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That 10rd mag hangs way below the shotgun. What do you do when it is empty and you still need to keep shooting. For a range toy or limited use gun that 10rds sounds like enough. Try taking a combat shotgun course and you WILL see what a pain in the butt a mag shotgun is. There is simply no easy way to top up that box mag like is possible with a tube.

My 18.5" Win 1300 carries 7 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. So I get 8rds (+ 6 on sidesaddle) without having to mess around with a box mag. If I shoot two I can easily load two from the shell carrier or even just from my pocket.
You top off a magazine fed shotgun the same way you top off a magazine fed rifle.

You change the magazine.
(You can have more than one magazine)
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I wonder when we'll see the first rimless shotgun shell,designed for box mags?
 

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Semper Fi
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You top off a magazine fed shotgun the same way you top off a magazine fed rifle.

You change the magazine.
(You can have more than one magazine)
------------------------------------------
I wonder when we'll see the first rimless shotgun shell,designed for box mags?
Take a combat shotgun course and see how well that works. The object is to only rarely shot the shotgun to empty. Shoot two...load two, etc. A box mag is a very inefficient way to carry extra shotgun rounds.

The concept of operation is different between a rifle and a shotgun.

As to the rimless shell, not going to happen. Shells index off the rim as there is no shoulder like a rifle cartridge not a case lip like rimless pistol rounds. There is also no industry standard for how long an unfired shotgun shell has to be. The 2.75", 3", etc are the fired lengths. Some brands of 2.75" shells are short enough that you can fit an extra one in a tube fed mag even.
 

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I’ve had a Saiga for years and love it. I have several 5 and 10 round magazines. I also have a 12 round and 20 round drum. Honestly I’ve only used the 20 round drum once because of it’s size/weight and unwieldyness. Other than that I am completely comfortable with it. A 12 round drum in the shotgun, and two 10 round mags on my person gives me quick and easy access to 33 rounds. Easy enough to make that 3 10 round mags on my person for quick access to 43 rounds.

Shoot 13, drop the drum, quickly insert magazine number 1 and I immediately have 10 more rounds. Shoot them, drop the mag and insert mag #2 and I quickly have 10 more. And so on.

I can’t imagine any situation where that would be necessary but still nice to have.
And in a fluid, shoot and move scenario what are you doing with those empty mags? The stick mags I understand going into the dump pouch or reinserted into the chest rig but you have a mag pouch that will hold the drum or you just drop it and leave it behind?

Again, take a combat shotgun course and see where the limitations of mags comes in.
 
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Take a combat shotgun course and see how well that works. The object is to only rarely shot the shotgun to empty. Shoot two...load two, etc. A box mag is a very inefficient way to carry extra shotgun rounds.

The concept of operation is different between a rifle and a shotgun.

As to the rimless shell, not going to happen. Shells index off the rim as there is no shoulder like a rifle cartridge not a case lip like rimless pistol rounds. There is also no industry standard for how long an unfired shotgun shell has to be. The 2.75", 3", etc are the fired lengths. Some brands of 2.75" shells are short enough that you can fit an extra one in a tube fed mag even.
I'm certainly willing to try and find out.

As for headspacing a rimless shotgun shell, there's this bizarre thing:
Liquid Cosmetics Test tube Cylinder Spice
 

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I'm certainly willing to try and find out.

As for headspacing a rimless shotgun shell, there's this bizarre thing:
View attachment 410957
Which...
1: Is not rimless

2: Fits none of the 100s of millions of shotguns out there.

3: Was a joke. The shell was 3D printed and isn't real.
 
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Take a combat shotgun course and see how well that works. The object is to only rarely shot the shotgun to empty. Shoot two...load two, etc. A box mag is a very inefficient way to carry extra shotgun rounds.

The concept of operation is different between a rifle and a shotgun.

As to the rimless shell, not going to happen. Shells index off the rim as there is no shoulder like a rifle cartridge not a case lip like rimless pistol rounds. There is also no industry standard for how long an unfired shotgun shell has to be. The 2.75", 3", etc are the fired lengths. Some brands of 2.75" shells are short enough that you can fit an extra one in a tube fed mag even.
Depend on how the shotgun course was set up, if it is heavy on topping off a tube magazine and reloading drills you may have a point. Most courses are designed for pump shotguns.

