Survivalist Forum banner

1 - 20 of 105 Posts

·
Information is Ammunition
Joined
·
22,122 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm

If guns are outlawed," an American bumper sticker warns, "only outlaws will have guns." With gun crime in Britain soaring in the face of the strictest gun control laws of any democracy, the UK seems about to prove that warning prophetic.
For 80 years the safety of the British people has been staked on the premise that fewer private guns means less crime, indeed that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger.

Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.

The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.

But would allowing law-abiding people to "have arms for their defence", as the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised, increase violence? Would Britain be following America's bad example?

Old stereotypes die hard and the vision of Britain as a peaceable kingdom, America as "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic" is out of date. It is true that in contrast to Britain's tight gun restrictions, half of American households have firearms, and 33 states now permit law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons.

But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.

You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.

Much is made of the higher American rate for murder. That is true and has been for some time. But as the Office of Health Economics in London found, not weapons availability, but "particular cultural factors" are to blame.

A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.

When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.

The price of British government insistence upon a monopoly of force comes at a high social cost.

First, it is unrealistic. No police force, however large, can protect everyone. Further, hundreds of thousands of police hours are spent monitoring firearms restrictions, rather than patrolling the streets. And changes in the law of self-defence have left ordinary people at the mercy of thugs.

According to Glanville Williams in his Textbook of Criminal Law, self-defence is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law".

Nearly a century before that American bumper sticker was slapped on the first bumper, the great English jurist, AV Dicey cautioned: "Discourage self-help, and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians." He knew public safety is not enhanced by depriving people of their right to personal safety.

Joyce Lee Malcolm, professor of history, is author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience, published in June 2002.
_______COMMENTS________

With around 30,000 gun deaths a year, I think we should look elsewhere than the US for ideas on this subject. More legally-owned guns means more chances for accidental deaths in the home from guns, more teenagers finding their parents' guns and playing with them, more chances for legal guns to be stolen by criminals to be used by criminals.
R K Bulmer, UK

I'd rather, if my granny were to be mugged, that she had the choice to pull out her purse, or her .45 Magnum. She's a little too old to learn kung-fu, or to run away. She may well hand her purse over anyway, but at least she has the choice. Criminals carry guns anyway, so it's about time the rest of the population had the same choice.
Sid, UK

I can't see the average British citizen wanting to take pot shots at potential muggers, however a right to self defence, not something chewed to incoherence by the lawyers, would do more to restore people's respect for the law than a personal armoury - that and more police to investigate existing crimes.
Andy, UK

I'm an expat living in Texas, where we all as citizens have a right to carry guns. I do not personally carry a weapon, but criminals do not know that. That is a deterrent. I am armed to the teeth at home in my "castle". Criminals have a question they ask themselves when they think about approaching a house out in the country: Is that family armed or not? More than likely they are.
Andy Barnett, Texas, US

I find this notion ludicrous. We do not need a nation of armed vigilantes (potential or otherwise) to ensure the peace, but rather active citizens who are willing to stand together against crime in their neighborhoods and cooperate with local authorities to apprehend criminals. This is the way to reduce crime. To draw a link between gun ownership and an overall drop in crime in the US is spurious and the article does not have enough evidence to point to a causative relationship between the two.
Sean Aaron

It is clear that the knee jerk reaction after Dunblane has achieved precisely nothing except reduce our chances of any sporting shooting success. The politicians have consistently read this matter wrongly. Perhaps it is time to give the academics a chance?
Alan Preddy, UK

Allowing homeowners to arm themselves will simply encourage potential burglars to arm themselves, and I don't particularly want to get into a gunfight for a colour television.
Mike, UK

This is like saying that raising the speed limit in built-up areas will cut pedestrian deaths since cars will spend less time passing through.
J, UK

Rarely do we get to hear such a flimsy argument based on misused and easily quoted statistics as Prof. Malcolm's. More avaliability of firearms in the UK would bring us more Dunblanes and perhaps a Columbine.
J.Canning, UK

Can you imagine the number of mistakes, accidents, acts of temporary insanity, etc. that would result from having guns freely available? I wonder what the police think of this crazy idea - what policeman would dare to investigate a "domestic quarrel" call, not knowing what firepower he might face?
Gordon, Canada,

More guns in the UK would mean less crime. If crimnals fear the use of firearms by citizens then they will be less likly to committe an offense. People should have the right to own firearms as well as carry them in the UK.
Ian, UK
 

·
Good Bye
Joined
·
1,808 Posts
OH NOES!!!! evil guns = death.. In fact, having a gun in your home means you will DIE!!! RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,848 Posts
Here we go again, lets play "bait the Brits".

