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Scarred for life...
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Bartering is a necessary skill. Whether because of the economy or just to prepare for SHTF, you really should consider barter as a means to augment your income now, and as a way to survive in the future.



Bartering Now...

Most of you know me as someone who is very careful about advertising my preps. You might think that would preclude any form of barter on my part, but I have been able to build a small barter system and still maintain my anonymity.

I bought a book on barter a few years ago and started working on building a barter network. I was surprised at how well it has worked and also how quickly it got up and running.

Nowadays, I trade for basically anything of value. I have traded for guns, coin collections, books, tools, building materials (ie 2X4's, cinder blocks, etc), services, etc.

Starting out, I had little to trade and for the most part, I just paid cash for whatever I traded for, but as I acquired more and more “things” I was able to do a lot more cashless transactions.



LEGALITIES

To stay on the right side of the law, I always document who I got something from, how much I paid (or traded) for it, and the terms under which they can get the property back.

This system is very effective at weeding out those who would sell stolen property. It is also effective at keeping people honest. Many times someone will have buyer’s remorse and argue the points of a deal. The only way to combat this is to have a large part of the terms of the deal in writing, and to be anonymous enough that you cannot be immediately tracked down. (Generally if the other party decides they don't like the deal I will provide an “out” for them, in the interests of preserving trust)

Generally, if you are bartering a professional skill you should pay taxes on the value of items you receive for the performance of that skill. For instance if you roof houses for a living and you roof someone’s house in exchange for a used car, you should report the value of that used car as income.

Generally you would probably need to report the barter of something if it has a substantial value, such as a used car.

With that said, bartering personal items, especially used items which the sales tax has already been paid are seldom taxed. I'm not saying you shouldn't report these transactions but the fact that they are of little total value probably precludes the IRS from ever trying to collect taxes on them.

A final word on taxation. This is my opinion only. If you operate a business in which barter is a major component of your business, then you should consider paying taxes on the fruits of that barter. If you barter items that you bought and paid sales tax for something of roughly equal value, I seriously doubt that you would need to pay taxes.

I guess in the end, it all depends on how you barter, as much as what you barter. HINT HINT!!!!



GETTING STARTED

Take an inventory of your home. Do you have anything you don't use anymore? Maybe an older computer, or a washing machine, or some leftover 2X4's from your last home improvement project? These things can be traded.

OR, you can buy items in bulk and trade what you don't need. For instance maybe you buy 50 pounds of rice and trade out 20 pounds of it for something. Maybe your local Army surplus store has a deal on ammo cans if you buy a dozen at a time, but you only need 10. You get the idea.

OR, you can simply trade cash for something, until you can have something to trade.

Once you have something to barter, how do you find someone with which to trade? For me, this started out slowly. Eventually someone mentioned they needed something and I offered to provide for that need. When asked about what I wanted, I replied that I would consider all trades. From there I was able to trade with others and eventually the number of prospective trades outnumbered my ability to keep up.

At some point, you will have to develop the ability to TURN SOMEONE DOWN. This is a powerful tool in keeping people honest. They will always know that if they adopt a hard line approach with me, that I can and will walk away from the deal.

NOTE Consider trading with someone, even if they don't have something you need. By doing so you create rapport with the person you bartered with, and in the future they will think of you first if they want to barter again. In addition, you will diversify the things you have for barter and thereby increase the chance that you will be able to barter with someone else in the future.



SECURITY

It is important in bartering to let someone know what you have available for trade. If you do this and they know where you live, or where you have those items stored, you will almost certainly eventually be robbed of those items.
Therefore it is of the utmost importance that ALL of your transactions be done in such a way as to maintain your privacy and security.

Here are a few tips....

1. Use an email account specifically for bartering.

2. Use of a pay as you go type cell phone so that your number cannot be traced.

3. Do not tell anyone where you live or even what general area you live. When setting up a meeting with someone, exaggerate the distance you will need to travel to get there. Never agree to meet at your home.

4. Be very careful what you discuss with people. Some semi professional thieves are very good at eliciting information from you by figuring out just what you would like and offering extremely good trades in an effort to know where you live and where you keep you barter items. Always be on the lookout for this.

So far, I’ve not had a problem with security. I maintain a high degree of anonymity in pretty much all of my trades and I think this keeps most problems from occurring. For instance, most people I trade with know me by my email or phone number only.

If it weren't for this level of anonymity, I would not be able to recommend barter at all.

In addition, it is a good idea to have a good way to (securely) store what you have. I wouldn't recommend leaning your rifle collection up against the wall and leaving them there. The same goes for coin collections, and basically anything of value. Be prepared to lock things up. Chain the lawnmower to a tree or store it in the shed. Never leave bartered items in plain view. If you have a lot of guns, get a Job Box to put them in. It would take a professional thief quite a while to break into a job box and a novice thief would never get it open, even if they had an hour to try.



