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Does not play well
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In reading another thread about needles and IVs I was inspired to add to my aid kits. I have access to a huge surplus store locally that has a nice selection of military medical supplies. I picked up more of the standard gauzes, compresses, etc. Plus I found the hose part of an IV drip, so I picked up two of those as a Ranger friend is picking me up some various volumizers. The thing is that the drip kit came without needles. So I went looking.

What would be a good gauge size for IVs? Or maybe other applications? I know it all depends on what is being delivered (like insulin takes a very small needle while gamma globulin is like injecting peanut butter).

I can readily pick up shringes with 18 or 22ga needles. 18 seemed likeit would be rather intense to recieve. Also will the needles on the shringes fit the IVs? Or will I have to take one apart and get a several dollar answer?


I want to be able to deliver IVs, antibiotics, and insulin. I imagine all three take different gauges. Anyone have suggestions?

MM
 

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Semper non compos mentis
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Having been on the receiving end in hospital and ambulance a few times, IIRC the most commonly used general purpose gauge of cannula was 14g. Some of the emergency techs on this site might have a clearer answer though.

Cheers, Herne
 

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Where da' gold at?
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For general medical use, such as nausea/vomiting, headache, and what not I use a 18 to 20 gauge. 16 and 14 gauge for serious trauma calls, and it also depends on the size of the persons veins (grandma ain't gonna take a 14 to the wrist, her veins aren't big enough), and the location such as to the wrist, AC, the external jugular vein, the foot, etc.. If I feel like a real a**hole I will use a 14 or 12 gauge simply cause I can, but that rarely, rarely happens.
Some meds are better pushed through larger veins, such as D50 for hypoglycemic diabetics, since it is pretty much sugar water it is thick. I try to use a 18 then, but I have used a 22 ga and it was hard to get through.
But a word to the wise here. If you are not trained to start an IV then don't. If SHTF then whatever, but you can get in deep dutch if you do it and it comes back on you. Not to mention some meds can hurt the patient if not put in properly. There, thats my disclaimer for my opinion on IV's.
 

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BEEN HERE TO LONG
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In reading another thread about needles and IVs I was inspired to add to my aid kits. I have access to a huge surplus store locally that has a nice selection of military medical supplies. I picked up more of the standard gauzes, compresses, etc. Plus I found the hose part of an IV drip, so I picked up two of those as a Ranger friend is picking me up some various volumizers. The thing is that the drip kit came without needles. So I went looking.

What would be a good gauge size for IVs? Or maybe other applications? I know it all depends on what is being delivered (like insulin takes a very small needle while gamma globulin is like injecting peanut butter).

I can readily pick up shringes with 18 or 22ga needles. 18 seemed likeit would be rather intense to recieve. Also will the needles on the shringes fit the IVs? Or will I have to take one apart and get a several dollar answer?


I want to be able to deliver IVs, antibiotics, and insulin. I imagine all three take different gauges. Anyone have suggestions?

MM
you need at lease a 18ga if you need to run blood.smaller for iv drips and only larger ones if massive blood loss to replace fluid. im a retired emt-iv
 

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I have to agree with the others, if you are not trained to start IV's, then don't waste your money on them. There are other less invasive ways to treat everything you mention.

Also starting IV's is a skill that takes practice. There is more to it than just sticking in a needle. Vein selection and location are based on what you are planning to do with it and its not something for beginners to play with either.

Same goes for suturing, leave that stuff to people trained to do it.
 

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Scarred for life...
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I can just imagine someone trying to start an IV with no training.

Remember bevel up....lol.

Plus about a dozen other important things to remember that you need to practice a hundred times before you try it on a person.

Take some classes. Phlebotomy, Nurse assisting, Med Tech, EMT, etc.

I would consider these courses to be a minimum if you want to be able to start an IV, and do other procedures.

There are just so many ways to make a bad medical situation a million times worse with no training or the wrong training. Anybody who says they can do it without having been trained how is a f%cking moron.
 

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I think I understand why you want to add IV equipment to your kit, MountainMan; you’re preparing for the worst-case-scenario when essentially everything goes “do-it-yourself or die”. However, Captintux is correct in sounding a warning that you’re getting into hazardous territory when you start collecting IV equipment before getting a solid grounding in the basic principles of IV therapy first. Here are a few guidelines on what you need to learn before you consider sticking needles in someone under your care. (This is assuming that you already have knowledge of basic phlebotomy techniques.)

