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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Consider an analogy:

Firearm, Motor vehicle, Pitbull terrier.

Is the owner of these items responsible for them?

What should occur if the owner acts irresponsibly or dangerously (or criminally) with any of those items?

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Now ... How about government?

Should the owners of the government--The People--be held responsible for its behavior?
 

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Should a mail-room worker be held responsible for insider trading by the CEO of the company?

No.

Unfortunately, The People don't "own" the government any more than the mail-room worker owns the company. The government, like the company, is corporate bought and corporate ran on both sides of the aisle.
 

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You can't hold any one random individual in a country as being responsible for the actions of the government of that country.

I rarely have had the pleasure of voting for the winner of any significant office. I've devoted vast quantities of my personal time into changing "what is" into "what it should be" but with little visible results after decades of effort.

So am I responsible for what my government is doing when most of it is against my will? Hell no.

And I certainly shouldn't be held responsible for my government's actions due to my lack of success in changing my government (which is a topic which has come up before). As brilliant as I am, I am but one person and its a very rare person who can single-handedly alter the course of his country's political destiny (at least while being ethical).

I'm fortunate enough to have a political system in which I can work for change without being punished. In many countries, the people aren't even that fortunate.

Take Iran for example and the economic sanctions against it. Their government does undesirable things. We impose economic sanctions which hurt the people of Iran but the people running their government use their position to insulate themselves from any of the resulting hardships.

Is a random Iranian responsible for the actions of his government? No. Should we be hurting random Iranians with sanctions when what we want to accomplish is hurting the Iranian government? In my opinion, no.
 

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Depends.

In an autocratic form of government where the people are repressed; no.

In a democratic or republican form of government, in the short term, difficult to say. It would depend on the specific situation.

Over the long term; yes, the people are responsible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Should a mail-room worker be held responsible for insider trading by the CEO of the company?

No.

Unfortunately, The People don't "own" the government any more than the mail-room worker owns the company. The government, like the company, is corporate bought and corporate ran on both sides of the aisle.
In a corporation, shareholders own it. If the corporation does something wrong, the shareholders pay.

If a mail-room worker does something wrong, the corporation (and thus shareholders) pay.

Chain of responsibility goes in the opposite direction, with your example.

TRM said:
Depends.

In an autocratic form of government where the people are repressed; no.

In a democratic or republican form of government, in the short term, difficult to say. It would depend on the specific situation.

Over the long term; yes, the people are responsible.
Thats an interesting distinction you make over the short and long term differences ... In practice I'm inclined to agree.

I believe it is The Peoples responsibility to determine if and how they want to live. If they choose to live under an autocrat because the alternative (possibly death) is worse, then that is their choice and not even the devil himself can take that away.

Hence I think a certain amount of responsibility can be assigned to those who pay (perhaps forced) taxes to a dangerous or violent government.

When the Pitbull owns the master, it's time to euthanize it?

or...

Are you saying that all citizens in your country work for your government?
 

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If the corporation does something wrong, the shareholders pay.

If a mail-room worker does something wrong, the corporation (and thus shareholders) pay.
How does this address the fact that a mail-room worker (The People) is not held responsible for insider trading (crimes) by the CEO (government)?

The People are not the shareholders. The People are the mail-room worker, corporations are the shareholders.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
How does this address the fact that a mail-room worker (The People) is not held responsible for insider trading (crimes) by the CEO (government)?

The People are not the shareholders. The People are the mail-room worker, corporations are the shareholders.
Did you have your coffee yet today? :)

The People and corporations have nothing to do with one another.

The People is Public.

A corporation is Private.

The People are to a Government, what Shareholders are to a Corporation.

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Your mail-room worker analogy works for soldiers and front-line government employees. That is, the premise works. The answer is not so clear, as Nuremburg discarded the "I was just following orders" legal defense.
 

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The People and corporations have nothing to do with one another.
Are you denying corporate influence in government affecting the people the government is supposed to serve?

The People is Public.

A corporation is Private.
Corporations can be both private and public, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

The People are to a Government, what Shareholders are to a Corporation.
I vehemently disagree. Shareholders benefit from a corporation :D:

Unless you're willing to view the mail-room worker as The People, you can't comment on the analogy since we're not speaking about the same concepts. I don't think we're on the same page with what I'm saying.