NEGOTIATING

At first, the ability to negotiate was a problem for me.

When I learned that I was in control of my money, or property and could do the deal or not do the deal I was able to approach the negotiations with much more ease and control. Many times I had to remind myself that I didn't have to complete a deal and because of that I was able to walk away.
Let me repeat, the ability to walk away from a bad deal is the most important skill you will learn.

Many prospective traders have no intention of ever completing a trade. They simply want to negotiate endlessly. To them, it is simply a form of entertainment. You should learn to recognize these people and avoid them.

Other people will attempt to trade with you and “skin you alive” in the process. These people have no intention of creating an atmosphere of trust and are simply out to get as much from you as possible. They cannot see that a good deal for both parties could result in many good transactions instead of just one bad transaction.

Avoid the temptation to “get one over” on someone. It is never a good idea to take advantage of someone when they are down. Treat them fairly and they will come back in the future and provide more opportunities for you. It is better to pick the low hanging fruit every year that to cut the tree down in order to get it all.

Again be very wary of someone who offers a deal that is too good to pass up. The property may be stolen, or they may simply be trying to figure out what you have and where you live in order to steal from you. This is a very common tactic used by thieves. I have had it attempted on me several times and I have learned rather quickly to not fall for it.




BUILDING A NETWORK

The most important factor in bartering is to develop a certain trust. Some people need to be reminded somewhat of the virtues of a deal to them, but this must be done with tact. Personally I think this is my greatest limiting factor. I don't cheat people out of anything but I wont be bullied into a deal where I might lose money either.

I always have my ears open so to speak. There is always someone who doesn't have the money to buy groceries this week, or has a car payment that is due tomorrow, or they need a new washing machine, etc.

Social networking sites are also a good place to look. Craigslist is a great place to look. There is always someone with something they want to get rid of. Yahoo also maintains several “groups” devoted to recycling used items and many times you can trade for items or even get items for free.

Once you get a sort of name for yourself, word of mouth will propel you, and the deals will find you. For instance, someone bartered with me to have me remove some computer monitors from their home. I traded for them but what I traded was of very little value and I ended up with a dozen 19-inch monitors for little more than the cost of gas to go pick them up. Nowadays I get a call from this person usually every other month, telling me they need me to come and pick up more monitors... I have traded those monitors for many different things, from a new set of tires for my car, to having my neighbor agree to mow my lawn for the summer for one.

My best deal was for an M1 Garand rifle, a single shot 22LR rifle, a bayonet, and some other items. I traded some items that I basically had nothing invested in and sweetened the deal with a little cash. In the end I traded the bayonet and a few of the smaller items. I ended up with two rifles, one almost new and the other in very good condition for less than 75 dollars. The original owner was very happy with the deal and has approached me about additional trades.

As the local economy gets worse, the people willing to barter has increased. I have seen the number of prospective deals go up ten fold, just in the past 3 months.



BARTERING IN TOUGH TIMES

I know the last thing most people can afford right now is to put money back for buying used items from their neighbors, but if you can do this, you will be able to take advantage of some great deals. So far this year, I have turned down probably 10,000 dollars worth of used guns, coin collections etc because I simply don’t have enough money to take advantage of what is offered.

Bartering now for instance, when the economy is in the dumps is a very good idea. Lots of people are being forced to sell or trade personal items just to pay the bills. IF you have the money or items to trade now, you should definitely consider this.

When people have the money, and are able to pay the bills, they are far less likely to be selling their personal possessions.

During hard economic times, people will be less willing to barter for something and will often want to be paid in cash. Conversely, when the economy is good, they are more willing to trade for things. I say be prepared for both contingencies.



GOOD DEALS

1) Look on craigslist.com for people selling gift cards from places like Lowe’s, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc. The going rate is to sell these cards at a 20% discount. In other words, if it carries a value of 1200 dollars, you would pay 1000 dollars for it. In order to verify authenticity, the seller should meet you at the store and allow you to verify that the card is indeed legitimate, has no expiration, and has the stated amount balance on it.

2) Always buy in bulk. The per unit price drops considerably when you buy in bulk and the extra items you buy can be bartered.

3) Just before deer season is a good time to have guns to trade. Everyone is looking for a good deer rifle and they will often pay or trade more for one. Conversely, just after hunting season ends is a good time to buy used rifles.




PITFALLS TO AVOID

1) Many local police departments seem to love running sting operations, in which they offer a gun for sale and casually mention that it is stolen. If the buyer still completes the transaction they are arrested for receiving stolen property. With regard to guns, if the prospective seller states the gun is stolen or mentions that they have a criminal record, RUN!

2) Be very careful about protecting your privacy. I cannot stress enough that there are people out there who will size you up and do everything they can to find out where your live so they can steal from you. This happens to me probably once a month. Nowadays I can spot these people a mile away and stop them in their tracks. One of the best ways is to ask them their name and let them see you write it down. If they ask why you did that, tell them it helps you remember names and a cop once told you to do this so they would have leads if your house ever got broken into.