The fact is you are more likely to die a violent death in the USA.

According to many of you, knives are banned in the UK, should I and the other UK members be worried about being raided by the police?

I'm presuming I'll get the usual mob attack, Brits aren't allowed to hunt, they can't own guns, they can't carry a knife....
 

·
Information is Ammunition
Joined
·
22,122 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
thats a stout lady that can shoot something THAT big
 

·
ruralist
Joined
·
1,441 Posts
According to many of you, knives are banned in the UK, should I and the other UK members be worried about being raided by the police?

I'm presuming I'll get the usual mob attack, Brits aren't allowed to hunt, they can't own guns, they can't carry a knife....
Article is not about hunting/fishing in possession of knives or guns, target plinking firearms on private property, or a mantel piece collection of deactivated illuminous machine guns/samurais. It is about the right to urban/vehicle/home carry lethal guns for defence, for the express purpose of shooting someone within particular rights. That is what the author calls for an imitation of and what is indeed wrong with the UK. He's right about the unrealistic expectation that the police could have been there to protect everyone and I know personally and through friends just how distanced and useless the cops are and how an increasing proportion of society act with impunity, taking short holidays in prison. The regular folk pay the price.
 

·
Earthwalker.
Joined
·
10,288 Posts
Im all for home defence and self defence,give me a browning over a stick anyday.
 

·
Haha
Joined
·
3,407 Posts
Are the police in the UK allowed to carry guns? My logic is that if citizens can't own, possess or use a gun then the police, MI5 and Military can't. If your going to have a Democracey then all people need to be equal, no special treatment or rights. You cant ban freedoms from one group and not the other if your government believes in equal rights.

Can't call your self free if your country really isn't.

-Cade
 

·
Permanently gone
Joined
·
1,720 Posts
Here we go again, lets play "bait the Brits".

The fact is you are more likely to die a violent death in the USA.

According to many of you, knives are banned in the UK, should I and the other UK members be worried about being raided by the police?

I'm presuming I'll get the usual mob attack, Brits aren't allowed to hunt, they can't own guns, they can't carry a knife....
York,
I know Brits ARE allowed firearms within certain legal parameters. However, the price of the firearm, the expense of licensing it, permits to hunt or shoot are wildly out of reach of the average bloke there.

As for the knives, there has been a call for the round-up of blade weapons, i.e., swords, decorative or commemorative weapons, etc. While knives, per se, are not banned, certain blade weaponry has been banned in certain areas. (Specific townships and villages and the like)

I LIKE owning a firearm. I LIKE having the ability to shoot an intruder.
I love going to the range and watching the fellas faces when I pull out what is considered (by the police) an *urban assault weapon* (.12 gauge autoloader H&K Benelli). It is a lovely and very lethal looking weapon.
Here she is resting comfortably on my bed...


Should the UK rescind some of their bans and loosen restrictions on owning firearms?
I am not a citizen there, it is not my place to say.
Let the British make their own decisions on issues concerning their *green and pleasant land*.
 

·
I'm the boogey man.......
Joined
·
6,686 Posts
Should the UK rescind some of their bans and loosen restrictions on owning firearms?
I am not a citizen there, it is not my place to say.
Let the British make their own decisions on issues concerning their *green and pleasant land*.

Just like a few canucks around here need to STFU about American politics...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,760 Posts
Some people in Europe seriously think that if you give an honest, law-abiding citizen a gun, it will directly turn into a criminal and start acting like a criminal. :eek: It really is that bad. Also, many people think that Americans are stupid. What 'a bunch of gun-toting ********'. Europeans lol, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
 

·
Information is Ammunition
Joined
·
22,122 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
known a few myself. knew a girl online on another forum that stopped talking to me right after she found out that I own
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wolfe

·
Earthwalker.
Joined
·
10,288 Posts
Are the police in the UK allowed to carry guns? My logic is that if citizens can't own, possess or use a gun then the police, MI5 and Military can't. If your going to have a Democracey then all people need to be equal, no special treatment or rights. You cant ban freedoms from one group and not the other if your government believes in equal rights.

Can't call your self free if your country really isn't.

-Cade
well Cad i agree with you on that if the Police can carry so should i be able to.