As a rule, it’s the size of the vein being used that determines the needle gauge, not the type of medication being administered. Larger veins can handle larger needles (like the 14-to-16 gauges that Herne mentioned), while smaller veins require something around an 18-to-20 gauge. Large-bore (lower numerical gauge) needles are necessary in when large amounts of fluids need to be rapidly infused, like trauma situations. Otherwise, the smaller-bore (higher numerical gauge) needles are more commonly used.

Now, here’s where things start getting sticky. NO, you do NOT want to give medications through IV routes, even in desperate situations, unless you can:

1. Precisely control the concentration of the medication in the IV fluid
2. Strictly maintain sterility in the preparation of the IV fluid
3. Precisely control the rate of fluid flow
4. Know exactly which IV fluids and medications are incompatible with each other
5. Have the means to monitor basic blood constituents like electrolytes, hematocrit and glucose

And those are just the basic considerations. All of those conditions are going to be really hard to meet in a post-TSHTF situation.

There might be a few instances where IV therapy would be warranted under primitive conditions, like hypovolemic shock (Doc Young, we could use your opinion on this one), but they are few and far between.

This doesn’t mean that you have to toss out the idea of adding IV capability to your survival medical arsenal; after the Fall of Western Civilization there may not be any trained personnel readily available when you really need them. But it does mean that some member of your survival team needs to get the requisite training first.
 

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I have been a paramedic for years now and here are my thoughts. If you dont know what you are doing......dont do it!!! You could kill someone or give them a stroke if you break off the cath in a vein. I dont know what kind of training you have had or if you have any. It is not an exact science and it takes practice. I cant imagine letting someone start an IV on me that doesnt know what they are doing. I would take my chances doing it myself. I will recommend certain needles.....

IV needles choices....
rapid volume replacement/blood-----14ga,16ga,18ga
volume replacement or KVO-------18ga,20ga
kids and the elderly---------20ga,22ga,24ga

Syringe needles
insulin--------27ga
general injections ----25ga,27ga
I wouldnt get anything larger than a 22ga or smaller than a 27ga.... 29ga would work but would not be my first or second choice, for injections.

On the IV side of things. Do you have any fluid to run? If so what is it? Why? Do you know what the purposes of the 5+ different fluid types?

Syringes? Got any? If so what type and how big?

You mentioned giving IV antibiotics.....where are you going to get those from? I have a very extensive ALS kit and i dont have any IV antibiotics or pain killers and dont have access to them.

On IV fluids, did you know that some IV fluids can have a negative interaction with some medications? That could be a big problem.

I dont know your background and medical training. I am not recommending that you take this on without the proper knowledge, practice, and skill. My recommendation is that you find a like minded medical professional in your area, make friends and include them in your bug out group or neighborhood watch team/bug in team. I hope the people on this thread have helped you. Good luck

N-
 

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Preparing...
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The most common reason you would need one seems to be dehydration.
Now in a survival situation i would just drink lots of water. Although this takes longer to rehydrate you you don't run the risk of infection.
 

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Does not play well
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
DONT!!!!

You have no clue what your talking about so I doubt you have the slightest clue how to use them.

Spend your money on some training.
Thanks Doc for your generous insight your was my favorite retarded reply. Maybe I am just in a bad mood but WHAT THE HELL KINDOF ATTITUDE PROBLEM DO YOU GUYS HAVE?

A little story. I was taking a road trip and found myself about halfway between Gallup NM and Albequerque NM traveling EB on I-40 when my brother, my friend, and myself looked over at the WB lanes just in time to see a tractor-trailer driving through a Crown Vic. We looked just in time to see the front bumper of the Peterbuilt going through the front seat of the car. Funny thing about that, a Doctor stopped to help. He had no supplies. I had no supplies and no training, but I could have had supplies and with his training two lives might have had a chance. As it was it took the HP almost an hour to arrive and it was at least a 45min flight by helicopter from Albequerque. A flight that wasn't needed because I didn't have the gear that a trained professional could have used.

Now get yourselves down off your self righteous high horse and back to the reality of what I am trying to do here. This is a prep sight and that is what I am doing. I am preparing for situations for which I am not currently prepared. This involves the aquiring of various skills and equipment and sometimes in a very random order.