3) Don’t get caught up in the thrill of the hunt and make a bad deal. The goal should always be to make a deal that is to your advantage but not so much so that it runs your prospective bartering partners away. I generally try to get something for about 60% to 75% of what I think it is worth.

4) Beware of Sob stories. I bartered with a person several years ago every week. Basically I paid him cash for items or services because he lost his job and had a family to support. One day I discovered that he was spending the money I gave him on beer. After that I would take his wife to the grocery store and buy her a set amount of groceries every week. He tried to protest, but I told him I would not give him money so he could drown his sorrows while his kids went hungry.

5) Never take anyone at his or her word. Very few people will not embellish their story to make their situation look a certain way. Convicted criminals will almost always tell you they are innocent. People looking to barter will always say their item is worth more than the next item even though they are exactly alike, or give you some spectacular (but still plausible) story about why they have to have a certain price. Don’t fall for it. The best way to do this is go into every deal expecting to be lied to. Think hard about what you will offer and do not budge. If they protest, tell them that’s all you can spend and turn to walk away. Many times they will go through with the deal when they see you will not be pushed around. If they don’t, just walk away from the deal. It is far better to walk away from a bad deal than to go ahead with it.
 

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Scarred for life...
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
As far as bartering skills I have not had a lot of luck with that yet.

I have done just one trade where I paid by performing a service. Basically it was a very minor electrical problem with a clothes dryer.

I regularly barter with my neighbor to have him mow the lawn in the summer.


If anybody has any specific ideas to add please post them. thanks.
 

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I do this quite a bit with one "family" I'm very close to.

Latest example: They needed someone to ride out to the store and pick some things up, and they had enough money for the stuff, but not the gas. I happened to have filled up that day so I took care of it, and they sent down a plate of dinner. (It was grilled pork chops, potatoes, and veggies, and I had enough left over for lunch the next day.)

Next example: I'm going to gather up all my pecans and trade them for a spaghetti squash -- maybe two if I get enough pecans. :)

Other examples: I gave them the leftover tile from my bathroom remodel and they're going to paint a room for me. I helped re-arrange their living room, they helped me do a massive load of dishes. I hosted a baby shower for them, they cleaned the whole house top to bottom before AND after. We all went camping together so I brought extra camp materials to use as their stuff was old and busted, and they gave extra money towards covering my portion of the food needed. They're going to help me build a storage room in my garage, and I'm going to help them with their roof on their house.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There are several books that would be valuable to gauge the value of items for trade...

The Blue Book of Gun Values

How to Buy and Sell Used Guns

Guide Book of United States Coins

etc.
 

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I think that bartering in the near future will also be seen in supermarkets between customers.
The other day my mum wanted to buy zucchini, but they only had orgainic packs of four. Each zucchini was about 4 to 5 inches long and it was $4.50. There was a guy looking at the zucchini and he muttered that he wanted only one normal size zucchini, not four tiny ones and spend a heap on. So my mum said lets split, So they went to the check-out, the guy paid for the pack, then my mum gave the guy $2.25 and took 2 zucchinis. And every one was happy. I think that this will become a more common occurance in the future. Here in australia i have noticed that this year they are bagging a lot of the fruit and veg. Before it was like potatos, apples, but now it's tomatoes, broccoli, carrots etc. They still do have a bit of fruit/veg loose, but it seems half the stuff is already pre-bag. They say it's for hygiene resons, but more like profit reasons, it you need carrots, but only need a couple, too bad, you have a to buy a bag with a dozen in it.
 

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I've posted about the need for skills relating to sales and negotiation before, unfortunately some tard took what I said and tried to make me look bad with it, problem was it just made him look more like an idjit.

So here again, relating to NEGOTIATING for items be it now or after the fact-

It's important to get some practice as Countryboy is doing. Most folks will show way too much emotion and/or physical signs that to a good salesman will give away there wants regarding what's being negotiated for.

Herb Cohen, a renown negotiator has a saying- "I care... but not that much!"

In other words, sure I'd like to get the deal done, but if we don't, ahhh that's no big deal! More so than anything else, you need to learn to convey that in any negotiation.

Think about it- your at a gunshow, you spot a Phase Plasma Rifle in a 40 watt range, something you've always wanted ;) so you run up to the guys table, start "ooooooh and aaahhhh" basically drooling over the thing. Is he going to be receptive to taking any less than full boat for it from you? Course not. Why? Cause you've already projected how much you want the item.

There are lots of non-verbal ques a seller can pick up also that indicate you are ready to buy or very interested in the product. If it's something that they can put in your hands a salesman should get it into your hands. This mentally changes your perspective to "I OWN this" item. Same reason a car dealership will have you test drive cars, they want you to identify yourself with owning that car.

