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Are the Revelation 12:17 folks a bunch of "Legalists?"

  • Yes...they are stuck in legalism and are stumbling blocks to modern Christians.

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • No...they are faithful Christians who believe in obeying God's Word.

    Votes: 9 90.0%
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Discussion Starter #1
In the Book of Revelation we read:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Above we read about a group of people who "keep the commandments of God." Who here agrees that these are a bunch of "legalists" and that they, by keeping the Commandments, are "causing others to stumble?" Who, on the other hand, believe that these are courageous Christians who are hated by the dragon, in part, because they keep the Commandments?
 
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Good post AJ!

Legalism is trying to EARN salvation by works, apart from grace, apart from Yahshua's sacrifice. Obedience to the commandments is just that...being obedient, with the desperately needed HELP of Yahshua's indwelling Presence. Yes, there are 10 basic ones; none of which are burdensome; all are for our own good. Not legalism at all, just obedience.
 

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we walk by faith not by sight,we keep the commandments by walking by faith,faith fullfills the law,faith works by love and a person walking by love cannot violate the commandments but if we sin we have an advocate with the father in the person of jesus christ...satan is no longer lord over our sin....jesus is.....if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive us.............

we have it all we need only learn to walk in it..............
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Christians, by no means, are saved by keeping the law. We cannot keep the law perfectly but we should strive to keep it perfectly. We are not saved by works but by grace. With the knowledge that we are saved by grace through belief in Jesus Christ should we then ignore God's Law?

James 2:14-26, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

To this day, the Commandments help me in my daily walk. When I feel tempted to do something I should not, the Commandments of God come to mind and remind me that I should not. If I do break one of God's Commandments, I have sinned for sin is the transgression of the Law. When that happens, I ask Christ to forgive me and I embrace a feeling of repentence. Christ does forgive me. That's grace. The Law and Grace are not enemies. They walk hand in hand. They're beneficial to the believer.

The dragon (past, present, and future) is wroth with those who keep the Commandments and who are faithful in Christ. In one sense, Christians are a stumbling block. They are standing in the way of the dragon. Carry on faithful Christians.
 

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The dragon is a common figure in mythology and used the same way around the world.
Our personal, internal struggle is often seen as a fight between the flying eagle and the crawling serpent. The dragon is a serpent who flies, read an adult who has found the balance between the two. The passage is about our internal self relating tothe external world, to society and its rules.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The dragon is a common figure in mythology and used the same way around the world.
Our personal, internal struggle is often seen as a fight between the flying eagle and the crawling serpent. The dragon is a serpent who flies, read an adult who has found the balance between the two. The passage is about our internal self relating tothe external world, to society and its rules.
Regardless of your personal understanding of "the dragon," the point is that he is angry with faithful Christians who keep the Commandments of God.

As the end of this earth age nears, you will see an ever growing attack on the Christian faith and those who proclaim Christ. The ongoing attack upon Christianity comes in waves. Pagan Rome followed by the Romish Church followed the the Bolshevik Communists and Communists ideologists in general. Today's attacks (at least in America) are born of Secular Humanism/Atheism for the most part and the ACLU seems to be at the bottom of most of these attacks.

The dragon has been, is, and will be wroth with the saints.
 

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I guess it depends on your view of Bible prophecy and how you look at dispensations.

But different people at different times had to do different things to stay in a right relationship with God. I would place the time period of the verse with the tribulation period. The woman i believe is Israel and the dragon without a doubt is the devil.

But the devil is never pleased with people that are following what God would want them to do, no matter what dispensation it is.
 
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Regardless of your personal understanding of "the dragon," the point is that he is angry with faithful Christians who keep the Commandments of God.

That is not my personal understanding. That is how the metaphor has been used by a wide variety of cultures for thousands of years. It is called scholarship.

As the end of this earth age nears, you will see ....

Spare me please... we all have heard it thousands of times in our life. That is not discussing religion, that is preaching. The title of this section is Religious Discussion, not Preaching Christianity.

The dragon has been, is, and will be wroth with the saints.
We reconcile ourselves to society.
 

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"Spare me please... we all have heard it thousands of times in our life. That is not discussing religion, that is preaching. The title of this section is Religious Discussion, not Preaching Christianity."

A J gives his opinion and you call it preaching. I believe the THREAD is titled
Are These Christians "Legalists?". You enter every discussion and try to turn it into
an argument. What is your problem anyway? It appears you have some sort of
grudge against A J.
 

