS stripper clips do need more practice and presence of mind than a mag change does

thanks for bringing up the subject of the HP..

One of those would bring total investment then to $875 not too bad !!!
Even for a some guy reading this with a family of 4 to arm..who was on unemployment etc.

actually of course I hae several other firearms , so my "investment" is quite a bit more
I only used the described ones as an example,,, to make a point to those who have not chosen their weapons yet .. or only have one gun,, maybe a handgun.... that maybe a wiser idea, if he has only $600 , $700 etc available , is to leave the LGS with 3 guns "long guns" instead of one fancy hi cap one ...

some people might say 3 Mosins or something, But I tried to pick an assortment of firearms that are not too heavy, not too long to manuever (altho the particular shotgun in my scenario , (and in my closet) is 52 inches...

used affordable ammo (the SKS,, 12 g , and .22 ,, the 30-30 is pricey )

and were no brainers to operate,,

unlike many here on SB forums, I did Not pose this as "the ONLY Way," I posed it as just one One Way, one alternative to think about.

and as to Daemon734's snide comment, Son,, ya don't have to fly 1/2 around the world to have been in a "firefight" . or even a few... nuff said,, "Don't ask, Don't tell"
LOL
sorry , just could not resist that !! LOL,, not the first thread he has needled me on

"Why Can't We Be Friends ?" ("WAR") click here:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,008 Posts
I agree with the more weapons is better than more individual capacity, however, having both is even better and if a person starts building their arsenal now, they will be ahead of the game. I would start off with a .22LR semi-auto rifle followed by a 12GA shotgun and then a cheap pistol. Even a C9 is a good starting point, mine works fine. From there, work up as you can and don't forget to buy plenty of ammo as you can. I would personally go with an AR ASAP after that, but those three would easily be under $1000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,340 Posts
If you are in a situation are you really going to tell your elven year old to provide suppressive fire while you pick off the bad guys? When push comes to shove most parents aren't going put their kids in harms way. They might give them a gun and put them in a closet and tell them to shoot anyone that tries to enter but they aren't going to put them in the thick of things. In a quick, fast, up close and personal situation whoever gets accurate hits first is going to win. If you are really in a situation that requires suppressive fire you will need a high cap mag fed 22 with lots of mags if you plan on using a 22. It is possible to defend yourself with a cheaper gun, but if you have a better gun that you know how to use just as well then you will be better off. You are best to try to avoid those types of situations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Gangs fight with mostly handguns and they fight dirty. They would walk up to your car and shoot ya in the face. Good luck reaching for your 22 rifle or your Mosin in that situation. Most shooting are up close and personal. Rifle are good for war.This cowboy and Indians cracks me up.
 

·
Tin Can Sailor
Joined
·
3,225 Posts
Ditch the shotgun and get another lever action. In your scenario, the attackers won't get withing range of that shotgun until you and yours are already dead.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
962 Posts
Don't fire warning shots, it just wastes ammo, and it shows the enemy that you really don't want to kill, essentially shows weakness on your part, and will make you a victim, you would be better off shooting the first one that comes near, and make the rest think twice. Shooting one in group will take two more out of the battle.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top