A couple of decent books on sales and negotiation are almost as important in your library as your armorer's manuals for your weapons.

Keep in mind these skills cross over to many aspects of what we do, not just to bartering. If your so inclined, you may be talking to others in your community after the fact regarding setting up a security network, etc. They will have to be "sold" on the IDEA of doing this, why it would benefit them, etc.

Regarding that, with selling you always sell the benefits- i.e, in the above example (just an example) you would sell the benefits of a safer area for everyone.

Not that I think doing any of that would work long term without a LOT of prior preparations, but I realize some do think it would, if so you have to be prepared to sell it to your neighbors, most are not going to line up for watch duty :xeye:

Selling and negotiating skills are very important in the overall scheme of life both now and in the PAW.

I went through Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University a few years ago, I was happy to see them devoting a chapter to sales resistance. Dave went over some common sales methods and then some good negotiation skills in order for folks to get good deals.

Lowdown3
 

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If you have a network that works for you that’s perfect.
I wouldn’t count much on bartering because, other than some nice transactions here and there, some people happy with one item or another. ( trade some of my eggs for the tomatoes the guy down the street has) as a steady form of commerce, bartering has historically failed miserably.
Reason why every culture uses some form of currency, and have been doing so for thousands of years.
1) People that need something generally don’t need what the other one is offering for trade
2) It’s very hard to come to an agreement regarding how much one thing or service is worth ( see how you already start including a fictional for of equivalency, you can’t avoid it)
How much are a pair of shoes worth, how many eggs, how many nails, how many therapy sessions or doctor visits?

How many tomatoes do you need to pay your kids orthodontists.

No, I’ll take a recognizable currency, thanks.

Unlike some smarta$$ that considers himself the owner of truth( and the $$ does have a double meaning) , I’ve seen with my own eyes how barter ultimately fails in the short run as a sustainable for of commerce and economical transactions.

I’d also be extra careful about such advice given away by a certain “tard”, that is actually very smart, preaching the end of the world and a fantasy world of barter, but himself readily accepting paypal or Mastercard instead.:rolleyes:

I wrote a bit in my blog the other day about the improvised markets we have here, http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/11/blackgray-markets.html

I’m sure these are much more likely than any sustainable barter market.
Actually, many of these started out as barter markets, but soon the problems were too many and they went back to paper money.
FerFAL
 

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There is a spin off of freecycle here called the rading post, I just traded my son's bunkbeds for a brand new double bed and boxspring, traded an air filter for some new in the box barbies for my dauhter for christmas....I have been selling a lot of stuff too to liquidate and simpliy my life.

EXCELLENT post
 

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There is a spin off of freecycle here called the rading post, I just traded my son's bunkbeds for a brand new double bed and boxspring, traded an air filter for some new in the box barbies for my dauhter for christmas....I have been selling a lot of stuff too to liquidate and simpliy my life.

EXCELLENT post
That's smart, turning stuff you have around the house just bothering you into money or things you need :thumb:

The process of bargaining and haggling is an art form all by itself.
I’ve been made very nice discounts just by not looking that interested and saying “nice, but not exactly what I’m looking for, I’ll look around a bit more and come back later, ok?” which in the vendors mind translates into “ this guy is never coming back”. And it’s probably true. In markets like the one in my blog post, you look around a lot, and end up with the best price.

You don’t want to offend the vendor by being a jerk either, but you do want to offer like ½ or ¾ of the asking price, which is usually ridiculously high.
What I do is look a bit surprised and offended “ Sorry dude, not the kind of money I had in mind” and turn to walk away. The vendor will usually say something before you leave.
When haggling for more serious money, like a car repair, I’ll say “Guess I’ll have to wait until next month… unless you could find a way to lower that number a bit more” Just that way I got to pay HALF of the asking price of a repair I had done to my car last week.
I checked later with other people and they all were surprised of how little I ended up paying.

Ask a lot, look like a cautious buyer, not like a 5 year old buying candy.

I bought a present for my wife the other day, an antique gold reliquary shaped like a hear. The first price was ridiculous, just smiling at the guy in a please don’t try to screw with me fashion set the price in the right direction.
I noticed a small part was a bit bent, the frame that would hold one of the pictures. “Really nice, but look, this will need repair, no ones gonna do it for less than x amount of money. If you drop x amount for the repair we have a deal”. The guy agreed right away.

FerFAL
 

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Which civilization used gold as a means of currency since the fall of the Roman Empire? Please provide supporting data.

No I don't mean "gold BACKED" as ours used to be in the long long ago. I mean trading gold. Like actually one person trading a piece of gold or gold coin as currency.

