[Hungry]

There is some good info here about the Hague Convention agreement of July 29 1899

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=1711

When I CC, I use personal protection ammo. For 9mm it's Gold Dot, for .45 its Hornady, for .357, I've just been using wad cutters.

Good Luck

 

[doh]

Wow... Think you need to do some research here bud. I think you'd learn more on what and why if you did the research instead of me telling you.

 

[Kapture1]

Wow... Think you need to do some research here bud. I think you'd learn more on what and why if you did the research instead of me telling you.

Ok, I want to know from those who have first hand experience.

I use FMJ as practice rounds, and I have loaded Federal Hydrashoks.

I'm just wondering cause I know that for the 45, hd ammo is not cheap, and I would imagine that is what you all are stockpiling?

 

[Doc_Shane]

Military general issue is FMJ, for it's wounding ability not killing.
There are several conventions and treaties prohibiting ammunition designed to maim or cause undue suffering, so hollow points are not allowed generally.

M855 (SS109) 62 grain penetrator for the M4/M16 is standard issue.

For the pistol-

Almost any 124 gr FMJ 9mm will be equal to the issue rounds.

 

[I be he]

Can't be FMJ, can it?

What about LEO's? Hollow points?


So when stocking up on ammo, I should be stocking up on home defense type ammo, right?

Its fmj for the most part. Not to slam the overpriced defense ammo market, or people, but i carry or stock up on fmj only

 

[Kapture1]

Military general issue is FMJ, for it's wounding ability not killing.
There are several conventions and treaties prohibiting ammunition designed to maim or cause undue suffering, so hollow points are not allowed generally.

M855 (SS109) 62 grain penetrator for the M4/M16 is standard issue.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering.

 

[I be he]

Ok, I want to know from those who have first hand experience.

I use FMJ as practice rounds, and I have loaded Federal Hydrashoks.

I'm just wondering cause I know that for the 45, hd ammo is not cheap, and I would imagine that is what you all are stockpiling?

Dont do it........dont do it.

 

[9111315]

The Military is going to use the best round and determined by committee - which included everyone from finance to compliance with treaties and conventions.

I’m willing to pay more to meet my needs.
increased safety
increased energy transfer

Accordingly, If I use Military Ammo, I don’t use it just because it is “Military Ammo.” Most of the time, I use JHP for carry and self defense.

 

[Doc_Shane]

Nope- ball ammo for practice- good JHP for carry and serious business.

All my "rainy day" rifle ammo is Lake City M855 and Hornaday TAP.

I've used ball ammo in both 9mm and 5.56 on people and was not really impressed with FMJ at all, it sometimes took more than one round to put them down.

 

[I be he]

Nope- ball ammo for practice- good JHP for carry and serious business.

All my "rainy day" rifle ammo is Lake City M855 and Hornaday TAP.

I've used ball ammo in both 9mm and 5.56 on people and was not really impressed with FMJ at all, it sometimes took more than one round to put them down.

It takes more then one defensive round here in the states also.
Thanks for your service.:thumb:

 

[WSierra]

Just a quick side comment..
In my concealed carry classes... when the issue of ammunition is covered, one thing I suggest is to contact your local law enforcement folks and ask what they carry in their service pistols. This advice came from an attorney during my instructor classes...
IF, you have the misfortune of being in a shooting incident, the prosecutor will look and pry for anything to label you as a cowboy. ... modified firearm, etc. and the type of ammunition will be looked into. If you have attempted to use the same round used by law enforcement, that can be a plus. Typically, they choose an effective round that will not go through a bad guy and hurt an innocent bystander. They spend some time researching this, might as well take advantage of their work.

 

[9111315]

Again, selection by committee. YMMV.

How about - I did research, I read reviews, I evaluated safety issues, I made a decision, I take responsibility, I defended myself.

I could have simply used whatever round the PD uses, but I don't know what their selection criteria was. How could I be responsible for that round if I don't know why they selected it. - or even, I disagree with their conclusions.

The stupid crook should have picked someone irresponsible who would not defend themselves.

 

[WSierra]

Again, selection by committee. YMMV.

How about - I did research, I read reviews, I evaluated safety issues, I made a decision, I take responsibility, I defended myself.

I could have simply used whatever round the PD uses, but I don't know what their selection criteria was. How could I be responsible for that round if I don't know why they selected it. - or even, I disagree with their conclusions.

The stupid crook should have picked someone irresponsible who would not defend themselves.

Understood. Just giving you an attorney's perspective. A shoot, even a good shoot, is likely to be quite an ordeal. Give yourself all the advantages you can.
I've served on a jury in 2 shooting cases, neither fatal, ... it's brutal. They will pick you apart if at all possible. Make YOU look like the bad guy, salivating for an opportunity to shoot someone. It's not pretty, and a jury could swing either way.

