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23K views 49 replies 22 participants last post by  Nocturnus 
#1 ·
So I'm pretty excited. I've pulled the $ trigger on the pieces to start learning long range shooting.


Savage Axis in .308 - most bang for the buck in a starter-rifle IMO


Review: http://www.snipercentral.com/bushtact.htm
Bushnell Elite 3200 Tactical 10x with target turrets and mil-spec reticule

Also ordered:
EGW one piece scope base http://www.egwguns.com/savage/savage-edge/axis-picatinny-rail-scope-mount/
Harris Bipod S-BRM Swivel Bipod-Leg Notch 6"- 9"



I'm going to have my smith mount and bore-sight it as well as give it a good action/trigger smoothing down to maybe 3 pounds.

This is intended to be a starter rifle to allow me to teach myself long-range shooting. Will probably spend around $700 after all the goodies, and I want to try a multicam spray-paint job just for kicks.

My goal is to be cold-bore dead-on accurate to 600 yards in whatever conditions I encounter. After that, I will drop a good $2000-3000 on a really nice sniper rifle and this one will live in the truck.


Comments/Suggestions?
 
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#4 ·
I wouldn't have bought the Edge/Axis because unlike other Savages...the Edge/Axis you cannot upgrade. That is the best thing about the Savage/Stevens 200 is that you can upgrade to a better barrel and stock when money permits, but the Edge/Axis does not allow one to do that...you would have to sell that rifle in order to upgrade.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Buy lots and lots of ammo. If you are going to shoot out ot 600 yards you have a long learning curve ahead of you.

Good Luck

HH54r
 
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#7 ·
But lots and lots of ammo. If you are going to shoot out ot 600 yards you have a long learning cruve ahead of you.

Good Luck

HH54r
I hear you...I've been reading up a bit with a few books and researching aspects of long range shooting for a few months now (besides researching weapons and gear.)

I'm looking forward to the humbling experience of actually sending some lead down range.

Ammo will be expensive because I've decided to find a good quality round that the rifle (and I) like and stock just that ammo- not the usual cheap = practice, quality = carry method I use for handguns. I do have some sort of cheap Remington ammo that I will use to break in the barrel during the first range visit.
 
#8 ·
Looks like a good start - weapon, scope, and more importantly - attitude. :thumb: If I may suggest, keep reading everything you can find on long range shooting, before you pull a trigger. Get a basic feel for what is required to hit a "faraway" target.
I was lucky to have been taught by some of the finest instructors around (thanks to Uncle Sam). :D: If at all possible, try to find someone in your area that shoots long range - Then, ask questions - pick their brain for all you can - most shooters will be happy to share their knowledge with you.

You seem to good sense - you're starting off slowly, doing the needed research, willing to learn...keep it up!!! You'll really enjoy the challenge of long range shooting. And please, keep us advised as you progress. Thanks, Dan3
 
#12 ·
I've ordered some other gear including rings and a sling along with some other goodies. I'll post pics as it gets put together.

And, yup, the next rifle will be a serious rig and I will learn that one also - part of the process for me.

I just can't see myself learning on a $3000 setup - seems silly.
 
#16 ·
I'd return the aluminum scope base and get some steel ones. Aluminum is soft and your scope rings can come loose. Warne makes great bases.

I agree on the rifle choice. I'd go right off the bat and buy a bull barrel gun. If you're going to learn to shoot at 600 yards, you need a gun that can handle heat well. Good hunting rifles start to open up after 3-5 shots. A bull barreled rifle will give you more shots per range session.

A starter rifle can be a lifelong rifle if selected wisely. I know little of custom rifles. However, an affordable choice is the savage 110 action. I'd buy a nice used 110 savage, maybe look round for custom mausers, or used 700's. You can buy tons of parts for an affordable price.

Overall, an excellent start package is a .223 bolt action rifle. If you can hit a coyote at 500 yards, you know what your doing with a rifle. Also, back again to heat. .223 burns 25 grains of powder, .308 burns 50 grains. Which one is going to heat up first?

This is why I like the lower power cartirdges. I just can shoot more rounds and still have good results than other rifles.

when you sell a rifle, you loose money. Just keep saving up a bit more for the right setup. You must also consider the ammunition costs lost with selling a good rifle. Now you must spend the money again learning what the gun likes. That can easily be a few hundred dollars right there.

Once you start shooting alot, the price of the equipment is pale in comparison to the ammunition. Start with the keeper.

Also, not too many folks in the USA have places than can readily shoot 600 yards. I learned a ton trying to shoot a .30-30 at 300 yards. Your building skills and considering the equipment temporary, that sounds to me like you should get a .223 rifle.
 