The OP was about SKILLS relating to barter- i.e, selling skills, negotiating, etc. I guess that was missed??? :xeye:

"Preaching the end of the world".... No proof still of that huh? Folks have seen who provides documentation and who doesn't ;)
 

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Do a lot of bartering myself and buy and sell a lot of used stuff on our local 'craigs list' type sites. I'm not into the security as much as you are, guess I'm putting more faith in me fellow man, that not everyone is a thief.
 

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Overlordsshadow not everyone is a thief, it's just that one or two that are will get you every time. And I don't like to give away my stuff.
 

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Do a lot of bartering myself and buy and sell a lot of used stuff on our local 'craigs list' type sites. I'm not into the security as much as you are, guess I'm putting more faith in me fellow man, that not everyone is a thief.
Kind of complicated. Even though most people are still good folks, the ones that aren’t will take advantage of you if you don’t prepare for the worst possible situation.

Security is a serious concern, if you go around trusting on always encountering a person that is soon out there to take advantage of you, sooner or later someone will.

FerFAL
 

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Folks have seen who provides documentation and who doesn't ;)
Documentation? You ask for documentation whenever I post anything.
Yes sure, post a copy of your internet forum police badge and I’ll provide all the documentation your require.

While you do that, post about your real world experience with barter and trade after an economical collapse. I like reality vs BS suppositions myself.

Don’t worry, I’ll back off so you can continue to scare people a bit more, “creating the need” like you said.
I don’t think that’s a morally correct marketing strategy, but just do whatever you feel is right.
Tell people that if they stay in the cities they will all die.

I wrote a lot about the importance of precious metals and how they work after SHTF in my blog. No need to write it again.

FerFAL
 

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Documentation? You ask for documentation whenever I post anything.
Yes sure, post a copy of your internet forum police badge and I’ll provide all the documentation your require.

While you do that, post about your real world experience with barter and trade after an economical collapse. I like reality vs BS suppositions myself.

Don’t worry, I’ll back off so you can continue to scare people a bit more, “creating the need” like you said.
I don’t think that’s a morally correct marketing strategy, but just do whatever you feel is right.
Tell people that if they stay in the cities they will all die.

I wrote a lot about the importance of precious metals and how they work after SHTF in my blog. No need to write it again.

FerFAL

I think YOU more than understood my point about documentation mi amigo! :thumb:

Yep I'm "scaring" people teaching them negotitating skills :rolleyes: Right "creating the need"- Wanna take some more stuff out of CONTEXT and try to use it again? Seriously, go ahead, it just makes you look stupid :D:

3 now working on 4 right?

Please show me where I've ever said we were fixing to face TEOTWAWKI, can't? Of course not. What did I say about documenting things?

Let it go bro..... :)
 

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Lets see… actually no, I don’t understand your point.

I wasted some valuable seconds of my life reading your blog.
It’s kind of sad. Silly stuff you write like this:

“You cannot be the one prepared person amongst hordes of system dependent people, it just will not work.”
Sure, moving out of town will put you in a parallel universe where people simply dissapear…

“Don't kid yourself and think you will be the only family on the block that's well fed and no one will notice”.
.. wake up to the sound of your windows being broke in and 50 people demanding you feed them. Don't kid yourself, it WILL happen.”…
if you say so...:rolleyes:
“Better have extra weapons, ammunition and field gear for those who you think will help you "defend" your subdivision cause THEY WILL NOT.”
Wait a second there Patrick Swayze, So you are going to arm people that don’t own weapons themselves? Which means you are arming people that lack the mindset to own a firearm in the first place, and have no experience with guns?
Yes, that might work ...in your personal dreams. In the real world that is a disaster waiting to happen.

How do you come up with all this 13 year old non sense? All your suppositions, your fantasies. Is it TV? The influence "Red Down" hand on you , like you once said?
I ask again, what real world experience do you have regarding these crisis you talk about like some kind of expert?
I have my real world experience. I shared it with a guy from Russia that wrote about his own, and a couple guys from South Africa. We all saw a surprising amount of similarities.
Since you call BS on everything I write, where’s your real world experience regarding the things you talk about?
Edited to add:

I read even more of your terribly mistaken barter list, you are so wrong about nearly everything it’s simply pathetic.
I just hope people out there that are trying to prepare for real ignore your ill advice.
Unlike you I’ve been to barter clubs after the economy crashed completely.
You know what item was in highest demand?
The one I had in my pocket and everyone was very willing to make a deal in exchange for it:
MONEY!
But “Cash is king” wasn’t good enough for you.
I’m not going to make fun of all the foolish things you wrote, would take an entire lifetime. Ok maybe just one little quote from your writings..
"Dogs will be worth there weight in gold."
-Lowdown3
:headshake: :rofl:
I rest my case, your honor.

FerFAL
 

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Lets see… actually no, I don’t understand your point.

