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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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Awesome. I heard the shrimp a lot through the hull of my sailboat. Noisy little beggars. Amazing how well sound travels through water. If I was down below, It was amazing the detailed sound of the different propellers running around.
 

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Wrong Side of Heaven
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Sorry for the thread derail everyone I will put bubble head away if needed or mod delegate as necessary no worries

Awesome. I heard the shrimp a lot through the hull of my sailboat. Noisy little beggars. Amazing how well sound travels through water. If I was down below, It was amazing the detailed sound of the different propellers running around.
Now imagine being able to remove all signal other than what you are listening to within tenths of a degree. My info is over 30 years ago I cant imagine what they play with today. I would like to do a dependents cruise and do a gear check. We were able to audibly able to hear how many screws were on a ship, the number of blades, count them and determine speed based on turns per min. Then they got a paper chart to do it. On large ships they actually turn slower than you would think.
 

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A little bit of conflict like this could be all China's waiting for:


Belarus is allowing tens of thousands to come in and try to run the border into Poland. Poland has a long history of fighting Muslims, and keeping them out of Europe. It wasn't the Austrians at the gates of Vienna that stopped the Ottomans, it was the Polish Cavalry.
 

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Sorry for the thread derail everyone I will put bubble head away if needed or mod delegate as necessary no worries



Now imagine being able to remove all signal other than what you are listening to within tenths of a degree. My info is over 30 years ago I cant imagine what they play with today. I would like to do a dependents cruise and do a gear check. We were able to audibly able to hear how many screws were on a ship, the number of blades, count them and determine speed based on turns per min. Then they got a paper chart to do it. On large ships they actually turn slower than you would think.
Would it even matter ?
Nothing was reported about hearing anything about MAS flight 317 on the KUL - PEK route.
Much was heard about the loss of MAS flight 17 on the AMS - TLV route. It was lost over Ukraine.
"They" gave the message that they now control the civil aviation sky over continental Europe.

Would it even matter if a new (pending) Aussie sub was completely quiet ? Any damage done anywhere by the sub would have a quid quo pro ... don't know about portionality ... and mosquito repellant and head nets would become scarce.
 

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Assuming enough of the Chinese survived the exchange, and I could see them doing what the West did starting in the 1600's. (I count Russia as part of the West, they also took large land areas from indiginous groups.) Europe starting sending a lot of people to de-populated places all over the world. In some instances doing the de-population in the process, but overall colonizing 1/2 of the planet or more.

AU is on the target list, no matter who is nuking the US. China would be there in no time for the mineral resources.
 

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It is possible that China and the other bad actors know that if they can beat down the American public long enough - we will not want to engage in any war or skirmish.
Some say we could have done more in every event/war/fight since WWII but politicians and lack of American will or interest limited our forces. I have heard that TV changed the minds of many about Vietnam. Politicians didn’t offer much help either from my understanding. Our fighters were doing great and did great. That is not the message here. All those that serves and have served have my utmost respect. I am more trying to point out that we the American people don’t want any kind of war what so ever.

If things keep getting worse and more division amongst ourselves then we will desire to help even less.

It is possible we are behind on some of the new generation war tactics. We still have military might and decades of battle knowledge. We do not have cyber warfare knowledge or near the resources to deal with it. Heck, I believe we are still behind on a lot of the world in terms of old fashion espionage. We still create and produce the finest in the world but we need to shift focus. We aren’t the worst but we should again be the best if we plan to move forward with any real momentum.

To link this back to Taiwan. I believe we rely too heavily on our ships in the South China Sea as the ultimate deterrent. Bad actors over there mess with our power grid and shipping chains. They never have to leave a desk. We want to intimidate we have to move thousands of people costing millions in movement on a ship/planes that cost billions.

As someone else mentioned :
There are some similarities to WWII and how we are less superpower and more about isolation (more isolated than we have been in the past 50-60 years).
Economic downturn and people hurting financially it will look a lot like WWII conditions again.
Would that lead to a new world war? Can’t say. Russia would be more directly involved now but Japan less involved at the start. China as the new Nazi germany? Are we British fighting the early fight? Who would be late comer America?

I am afraid we are falling behind the curve of modern warfare.
 

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Over and Out
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...We do not have cyber warfare knowledge or near the resources to deal with it. Heck, I believe we are still behind on a lot of the world in terms of old fashion espionage....
Can agree with much of what ya say, here, but.. On This point ^ ehh.. 'Stuxnet' was pretty badass, actually.. (and, yeah - it Was 'our Alphabet-soup', ya'll likely Know 'which ones'..)