Dumb things to do... cop killer bullets, 'Black Talon" type bullets, trigger jobs, carrying 4 extra magazines lol , carrying more than one firearm, cammo, bloused boots, the wrong tattoos, skull ring, Black T-shirt= 'Kill 'em all and let G-d Sort 'em out" .... a halfway decent lawyer will chop you in half. Then it's a toss up. But, don't take my word for it.

 

[FarmerJohn]

i got a few boxes of hollow points mostly for my edc and other pistols but mainly i use fmjs

 

[WSierra]

Again, selection by committee. YMMV.

How about - I did research, I read reviews, I evaluated safety issues, I made a decision, I take responsibility, I defended myself.

I could have simply used whatever round the PD uses, but I don't know what their selection criteria was. How could I be responsible for that round if I don't know why they selected it. - or even, I disagree with their conclusions.

The stupid crook should have picked someone irresponsible who would not defend themselves.

Yeah. I have even heard of (unsubstantiated) stories of law enforcement using ammunition because it was provided by ammunition manufactures for their use.
Still, you would be using locally 'approved' rounds. That can carry some weight at trial. It may seem like a minor point, but don't count on it.
Speaking as an old [email protected] with some experience. ;-)

 

[infinityshock]

Can't be FMJ, can it?

What about LEO's? Hollow points?


So when stocking up on ammo, I should be stocking up on home defense type ammo, right?

you dont want to have anything to do with what the military uses since their needs and requirements are of no concern to a civilian or LE. the military is required by international conventions to use a type of ammo that wont cause unnecessary pain and suffering to anyone hit by it, meaning, no hollowpoints, exploding bullets, etc. this means FMJ rounds are to be used. they managed to get around this by developing bullets that cause more damage that standard fmj by bouncing around inside the target. if the intentions of the actual treaty were followed, this would be prohibited.

LE uses their own ammo based on their own criteria which may or may not be appropriate for civilian use. the criteria between departments and agencies is more varied than the number of departments and agencies themselves.

so. yea. when stocking up on home defense ammo, you should use hollow points.

 

[9111315]

Understood. Just giving you an attorney's perspective. A shoot, even a good shoot, is likely to be quite an ordeal. Give yourself all the advantages you can.
I've served on a jury in 2 shooting cases, neither fatal, ... it's brutal. They will pick you apart if at all possible. Make YOU look like the bad guy, salivating for an opportunity to shoot someone. It's not pretty, and a jury could swing either way.

Dumb things to do... cop killer bullets, 'Black Talon" type bullets, trigger jobs, carrying 4 extra magazines lol , carrying more than one firearm, cammo, bloused boots, the wrong tattoos, skull ring, Black T-shirt= 'Kill 'em all and let G-d Sort 'em out" .... a halfway decent lawyer will chop you in half. Then it's a toss up. But, don't take my word for it.

Understood.

I'm just saying the way it should be.

I also agree that you are just saying the way it is.

(P.S. I think I'll pass on the skin ink. Regs require that I blouse boots.)

 

[kyle1337]

I was in from '04 - '07 we used during that time in combat settings 62gr green tip SS109 or M855 "barrier blind" in conjunction with 64gr tracers(depending on weapon used). that was for 5.56, at the range it was 55gr fmj. For 7.62 I believe it was 150gr fmj in conjunction with tracers(again depending on weapon used). 9mm was 124gr FJM, ALL FMJ's! Due to the Geneva and hague conventions I believe. Cops can use whatever their approved to use. Mostly if not all are HP's in the U.S.. Due to the fact that it can "neutralize" a threat faster due to expansion and can lessen collateral damage as it will not pass through a "subject" as nearly as often as an FMJ will. However, I find it's a double edged sword for police. In most police shootings captured on videos their almost always shooting through car windshields and doors, and HPs will either not go through or if it does change bullet trajectory missing their target, I think police should use FMJ's in conjuction with HP's.

 

[infinityshock]

In most police shootings captured on videos their almost always shooting through car windshields and doors, and HPs will either not go through or if it does change bullet trajectory missing their target, I think police should use FMJ's in conjuction with HP's.

any military-caliber rifle round will penetrate a standard vehicle, whether its HP, FMJ, or otherwise. most police-caliber pistols are more likely than not to penetrate a standard vehicle. the laws of physics require anything penetrating something else to change its trajectory and this is compensated for (or should be) by someone who knows what theyre doing when theyre doing it. HP, soft points, tipped hollowpoints, or whatever still have a chance of expansion inside a human body after penetrating a barrier. FMJ does not. the selection criteria for many agencies, including the FBI, requires the bullet be effective after penetrating a vehicle.