I wasted some valuable seconds of my life reading your blog.
It’s kind of sad. Silly stuff you write like this:



Sure, moving out of town will put you in a parallel universe where people simply dissapear…


if you say so...:rolleyes:

Wait a second there Patrick Swayze, So you are going to arm people that don’t own weapons themselves? Which means you are arming people that lack the mindset to own a firearm in the first place, and have no experience with guns?
Yes, that might work ...in your personal dreams. In the real world that is a disaster waiting to happen.

How do you come up with all this 13 year old non sense? All your suppositions, your fantasies. Is it TV? The influence "Red Down" hand on you , like you once said?
I ask again, what real world experience do you have regarding these crisis you talk about like some kind of expert?
I have my real world experience. I shared it with a guy from Russia that wrote about his own, and a couple guys from South Africa. We all saw a surprising amount of similarities.
Since you call BS on everything I write, where’s your real world experience regarding the things you talk about?
Edited to add:

I read even more of your terribly mistaken barter list, you are so wrong about nearly everything it’s simply pathetic.
I just hope people out there that are trying to prepare for real ignore your ill advice.
Unlike you I’ve been to barter clubs after the economy crashed completely.
You know what item was in highest demand?
The one I had in my pocket and everyone was very willing to make a deal in exchange for it:
MONEY!
But “Cash is king” wasn’t good enough for you.
I’m not going to make fun of all the foolish things you wrote, would take an entire lifetime. Ok maybe just one little quote from your writings..

:headshake: :rofl:
I rest my case, your honor.

FerFAL

Wow, more stuff out of context. No surprises there.

Let's see, you tell people that they'll be ok in the cities, but your VERY OWN little stories explain that you were NOT OK in the cities with all your little harrowing stories about lack of food (Real survivalists have food storage). Let me track your timeline of lies here- First off in 2005 when you first came on the scene you wrote-

"Ideally you already have a food plan and have a year worth of food in your basement… You don’t? hmm… neither did I when the SHTF and lets just say that I had my manhood up my throat all the time, fearing that supermarkets would definitely close and me and my family would be left without food. If you don’t have your food needs sorted out already, just do what I did; start buying a little extra every time you go to the supermarket. The points you want to look for your storage food are, in order of importance:"-Ferfal


So there you make it abundantly clear that you had no food when as you say "SHTF".

I've made it very clear for the 22 years I've been around that food storage is VERY important- one of the reasons I've authored numerous articles about it as well as a set of videos showing people how to pack there food for long term storage and thereby SAVE money versus buying it from commercial sources. Point- Ferfal says I try to "scare" people, but he thinks actually preparing (not just talking about it as he does) is being scared. But then again, he believes and stated on this very board that the government will take care of you-

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=26983

"Where do you think the gov. will concentrate the efforts the most? Ensure health and security? They do it in the greatest point of population."-Ferfal


You see, where you and I as survivalists accept some RESPONSIBILITY for our own lives and the lives of our families, Ferfal makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR that he expects the government to "ensure health and security." We have a label for that sort of thinking in this movement, and that word is SHEEPLE.
He would continue to imply in that thread that riots in your town were NOT a big deal and were NO REASON to bug out or otherwise get your family to a safe area-

"Riots, looting ? You stay home, bug in, order is eventually restored and you are expected to sohw up to work the next day"- Ferfal

So when you have followed Ferfal's advice and stayed in the city with your 2 cases of beanie weenies and riots are engulfing your neighborhood, just "stay home", lock the door and hope for for the government that "ensures health and security" to ensure YOUR health and security. Ask a guy named REGINALD DENNY (sp? Guy that got pulled out of his truck and beat down with a brick in the LA riots) how that worked out for him....

Barter and trade? I can go back and show how many times you flip flopped on that.

I mean seriously, I expect that if things get bad, your idea of people trading JUNK JEWELRY will really go far- LMAO


http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/showthread.php?t=163938

"Gold and Silver did hold their value of course, but they are not used to buy goods and services, besides, displaying a gold coin in a public market is as good as committing suicide."-Ferfal

Wait a tick! I thought gold was good for trading, you stated that before. Are you on "flip" or "flop" on this one? Go ahead and flip a coin and tell me where you stand on this TODAY.

Here's some more-

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=010573#000000

"Living in a large urban environment. Major SHTF event requires me to bug out of the city" -Ferfal

Since Ferfal claimed that things are so bad down there, and he has NOT bugged out as he SAID HE WOULD- only ONE of the two following choices could be true-

1. It either isn't that bad down there now or
2. Your completely full of it and never planned any further than maybe having your MAID defend your apartment for you.

Or maybe it's your standard "the government will ensure health and security" way of thinking :rolleyes:

Back to the food storage issue-

So first you ADMITTED not having any food in storage (see above with LINK for documentation), then later you would state that

"you can always buy food"


Then just early last month on your little free blogsite you stated-

"Food being at the top of your needs SHTF or not, I’ve always advised to keep 6-12 months for emergencies.-Ferfal" from Oct 2, survivingargentina

What a tick! "top of your needs SHTF or not.." did I hear that correctly? So if food is "at the top of your needs" that would make it a good potential barter item as I've stated for years, including in an article of mine American Survival Guide magazine published in November of 1996? ANY bartering depends on security issues first and foremost.