..but IF the ABCs would Just Stop Phreaking-around 'looking inward' (at, ya know, all the 1/6 "insurrectionists" and Tyrannical School-Board-challenging "terrorist" Parents :rolleyes: and 'Right Wing White Supremist Extremist Anti-Vaxxers' and their 'hate speech FB-posts', etc..) This Nation could really kick some Serious Cyber-ass.. :cool:

We've got Plenty of Smarts / Plenty of Tech, and some Serious 'Mr Robots', herein, but.. 99.9% of it is 'pointed in the Wrong Bloody Direction'.. :mad:

..The 'Problem', is this so-called "leadership"... With this current 'Milli-Vanilli Administration', and increasingly 'wobbly-installs' into the Mil-brass, happening (ie: 'Rear-end Admiral Levine', there, et al :rolleyes: ) all we're likely to be able to accomplish, relative to 'saving Taiwan', is ending up with some Grade A 'Meme-fodder', just like we watched happen with the 'Afghastistan CF'.. :mad:

.02
jd
 

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Can agree with much of what ya say, here, but.. On This point ^ ehh.. 'Stuxnet' was pretty badass, actually.. (and, yeah - it Was 'our Alphabet-soup', ya'll likely Know 'which ones'..)

..but IF the ABCs would Just Stop Phreaking-around 'looking inward' (at, ya know, all the 1/6 "insurrectionists" and Tyrannical School-Board-challenging "terrorist" Parents :rolleyes: and 'Right Wing White Supremist Extremist Anti-Vaxxers' and their 'hate speech FB-posts', etc..) This Nation could really kick some Serious Cyber-ass.. :cool:

We've got Plenty of Smarts / Plenty of Tech, and some Serious 'Mr Robots', herein, but.. 99.9% of it is 'pointed in the Wrong Bloody Direction'.. :mad:

..The 'Problem', is this so-called "leadership"... With this current 'Milli-Vanilli Administration', and increasingly 'wobbly-installs' into the Mil-brass, happening (ie: 'Rear-end Admiral Levine', there, et al :rolleyes: ) all we're likely to be able to accomplish, relative to 'saving Taiwan', is ending up with some Grade A 'Meme-fodder', just like we watched happen with the 'Afghastistan CF'.. :mad:

.02
jd
Totally agree!
I thought of Stuxnet while I was typing all that … however I would be willing to bet that was either an Israeli developed program. I’m not smart enough to guess if someone could have used that program as a reworked malware.
I believe that what I understand of stuxnet was brilliant and well orchestrated. It really hampered their production and we avoided a direct war. I believe that same idea could be used in this pseudo Cold War with China. Ultimately, everything boils down to more and gaining power. The path our leaders decide is most likely decided by these factors
 

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So if China takes Taiwan, the US can simply stop paying debt service to China, destroy China's economy with embargoes and sanctions (likely joined by most in the West along with Japan and Korea).

Basically, just because China wants Taiwan and may have the military capability to take it, are they willing to face the economic destruction they will incur thereafter?
 

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Or just freeze all assets owned by China and her citizens. Use the cash to "pay" down the debt. Sell all assets as well; this will also have the impact of lowering real estate prices in key areas.

But that would be a world-changer. Most Americans don't care about some little island in the Pacific. Media/celebs are china-owned, so other than Japan/India/Australia/Philippines doing something, I'm not sure we'd even bother. Sure, Chamberlain would fly over and get a paper signed, but I don't expect more than that.
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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China depends upon the sea lanes and overland routes being open to survive.

They militarized the S China Sea to secure at least 1 shipping route if things go bad. Their "Belt and Road" project I think is another attempt to keep an importation route open.


Cutting off their trade routes would be an effective way to counter China aggression.

There are a lot of countries that have pledged to defend Taiwan, and I believe the US is one of them. Vietnam, India, S Korea, Japan, Australia, The UK I think are some of the others.
Not sure what the Philippines would do.
 

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Grevcon 10
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Discussion Starter · #733 ·
So if China takes Taiwan, the US can simply stop paying debt service to China, destroy China's economy with embargoes and sanctions (likely joined by most in the West along with Japan and Korea).

Basically, just because China wants Taiwan and may have the military capability to take it, are they willing to face the economic destruction they will incur thereafter?
The US has no industry left. China suffers no real damage from a loss of US money. It's a communist central economy. They can retract to deal in real goods with no regard to money at any time. They have the entire rest of the world to sell to as well. The US suffers both financial market damage and real damage in that it rapidly runs out of resources and goods. The US isn't even in a strong financial situation anymore. This isn't the 70s where the US has all the money and the CCP has nothing but starving impoverished potential workers. China has bled the US dry of a lot of if not the clear majority of its money. In this case the US must sue for peace long before the CCP.
 