My friend's wife is a nurse, but does not have the inclination to put away a kit like I am building. Another friend is a decorated army ranger that knows his way around battelfield medicine and could properly use almost any equipment I could put together. I have access to an flight nurse (LtCol in the Airforce) and an ER trauma nurse. Anyone of these people could use this equipment in a pinch. Just because I have supplies does not mean I know how to use them, but it doesn't mean nobody does.

Beyond that I plan on aquiring the hands on knowledge on how to use such equipment. However no one knows the timeline of SHTF and I may not have access to such stuff AFTER I aquire knowledge.

I was not a President's 100 level sniper before I purchased my first sniper system, but it did not stop me from buying and learning how to use such complex gear.

I appreciate the information some of you have provided, others of you ought do a gut check. When asking a serious question one should not have to seek approval from other members.
 

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I'm your huckleberry
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Dont mess with IV's unless you are a licensed EMT, Nurse, etc.!!
I agree. This is nothing to screw with. I'm a PA and an RN and I think about this when treating pts in the ER. You need to know why you need an IV and what type fluid to use. If you give someone D5W and they're diabetic...you screwed up. Sometimes there is NO second chance or do-overs. Oral fluid repacement is usually best unless its trauma related.

Now, in answer to the question, I'd have a stash of 14, 16 and 18 ga IV needles as well as some "butterflys" in the 20-24 range.
 

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"Dolt"
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Thanks Doc for your generous insight your was my favorite retarded reply. Maybe I am just in a bad mood but WHAT THE HELL KINDOF ATTITUDE PROBLEM DO YOU GUYS HAVE?

A little story. I was taking a road trip and found myself about halfway between Gallup NM and Albequerque NM traveling EB on I-40 when my brother, my friend, and myself looked over at the WB lanes just in time to see a tractor-trailer driving through a Crown Vic. We looked just in time to see the front bumper of the Peterbuilt going through the front seat of the car. Funny thing about that, a Doctor stopped to help. He had no supplies. I had no supplies and no training, but I could have had supplies and with his training two lives might have had a chance. As it was it took the HP almost an hour to arrive and it was at least a 45min flight by helicopter from Albequerque. A flight that wasn't needed because I didn't have the gear that a trained professional could have used.
And nothing in your post would have help this situation. Your retort holds no water. Again if you want to help get training.

Dont get a big head, I'm a **** to everyone when it come to this section.

Everyone here will tell you I dont sugarcoat. I will tell you exactly how I feel on the subject and why I feel that way. This is not the same as asking which water filter I need for my camping trip. When you speak of insulin, IV's and other mid level medical care, you are possibly taking people lives into your hands. If you dont know what your doing you shouldnt do it. Its that simple.

Its nothing personal, you simply need some training on the subject.
 

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A little story. I was taking a road trip and found myself about halfway between Gallup NM and Albequerque NM traveling EB on I-40 when my brother, my friend, and myself looked over at the WB lanes just in time to see a tractor-trailer driving through a Crown Vic. We looked just in time to see the front bumper of the Peterbuilt going through the front seat of the car. Funny thing about that, a Doctor stopped to help. He had no supplies. I had no supplies and no training, but I could have had supplies and with his training two lives might have had a chance. As it was it took the HP almost an hour to arrive and it was at least a 45min flight by helicopter from Albequerque. A flight that wasn't needed because I didn't have the gear that a trained professional could have used.
So it took 1 hr 45 min to transport them and an IV would have helped how? Those people needed a trauma center and blood not an IV. All fluid replacement would have done on them would have been to cause the loss of more red blood cells, cell and brain tissue death. In other words they had no chance to survive to hospital discharge. At best they would have been "dead in the bed" waiting for someone to pull the flippin plug.

If you don't know what you are doing with that stuff, leave it alone. Possession of syringes and needles without a prescription is considered possession of drug paraphernalia and not worth the headache or expense. IV fluids can not be given cold (think winter time in the trunk of your car), have a short shelf life, and most importantly do not save lives of trauma patients. Used inappropriately they can kill.
 

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Getting Older
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DONT!!!!

You have no clue what your talking about so I doubt you have the slightest clue how to use them.

Spend your money on some training.
He's talking about an IV not heart surgery. Just because you (I'm assuming you are a doctor[this is the internet, btw] spent several years in the fraternal order of pre-med before you were officially allowed to take somebody's pulse that does not mean everybody here has the time or resources to do the same. It would kind of be like me telling you not to change your oil unless you are ASE certified mechanic.
 
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