So if food is "top of your needs SHTF or not..." as you've stated Ferfal, why do you put so much emphasis on gold and not actually getting physically prepared? Yes I know you stated that "you can always buy food"
but YOUR REALITY when you posted that you could not buy food showed this not to be true. :xeye:

"“Don't kid yourself and think you will be the only family on the block that's well fed and no one will notice”.
.. wake up to the sound of your windows being broke in and 50 people demanding you feed them. Don't kid yourself, it WILL happen.”…

Yes I wrote this, course he's taking everything I wrote here out of context. To explain- I was describing the inherent dangers in ferfal type half a$$ed measures wherein you think you'll be ok living amongst hundreds of thousands of unprepared people. The equation is simple- less people around= less potential for problems. Did I say "no potential for problems?" NO I said "LESS" potential for problems. And figuring that out is simply a function of MATH.

And survival is all about negating risks. Like for example moving out of an area where (supposedly) your family is put in constant risk due to muggings (Ferfal posted that his wife was mugged where they live and I feel bad for that. I wish he would take HIS OWN advice and get his family to safety!), due to food shortages (Ferfal posted on Glocktalk that they had problems finding food-

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857533
"Last week I explained to him what the reporter was talking about, the lack of food supply in supermarkets.
The following day when I came back from work he ran to me and said “ Daddy! Daddy! Remember the guy on tv last night? He was right! We went to the supermarket today with mommy and there was no meat, fruits or milk!”
"Supermarkets have no meat or milk left, same for vegetables and other basic food items." Ferfal



Now the great advice Ferfal gave on this board regarding what to do when a riot was engulfing your neighborhood-

"Riots, looting ? You stay home, bug in, order is eventually restored and you are expected to sohw up to work the next day"- Ferfal

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=26983

Combined with his statement that the government will "ensure health and security" in that same thread, shows you where Ferfal's thinking is- why prepare, the gubmint will bail Ferfal out! He's made that ABUNDANTLY CLEAR.

To continue on the "gold will save you" theory you expose- Do tell me this, the guys that bought gold at $1,000. an ounce here within the last year, what are they to do RIGHT NOW if they need supplies? Let's see, they could sell it at

11/12 Gold close- Gold $719.90

and take almost a $300.00 LOSS on it to buy food and such they should have bought FIRST.

Is that what you did when you couldn't find food in the grocery stores? You already ADMITTED not having food storage.

But what a second, you say to sell your gold and then buy what you need in an economic collapse. But you've stated that with inflation the currency is next to worthless in an economic collapse, certainly that isn't the best time to get out of gold and into paper dollars is it? Could you clear this point up for people, it's another point of yours that isn't very CLEAR.


OK, other thing you took out of context was the arming your neighbors bit- see this why I POST LINKS so people can research the DOCUMENTATION themselves. You don't seem to do that. Why? Because people would see how out of context you take stuff with your "slice and dice and make up a story" routine. Folks need to go no further than THIS SITE and click on my nickname above- see all posts. Now scroll till you see a reply to a thread a few weeks ago relating to "community" preparations. I've always been the one that advised AGAINST arming your neighbors, yet people like Ferfal want you to believe you can do things like that instead of actually getting away from the cities and be o.k. The point that Ferfal took out of context was that if folks THOUGHT they would arm there neighbors they better FIRST have a plan to FEED THEM. I've said numerous times "Don't arm them if you can't feed them."

If you read some of my posts, even some of my older articles, you can see a lot of the same ideas Ferfal is now talking about on his blog. Let's see, I've been writing since 1993, published in American Survival Guide Magazine, had a shortwave radio show for 2 years talking about preparedness subjects and had my current blog site since 2005. Ferfal showed up on the scene in 2005, people read his stories for a while, gave his a lot of praise and glory (which went to his head). People soon forgot about him (Ferfal didn't take this too well) when he had nothing else to offer. Like the teenage drama queen that just craves the spotlight so much Ferfal tried to re-invent himself as a "preparedness expert" and basically regurgitated Mel Tappan's ideas as well as some other people's ideas. People started calling him out for that. Ferfal would begin attacking people because of this. Kicked out of one forum after another (3 now working on the 4th) Ferfal tried to get back into the limelight by posting his "harrowing tales" of food shortages, muggings, etc. basically telling people TS was still HTF down there 7 years after the problems they had. The Quandary for Ferfal was that even though his little stories got him attention (he craves that) they also PROVED HIS SURVIVAL PLANNING ALL WRONG.