Although, in the time it takes to shove a couple of shells through the loading gate a person could just as easily drop a magazine and inset a new one. It's simply a matter of dexterity.

The concept of operation is different, how so? If both the shotgun and rifle are using box magazines, I'd say they're they are using the same concept.

While there is a difference between how a pump shotgun and a box fed pistol or rifle introduce ammunition into the chamber. The rest of what happens is pretty much the same as far as concept is concerned.
 

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Which...
1: Is not rimless

2: Fits none of the 100s of millions of shotguns out there.

3: Was a joke. The shell was 3D printed and isn't real.
I know all of that, but still the concept is one that could pan out. Simply make a shotgun shell that headspace somewhere else. Possibly a belt, which would allow both headspacing and higher pressures, allowing the same shot velocity in a shorter shell. Assuming of course, you have a powder that can provide such a feat.

Obviously such a shell wouldn't work in existing shotguns, but but new cartridges not fitted existing guns is the history of the unitary cartridge and the guns that fire them. I think a 2" rimless shell in a mag fed shotgun could do well once mag fed shotguns progress a little further. I don't think it would do well now.
 

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They're cheap garbage. If they're for range fun, by all means, have at it. For a actual defensive firearm, I'd rather have a old double. At least they're dependable. These things are cobbled together in 3rd world countries from zinc and pot metal. The mags are crap, the actions sloppy. Guys buy them, run a couple boxes through them, and declare they are well made. This is the gun that will run.....ok, until you really need it. Don't be a cheapskate. Buy quality made firearms.

Not to be more of a buzz kill, but steel shot is not a good idea. It's inferior to lead in every way, and will likely wreck that crap tier barrel.
But they look so tacticoool, like something you'd see in the movies, isn't that worth something??

:love:

I don't see any point to the concept. The whole point of a combat shotgun to me is to be a slim, short package that I can hide in a slim, discrete looking soft case in my truck. No time to screw around with bulky mags. Get an FN SLP MkI (8+1) or Beretta 1301 (7+1) and have a far superior firearm. They will cost more, but they are in another class.

A gun isn't a serious piece simply because it has a ninja/military style mag hanging down. And a lot of those have LESS mag capacity than a similiar tube mag shotgun! 😩
 

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How’s this for a compromise? For $50 I can turn my Benelli from a 5 shot to a 10 shot. If I reload as I go I won‘t have extra mags to dump or carry. BTW I’ve seen mags sell for around the price this extension.

Font Trigger Gun accessory Gun barrel Wood
 

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How’s this for a compromise? For $50 I can turn my Benelli from a 5 shot to a 10 shot. If I reload as I go I won‘t have extra mags to dump or carry. BTW I’ve seen mags sell for around the price this extension.

View attachment 411066
I'd rather have the tube even with the barrel personally. You'd lose 1 round, but it keeps it more compact and handy in tight spaces. I have absolutely no idea why numerous companies put out "tactical" shotguns with 5 or even 4 round tube mags! At least match the barrel and get 7 or 8!! 🤪
 

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You actually have a choice of tube sizes. You can go from +two to +5 or 6. They are available for most of the popular selling shotguns. The tube extending fromthe barrel end doesn’t seem any different from WML’s extending past pistol barrels .
 

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Tube fed shotguns are great for stomping through the weeds hunting, or banging around a duck boat. Lots of advantages in that scenario.

Mag fed shotguns are great and fun. I suppose there is more risk of failure with mags failing or falling out? The mag hanging out the bottom catches everything and hits on everything.

I need to buy a drum for mine, I keep reading though that drums don't feed over about 20 rounds reliably.
If I needed 20 rounds to defend myself there has been a lot of failures leading up to that point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
That 10rd mag hangs way below the shotgun. What do you do when it is empty and you still need to keep shooting. For a range toy or limited use gun that 10rds sounds like enough. Try taking a combat shotgun course and you WILL see what a pain in the butt a mag shotgun is. There is simply no easy way to top up that box mag like is possible with a tube.

My 18.5" Win 1300 carries 7 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. So I get 8rds (+ 6 on sidesaddle) without having to mess around with a box mag. If I shoot two I can easily load two from the shell carrier or even just from my pocket.

In my opinion the mag fed shotguns are basically a range toy.
Yeah... I will disagree....