The answer is not so clear, as Nuremburg discarded the "I was just following orders" legal defense.
If a government orders its armed forces to commit atrocities, its armed forces aren't The People. Why should I, one of The People, be held responsible for something a soldier does on the other side of the globe?*

Regardless, you're adding details after the fact... this is a very different question than the OP. "I was just following orders" doesn't apply to the OP. The OP discusses The People being held responsible for its government's actions. "I was just following orders" applies to individual actions. Practically, I don't have a say in what the government does. However, I do have a choice in committing atrocities that necessitate the "I was just following orders" defense.
 

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I respectfully believe you are undereducated in this area ...

Private:

Shareholders elect Board of Directors. Board of Directors tells Corporation what to do.

Public:

The People elect Representatives. Representatives tell Government what to do.

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I don't care if something is broken, just like the victim of a Pitbull Terrier attack doesn't care about the circumstances that led to the attack. The responsibility falls on the owner.

The owner is the one who pays for it.

If you pay a dollar in tax to your government, you are the owner.

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The German People paid reparations for the actions of their government for over 60 years after WW2.

Presumably because the rest of the world held the German People responsible for the actions of their government.

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Just like guns ... You don't blame the gun ... You blame the owner, the person who is supposed to be in control/responsible for it.

Do you think Governments just leap out of their holsters on their own? :D:
 

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I respectfully believe you are undereducated in this area ...
Again, I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying, and what my analogy is meant to demonstrate, is that how a government actually works is far different than how it's supposed to work.

This statement is correct:

Shareholders elect Board of Directors. Board of Directors tells Corporation what to do.
This statement is not (in addition to ascribing Public/Private to these statements, since again, a corporation can be either public or private):

The People elect Representatives. Representatives tell Government what to do.
If you pay attention to the stock market, and I'm sure you do, you'll see that the shareholders are the most important thing to a company. If shareholders aren't seeing a profitable bottom line, the company will bend over backwards to ensure that their stock price holds. People will get laid off, plants will get closed, all for the sake of the shareholders.

When's the last time you've seen a government bend over backwards for The People?

That's why shareholders ≠ The People. In an ideal world, yes, your analogy would be correct. But it doesn't actually work that way.

I don't care if something is broken, just like the victim of a Pitbull Terrier attack doesn't care about the circumstances that led to the attack. The responsibility falls on the owner.
Yes, assuming that The People can be considered as the owner of the government. But they cannot.

In the pit example, if an owner has demonstrated due diligence, they will not and should not be held responsible. What can The People do as their due diligence? Vote, be active. But let's say, for example, that I did my part. I fulfilled my duties, and voted against Bush. Why then should I- the individual- be held responsible for the Iraq War?

If you pay a dollar in tax to your government, you are the owner.
1) I go to the grocery store.
2) I buy a soda with a dollar.

By that logic, I am now the owner of the grocery store?

Furthermore, my tax dollars are taken from me. They are not given.

The German People paid reparations for the actions of their government for over 60 years after WW2.

Presumably because the rest of the world held the German People responsible for the actions of their government.
The rest of the world made them do the same thing after WW1, too. It ended up being a contributing factor to WW2.

Just because something happened doesn't make it a good idea.

Just like guns ... You don't blame the gun ... You blame the owner, the person who is supposed to be in control/responsible for it.

Do you think Governments just leap out of their holsters on their own? :D:
Alright, so you're using the "don't blame the gun, blame the criminal" defense that firearm advocates use (which I don't disagree with): a gun is a tool and should be used properly. If it is not, the blame does not lie with the tool, but instead with the person wielding the tool.

How does a government enforce its will, its crimes? Law enforcement, military, etc. These are the tools that the government uses. But like you said, don't blame the tool (military), blame the person wielding the tool (government).

But your original premise holds that the military should be held responsible for their actions, yes? Which is why you keep bringing up WW2 Germany and how they were held responsible?

So which is it? Should the tool be held responsible or should it not? Your proof of concept is contradicting the original argument.
 

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Interesting topic. Lets talk about the United States. The very proposition that the people of the U.S. are responsible for the actions of the government would beg the question; do the people of the U.S. have the right to know everything the government does? If the answer is no, how can the people be responsible for actions that are kept from them? How can the people be responsible for actions they have no power to directly affect?

Lastly, to whom would the people be responsible? Are wee talking other individuals as in war crimes? Or other sovereign nations?

You my friend, have opened a philosophical can of worms.
 

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People are the primary reason **** is so ****ed up today, too many looking for handouts and not contributing to society. The apathy towards the Constitution and voting in good candidates is shameful, so yes the failure of the US since the time of the Founding Fathers is squarely on the people that vote these idiots into power.

The ones of us that do vote for the Constitutionalists get drowned out by the gimme free cheese crowd.
 
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