See he says you'll do o.k. in the cities, but then he posts how his family experiences food shortages, muggings, near death shootouts (this isn't counting the teenager next door Ferfal wanted to KILL because of there loud party they had next door :eek: Yeah, he's a real stable guy). His very postings of these happenings PROVE his "planning" to be bogus!

I tried to get you to let it go bro. You've slandered me and attacked me 4 times now, each time it blowing up in your face. I've only DEFENDED MYSELF to you, you've done all the attacking.....

How many times do you pull someone back from walking into the middle of a busy street when they keep doing it over and over again??? At one point do you stop trying to warn them?

I say again, let it go bro.

Lowdown3
 

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Yes, my experience is still based on reality, yours is not.

I mean seriously, I expect that if things get bad, your idea of people trading JUNK JEWELRY will really go far- LMAO
Oh, you “LMAO”. :rolleyes:
You "expect".
I don’t “expect” anything. Unlike you, I’ve seen it happen.

And yes, people would drop by a market and sell JUNK JEWELRY to a gold dealer, get the equivalent purchasing power in paper currency(an ounce of gold still buys you the same amount of stuff it did 2000 years ago!) and take such paper currency, 100 bucks, 1000 , 1000000 if devaluation is bad enough, doesn’t matter, that piece of gold still buys you the same amount of stuff.

You see, where you and I as survivalists accept some RESPONSIBILITY for our own lives
You and I ? Hold your horses, pal, there’s no you and I.
I’m nothing like you, thank God.

So you see, the difference between you and me is that you “expect” “suppose” “imagine” “estimate” a lot, while on the other hand I “know” and “saw”.

I went through a crisis. Other’s in totally different parts of the world have experienced likewise when their societies had a given crisis. A few differences, but a surprising amount of similarities.

You? You have no idea. But the worst thing about you is your denial.
You are unwilling to modify your attitude.
You dont care about reality, you still prefer your suppositions and guesses.

Given that you obviously have interest regarding survival and preparedness, ( or at least interest in selling people stuff for it) you really should listen to someone that’s been there and done that, instead of busting my balls, insult me, and make me waste my time.

Do me a favor, just tell me about your real world experience with an economical and social brake down?


FerFAL
 

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Which civilization used gold as a means of currency since the fall of the Roman Empire? Please provide supporting data.

No I don't mean "gold BACKED" as ours used to be in the long long ago. I mean trading gold. Like actually one person trading a piece of gold or gold coin as currency.

The OP was about SKILLS relating to barter- i.e, selling skills, negotiating, etc. I guess that was missed??? :xeye:

"Preaching the end of the world".... No proof still of that huh? Folks have seen who provides documentation and who doesn't ;)
During the gold rush in this country (only about 200 years ago) the miners used gold to buy stuff and the shopkeepers and saloon keepers all got rich. Google the phrase 'How much can you raise in a pinch? Gold miners came in to saloons and bought drinks with gold dust. Saloon keepers wanted big guys that could get the most amount of gold dust in one pinch. So the answer to your question would be this american civilization used gold as a currency not too long ago. :D:
 

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Lowdown, Ferfal...guys, PLEASE!
C'mon, everybody knows there is bad blood of a type between you two.
Can't you just agree to disagree and give it a rest!?
I have gotten scads of good info from BOTH of you on your blogs and on various forums...but this bickering...jeeeeze!:eek:

Ferfal, you have to realize that the people here in the US that are into preparedness--for the most part--know, yes, that's right, KNOW that being in a city during SHTF is absolutely the WORST place to be. If you had ever lived through a blizzard in a major American city, or a power blackout during a heat wave in Chicago, or a hurricane like Katrina, Rita or Ike, you would agree, trust me on that. In very small towns, rural communities or farms way out in the *boonies* with only a few neighbors, you would be much better off. Also, Americans know the three biggest lies ever told are "The check is in the mail, I can keep a secret and I am from the government, I'm here to help you.":rolleyes: Our government will happily strip us of our guns, our supplies, everything they can get their hands on during an emergency under the pretense of *the public good* or *safety and security*. They have done it in the past, they will do it again. Lowdown has seen this and writes from HIS perspective.

Lowdown, YOU have to realize, Ferfal is in another country and is writing from his perspective. Things are different there. He has never lived in an American inner city, nor near one. His climate is different, the culture of the people there is different. And yes, he is younger and less experienced than you. BUT---he HAS lived through some pretty hairy situations in Argentina and those experiences we can all learn from! From what I have read on his blog and elsewhere on forums, the political climate in his country has been pretty chaotic the past few years. By reading his observations on that, it may be somewhat predictive as to what could happen here when our government goes belly up. Why not find things on his blog or in his posts you agree with and let him know which ones are fairly accurate and/or germane to the US?

Personally, I think the two of you ought to get together over a couple of beers.
Better yet, he should visit you for a week and then you should visit him for a week so you can both see where the other is coming from!

Now...as the Eagles song says..."Get over it!"
 
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