In curtain areas of Notingham England were there has been gun crime the police carrry fire arms,we have armed response teams in all big citys,yet the police are all but useless in protecting the public.

We need a means to protect are selves that matches what the criminals are carrying.

Now i know curtain so called Brit liberals will disagree with me on this but most of them live in a bubble and have never been on the wrong end of a gun in there lives,But i am not a Brit,Im English or to be more precise Anglo-Celtic,i sure ain't a liberal and have been on the wrong end of a gun.
 

·
ruralist
Joined
·
1,441 Posts
Are the police in the UK allowed to carry guns? My logic is that if citizens can't own, possess or use a gun then the police, MI5 and Military can't.
ARU (armed response units) are a branch of the police and operate in all cities but are mostly geared to saving highstreet shops from robbery, not teleporting to the bridge under which you have been pistol whipped for example. Regular police do not even carry pistols. I grew up knowing a police man who is now senior and I remember he told me many years back that they voted themselves not to carry guns because every time they shot a criminal they faced serious disciplinary charges and could end up in prison. Same dilemma as citizens face defending themselves really..

PS. I agree with your logic
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,848 Posts
cadethepagan, as sticks rightly said just about every police force has specialist firearms units (I believe they are issued with amongst other things Glocks and semi-automatic MP5's) that drive around in suped up cars.

To say that UK citizens can't carry concealed weapons then the military can't have firearms is quite frankly ludicrous. If that's the case then what about the states in America that don't allow concealed carry, should the American military, police and FBI be stripped of its weapons?

So, if every citizen was allowed to carry a pistol then all police would have to be armed (the association of chief police officers has always refused calls for all bobbies to carry firearms).

Given the fact that it can be quite hard to acquire a criminal record in this country (something which angers me) for persistent violent behaviour, stealing and mugging, how would we come up with the rules for lawful concealed carry?

Perhaps the British (English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish) members here could bounce some ideas around? Do we only issue concealed carry to citizens over the age of 25,30,40? who are completely clean and don't even have a police caution? Or perhaps only arming ex-servicemen and women?

FWIW I'm not completely against the idea of concealed carry.

There are less than a hundred deaths a year from firearms in Britain, with your liberal gun laws (yes liberal gun laws, those rat bastard liberals!) how many firearm deaths are there a year in the USA?

If you were to arm several hundred thousand law abiding people in Britain would we see a marked increase in firearm deaths?

I'm genuinely sorry sticks had a gun pulled on him, as you know he's a good bloke and only he can tell you the circumstances involved. If he'd been allowed to carry a gun then my money would be on him to win the day.

But I don't personally know anyone that this has happened to. I haven't lived an especially privileged life even though my father was a teacher, for a time I grew up on a particularly rough council estate in Middlesbrough. Living in Leeds there were shootings but most if not all were connected to drug dealers.

arrexian, I can read, I'm well aware of what the article said. I'd like to tell you that it pisses me off that I can't EDC my RAT Cutlery RC-3 or my SAK Rucksack but at the same time I have to acknowledge that I don't want gangs of youths to be carrying blades on the streets with impunity.

What bothered me was the intent behind posting this. With respect to Dwind and I do like and very much appreciate him but he posts these type of threads regularly. He must find the whole UK legal thing very interesting.:)

In various sections of this site I've read posts by different people falsely claiming what we can (the government) and can't do (us the people) in the UK and I've spent quite a considerable time trying to explain UK laws regarding self defense, hunting, gun ownership and knife carry.

As an example here's a link to one of the last times I tried to explain things http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=29806

I would like to ask a question in all honesty to the Americans.

If the average young man who applies to the British military hasn't had much, if any experience in using firearms, how come our soldiers are so respected in the military community?
 

·
Earthwalker.
Joined
·
10,288 Posts
cadethepagan, as sticks rightly said just about every police force has specialist firearms units (I believe they are issued with amongst other things Glocks and semi-automatic MP5's) that drive around in suped up cars.

To say that UK citizens can't carry concealed weapons then the military can't have firearms is quite frankly ludicrous. If that's the case then what about the states in America that don't allow concealed carry, should the American military, police and FBI be stripped of its weapons?

So, if every citizen was allowed to carry a pistol then all police would have to be armed (the association of chief police officers has always refused calls for all bobbies to carry firearms).

Given the fact that it can be quite hard to acquire a criminal record in this country (something which angers me) for persistent violent behaviour, stealing and mugging, how would we come up with the rules for lawful concealed carry?