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D. Gibbons is a bad man
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A little bit of conflict like this could be all China's waiting for:


Belarus is allowing tens of thousands to come in and try to run the border into Poland. Poland has a long history of fighting Muslims, and keeping them out of Europe. It wasn't the Austrians at the gates of Vienna that stopped the Ottomans, it was the Polish Cavalry.
Odd as Poland is home to Lipka Tartar Muslims who also fought against the Ottomans. Obviously not as as successful at keeping out Muslims as you thought they were.
 

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Odd as Poland is home to Lipka Tartar Muslims who also fought against the Ottomans. Obviously not as as successful at keeping out Muslims as you thought they were.
Bit of a difference between being overrun and inviting settlers. Poland saw value in skilled tradesmen, guessing the Lipkas saw a possible better life. First wave was not Muslim, wasn't until latter settlers arrived that they brought Island with them. Tartars had a very long history of fighting each other, Russians and Ottomans.
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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The US has no industry left. China suffers no real damage from a loss of US money. It's a communist central economy. They can retract to deal in real goods with no regard to money at any time. They have the entire rest of the world to sell to as well. The US suffers both financial market damage and real damage in that it rapidly runs out of resources and goods. The US isn't even in a strong financial situation anymore. This isn't the 70s where the US has all the money and the CCP has nothing but starving impoverished potential workers. China has bled the US dry of a lot of if not the clear majority of its money. In this case the US must sue for peace long before the CCP.
You must be joking.
What do we buy from China that we can't buy from Vietnam, S Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, India, Canada, etc?
 

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You must be joking.
What do we buy from China that we can't buy from Vietnam, S Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, India, Canada, etc?
The US-China import-export trade is only a small segment of agreements.

Boeing China, Inc has obligations (read: USG). If Boeing China, Inc leaves the scene, they can readily go into receivership with possibility of forced bankruptcy (Although when this happed to Lockheed in 1975, USG "helped out"). Massive unemployment must be avoided to the max.

Now, the real big ticket items: soybeans and corn. There are long term trade agreements for these grains to go to buyers in China.

At an AFL-CIO conference, in her initial year as First Lady, Hillary was recorded telling a few of the national labor leaders, the most important utterance she ever made - and sh's made tons -. She was recorded as saying:
"It's hard to threaten your creditor".

I spent a career in oil exploration and a little production in Middle Kingdom. Most all of the real arrangements - can't spell the word but it's term meaning both parties get benefits.

Avoid reading the Washington Post.
 

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So if China takes Taiwan, the US can simply stop paying debt service to China, destroy China's economy with embargoes and sanctions (likely joined by most in the West along with Japan and Korea).

Basically, just because China wants Taiwan and may have the military capability to take it, are they willing to face the economic destruction they will incur thereafter?
Then how do we pay for our own govt? And don't say by cutting spending, that ain't gonna happen.
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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Then how do we pay for our own govt? And don't say by cutting spending, that ain't gonna happen.
China stopped buying US debt a long time ago. The Fed has been buying it's own debt for years now. How that bit of legerdemain happens is anyone's guess.
 

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Wile E Coyote, Genius.
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The US-China import-export trade is only a small segment of agreements.

Boeing China, Inc has obligations (read: USG). If Boeing China, Inc leaves the scene, they can readily go into receivership with possibility of forced bankruptcy (Although when this happed to Lockheed in 1975, USG "helped out"). Massive unemployment must be avoided to the max.

Now, the real big ticket items: soybeans and corn. There are long term trade agreements for these grains to go to buyers in China.

At an AFL-CIO conference, in her initial year as First Lady, Hillary was recorded telling a few of the national labor leaders, the most important utterance she ever made - and sh's made tons -. She was recorded as saying:
"It's hard to threaten your creditor".

I spent a career in oil exploration and a little production in Middle Kingdom. Most all of the real arrangements - can't spell the word but it's term meaning both parties get benefits.

Avoid reading the Washington Post.
Nothing you said changes anything I said.
1) Who cares if china no longer gets its corn and soybeans? If we are at war, starving them is part of the strategy of war.
2) I don't know what Boeing is doing, making planes in China for the US government. Sounds like treason to me, but I would need some details. Educating China how to build a Boeing Airliner constitutes a massive breach of intellectual property. And the US Government would be well advised not to rely on any China made airplanes, for several reasons. Quality issues, and backdoors hidden in the control system. Having a critical USG plane simply drop out of the sky because China sent a kill signal to the controls would sort of endanger the United States.
 
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