You can have your discussion with the 5 Mags I have, loaded and ready to go. In a home invasion situation, if I need more than 40 rounds (3-10's and 2-5's) of 12 Gauge Magnum loads.... I'm probably dying anyway..... and a traditional shotgun would never help me in that situation.



.........
 

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That's where the platform shines. Hunkered down in a static position defending an area.
IMHO, just about any other scenario favors a more traditional setup.
 

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Take a combat shotgun course and see how well that works. The object is to only rarely shot the shotgun to empty. Shoot two...load two, etc. A box mag is a very inefficient way to carry extra shotgun rounds.
No it isn't. Beats loose rounds in a pocket for sure....I've seen guys load a shell backward.
Besides, what's wrong with having 1 in the chamber, 5 in a box, and shoot 5, load 5? I mean, if the stage is DESIGNED to shoot 2 load 2, great....but real life isn't set up in stages based on tube capacity.

This argument reminds me of the 19th century rifle arguments about magazine cutoffs, and how the repeaters with tubes could barely outshoot the single shots, and THAT is why boxes became a thing.


But they look so tacticoool, like something you'd see in the movies, isn't that worth something??

:love:

I don't see any point to the concept. The whole point of a combat shotgun to me is to be a slim, short package that I can hide in a slim, discrete looking soft case in my truck.
Is it? Is it really? The WHOLE POINT of a combat weapon is to pack nicely and discreetly into your truck?

Come off it.:rolleyes:

The WHOLE POINT of a combat anything is to effectively engage in combat and help the user survive, or at least destroy as many of the enemy as possible prior to EOM.

Besides...I have a rifle in a slim short package that hides discretely behind my rear seat, along with 180 extra rounds of ammo in a belt under that seat. My Saiga would fit there just fine.
 

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No it isn't. Beats loose rounds in a pocket for sure....I've seen guys load a shell backward.
Besides, what's wrong with having 1 in the chamber, 5 in a box, and shoot 5, load 5? I mean, if the stage is DESIGNED to shoot 2 load 2, great....but real life isn't set up in stages based on tube capacity.

This argument reminds me of the 19th century rifle arguments about magazine cutoffs, and how the repeaters with tubes could barely outshoot the single shots, and THAT is why boxes became a thing.
The concept has nothing to do with tube (or mag for that matter) capacity. The idea is that you never run the gun dry.

So how many 5rd mags are you carrying around? What do you do when they are all empty...ask the bad guys nicely if they will hold off while you reload those mags? The simple fact is that it is MUCH easier and space efficient to carry shotgun rounds loose rather then loaded in multiple LOW capacity mags.

And people have tried to insert mags backwards as well, so the fact remains you can't make things totally idiot or stress proof.

I think you have your history a bit confused. Box mags were not the next step from tube fed rifles. That would be stripper clip or charger loaded fixed mags. The epitome of that being the Garand with its 8rd en-bloc. The Lee-Enfield had a 10rd detachable mag but the rifle was NOT intended to be reloaded by swapping mags. The soldier simply used 5rd stripper clips.

Detachable box mags for rifles make sense as you get a LOT of rounds in a small space. Adding a 5rd mag to a previously 5rd tube fed weapon brings NOTHING to the table beyond unnecessarily complicating the weapon.
 

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No it isn't. Beats loose rounds in a pocket for sure....I've seen guys load a shell backward.
Besides, what's wrong with having 1 in the chamber, 5 in a box, and shoot 5, load 5? I mean, if the stage is DESIGNED to shoot 2 load 2, great....but real life isn't set up in stages based on tube capacity.

This argument reminds me of the 19th century rifle arguments about magazine cutoffs, and how the repeaters with tubes could barely outshoot the single shots, and THAT is why boxes became a thing.




Is it? Is it really? The WHOLE POINT of a combat weapon is to pack nicely and discreetly into your truck?

Come off it.:rolleyes:

The WHOLE POINT of a combat anything is to effectively engage in combat and help the user survive, or at least destroy as many of the enemy as possible prior to EOM.

Besides...I have a rifle in a slim short package that hides discretely behind my rear seat, along with 180 extra rounds of ammo in a belt under that seat. My Saiga would fit there just fine.
Yes.

Really.

That is all.

:)
 
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