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You enter every discussion and try to turn it into
an argument. What is your problem anyway? It appears you have some sort of
grudge against A J. A J gives his opinion and you call it preaching.
Actually I do not enter every discussion. My participation here, if you actually count the posts, is in the distinct minority. The problem, now that you ask, is this is a "Christianity Theology" thread not a religious discussion thread. Change the name and I will go away. As for grudges, I hold no grudges. But I am tired of Christians who don't know the difference between a religious discussion and preaching.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
"Spare me please... we all have heard it thousands of times in our life. That is not discussing religion, that is preaching. The title of this section is Religious Discussion, not Preaching Christianity."

A J gives his opinion and you call it preaching. I believe the THREAD is titled
Are These Christians "Legalists?". You enter every discussion and try to turn it into
an argument. What is your problem anyway? It appears you have some sort of
grudge against A J.
Since SR has no understanding of the Christian faith, he cannot have an understanding of the topic at hand. The natural man lacks spiritual perception. I honestly can't blame those who can't see.
 

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Since SR has no understanding of the Christian faith, he cannot have an understanding of the topic at hand. The natural man lacks spiritual perception. I honestly can't blame those who can't see.
Oh, I understand it quite well, that is why I am not one. As for spirituality, I prefer something MORE spiritual than Christianity and more moral than Christianity.

The issue is, is this a religious discussion page or a Christian Club? My original response was in the form of a discussion. Your reply was dogma. So much for a discussion. Why not call this AJ's Pulpit and stop the pretense that it is a place for religious discussions.
 

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Actually I do not enter every discussion. My participation here, if you actually count the posts, is in the distinct minority. The problem, now that you ask, is this is a "Christianity Theology" thread not a religious discussion thread. Change the name and I will go away. As for grudges, I hold no grudges. But I am tired of Christians who don't know the difference between a religious discussion and preaching.
A J gives his opinion from a Christian view. It is you that doesn't know the difference between discussion and preaching. Again the title of THIS THREAD under the heading of "Religious Discussion" is Are These Christians "Legalists?". You enter threads with Christian topics, to troll and flame.
As for grudges........Eeyore gives his thoughts on the subject and you have
nothing to say. Is this because he is a Mod or do you agree with him?
 

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You enter threads with Christian topics, to troll and flame.

Aren't nearly all of them Christian preach topics? I am certainly not setting the agenda.

I am not trolling or flaming. I am looking for a DISCUSSION not a Christ Coffee Clatch on every topic. The thread is RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS, not CHRISTIANITY TODAY.

Revelations is about imagery, or shall we say, "God's" intent is revealed through imagery. You will note there is no Ford pick up truck in Revelations. They are images real and imaginary of the time. More so, humans are rather limited and consistent about how and what they can imagine, dream et cetera. Now if there was a Ford pick up truck in Revelations, or even a Toyota, that would be something. But as it were the images were rather standard. The dragon, whether used by early Christians or American Indian comes from the same experience, and is used the same way. Since your God clearly picked a dragon for the image than a pick up truck there is something to it and that is the basis of a discussion that does NOT get theology flung on everyone.

Your God chose a dragon not a pick up truck for imagery. Why?

As for grudges........Eeyore gives his thoughts on the subject and you have
nothing to say. Is this because he is a Mod or do you agree with him?
I didn't see Eeyore's post. I don't read them all, do you? I often just go to the bottom.
 

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The story would seem to retell the birth of Jesus and His mothers attempt to
flee King Herod. The dragon of course being evil. At the same time gives a
short version of Jesus' life and ascention to heaven. The dragon is also symbolic
of the future group of nations (some believe the EU) and their war against the
saints. This war being armageddon. Thank you A J. for your thought provoking
threads.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The story would seem to retell the birth of Jesus and His mothers attempt to
flee King Herod. The dragon of course being evil. At the same time gives a
short version of Jesus' life and ascention to heaven. The dragon is also symbolic
of the future group of nations (some believe the EU) and their war against the
saints. This war being armageddon. Thank you A J. for your thought provoking
threads.
Thanks seven7. We're in an exciting time in history. To read and understand the history of mankind from his beginnings in the Garden of Eden to the present is literally fascinating. To see prophecies unfold before our eyes is awe inspiring. I can hardly wait for Christ's return and the global changes that are sure to take place. Talk about global warming!! :D:
 

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Eph. 2: 1- 10

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

1 John 4:10

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
 
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