Perhaps the British (English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish) members here could bounce some ideas around? Do we only issue concealed carry to citizens over the age of 25,30,40? who are completely clean and don't even have a police caution? Or perhaps only arming ex-servicemen and women?

FWIW I'm not completely against the idea of concealed carry.

There are less than a hundred deaths a year from firearms in Britain, with your liberal gun laws (yes liberal gun laws, those rat bastard liberals!) how many firearm deaths are there a year in the USA?

If you were to arm several hundred thousand law abiding people in Britain would we see a marked increase in firearm deaths?

I'm genuinely sorry sticks had a gun pulled on him, as you know he's a good bloke and only he can tell you the circumstances involved. If he'd been allowed to carry a gun then my money would be on him to win the day.

But I don't personally know anyone that this has happened to. I haven't lived an especially privileged life even though my father was a teacher, for a time I grew up on a particularly rough council estate in Middlesbrough. Living in Leeds there were shootings but most if not all were connected to drug dealers.

arrexian, I can read, I'm well aware of what the article said. I'd like to tell you that it pisses me off that I can't EDC my RAT Cutlery RC-3 or my SAK Rucksack but at the same time I have to acknowledge that I don't want gangs of youths to be carrying blades on the streets with impunity.

What bothered me was the intent behind posting this. With respect to Dwind and I do like and very much appreciate him but he posts these type of threads regularly. He must find the whole UK legal thing very interesting.:)

In various sections of this site I've read posts by different people falsely claiming what we can (the government) and can't do (us the people) in the UK and I've spent quite a considerable time trying to explain UK laws regarding self defense, hunting, gun ownership and knife carry.

As an example here's a link to one of the last times I tried to explain things http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=29806

I would like to ask a question in all honesty to the Americans.

If the average young man who applies to the British military hasn't had much, if any experience in using firearms, how come our soldiers are so respected in the military community?
I don't really have the answer on who should be allowed to carry a gun,maybe those with no criminal record or mental problems that have been on a fire arms course?

As for knives i know what you are saying about not having gangs of feral youths wondering are streets with knives,but they also have guns and id like to be on a level footing.

As for are military being respected thats down to a rich history of battle experiance and excelent training.

Also from the cops i know and have argued with on the knife laws they say its down to there discression who gets arrested,and some have no idea what discression means,what i mean by this is they would arrest anyone and then its down to you to prove you had good reason so i think we need more defined laws on this issue so the police have a defined criteria.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,848 Posts
I don't really have the answer on who should be allowed to carry a gun,maybe those with no criminal record or mental problems that have been on a fire arms course?

As for knives i know what you are saying about not having gangs of feral youths wondering are streets with knives,but they also have guns and id like to be on a level footing.

As for a are military being respected thats down to a rich history of battle experiance and excelent training.

Also from the cops i know and have argued with on the knife laws they say its down to there discression who gets arrested,and some have no idea what discression means,what i mean by this is they would arrest anyone and then its down to you to prove you had good reason so i think we need more defined laws on this issue so the police have a defined criteria.
I gave my brother a locking SAK.

He's pretty intelligent and reasonably well educated.

The first thing he did was open the blade and look at it.

He said, "that's illegal".

I said "What?".

He said, "It locks and the blade is over 3 inches".

I said "WTF? It's not illegal, you just can't EDC it without a justifiable reason".

He said "OK, you're right".

Now my brother is no sheep.

Even worse he was a copper in Manchester for nearly 3 years!
So sticks I get where you're coming from!

The belief of what is appropriate to carry by British beat bobbies is F'd up. The only saving grace is if you are arrested for carrying a bladed article then the Desk Sergeant is your first port of call. If he or she believes you were lawfully carrying within your rights your are sent home, end of story.

In my brothers defense, I know he was a good and trust worthy bobby.
He removed the body of an old lady who had died in her bath and had been there for a week. He shattered the arm of a thug who was resisting arrest.

He told me that he followed a car and stopped it for a search.
They checked the car and found a fairly large amount of class A drugs.

They went to the 18yr olds house, he lived with his parents and searched his bedroom.

They found several kilos of hashish, a pump action shotgun (illegal to own in this country) and a bulletproof vest.
 

·
Information is Ammunition
Joined
·
22,122 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
why do I suddenly have the uncontrollable urge to go watch Hot Fuzz now?
 
1 - 20 of 105 Posts
Top