#17 ·
You did well. I have a total of 3 Savage bolt actions set up with the Bushnell 3200 Tactical scopes. A Model 10-FP, a Model 12-FT/R both in .308, and a model 110-FCP/K in .300 Win. Mag. All of them are very accurate weapons.







My choice was the Bushnell 3200 5-15X. I have a total of 5 of them mounted on my Savages, as well as a Kimber 8400 Police Tactical, and my Bushmaster BA-50, .50 BMG rifle. I can easily reach to 1,000 yards with both .300 Win. Mags., as well as the .50 BMG. These scopes offer IMHO the most brightness and clarity for the money. They out perform several of my Leupolds in both of those categories. Bill T.





 
#19 ·
Why the 600 meter first round cold bore shot? Is there something specific here that you're trying to do? And are you talking about a human sized silhouette target? I so, why not get a scope that will range better for you? With the Leatherman scope system below you sight in on an 18 inch area and that gives you the ballistic shot factor you need/want for any shot. Just curious...

http://www.opticsplanet.net/leather...rt-m1000-2-5-10x44-riflescope-art2510x44.html
 
#20 ·
I'm trying to learn as much about sniper skills as possible. Besides the other skills like camo, stalking, and terrain observation, I'm also working on general fitness and hiking. (Not really talking about all that in this thread)

For my first "learner" rifle, I wanted something with the basic features like target turrets and mil-spec reticule. 600 yards cold-bore seems like sort of a borderline for shooters and rifles, with 600+ being pretty advanced and would likely require an advanced rig.

I'm setting up this rifle like a field rifle and not a bench shooter.

Now, that scope you linked to seems VERY cool - I'd consider that later on after I learn all the basics. Maybe even as an upgrade to this rifle after I've moved on to a more advanced rig.
 
#21 ·
Okay. I got you, Grevlin...

#1. Glass bed your rifle. Have a really good gunsmith who knows about bedding rifles glass bed it. This turns your rifle into a solid one piece by sort of "gluing" all the parts of the rifle together. It also greatly increases your accuracy. If you shoot like a 3 inch group at 100 yards, glass bedding will tighten the group to an inch or less. Also make sure to bed the rifle after you've added all your additional parts like any bipods and such. Glass bedding of a rifle should be the last thing you do to it.

#2. High quality ammo. I like shooting the 168 National Match ball ammo. Ball ammo, especially high quality match ammo, gives you repeated consistency. The only thing better is when a sniper handloads his own special ammo for his rifle. Even then the weighing and measurements of components is critical for repeated consistent shots. And, if you go with National Match ammo, get a case of it at a time or make sure that your ammo comes from the same LOT NUMBER. Lot Number is a way for people to reference a very specific ammo group for a variety of reasons. Snipers use LOT NUMBER for referencing consistent accuracy from their cartridges.

3. Since you are talking 0 to 600 meters, with a good .308 Winchester rifle that will not be hard at all. This is provided you have broken in your rifle with at least 500 rounds, don't take the rifle apart or knock it around in any fashion and as long as you practice on a periodic basis. The reason you want to practice is because your body will undergo physical changes every few weeks. These changes will not be apparent to you or anybody else but they happen. I would practice or reference fire my rifle at least once every 6, 7 or 8 weeks. Do not go beyond 8 weeks, at most, without checking the accuracy of your shooting. All sorts of physical events will effect your shooting. High blood pressure, diabetes, too much caffeine and so on cause little changes in your system which can throw a long range shot off. And when you have 2 events at one time, you'll be lucky to hit the ground. High blood pressure can be corrected with medicines. Same thing for diabetes. If you think you're going to need to shoot at long range avoid coffee, tea and sodas until after the shooting event.

#4. Get a copy of the Army's Sniper Manual and read it. Get copies of other sniper manuals and read them too. Learn them by heart and notice what is missing from the different manuals as you read them. Also think about signing up for some long range rifle classes.

#5. Whatever area you plan to defend, know it well, especially the distances from your main location to various important terrain features. Keep a diagram of those features on your person and at various key locations. Get a laser range detector to help figure the distances. Laser range measuring devices are great for modern snipers to aid them in their shooting needs. If you get a laser range finder, don't take it to extremes. Keep it simple. In other words, you probably need one that will cover out to 1K yards/meters and not the $24,000.00 model to measure out to 20 kilometers. Use some common sense here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_rangefinder

http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/Laser-Rangefinders.html

http://www.nightvisionplanet.com/Laser-Rangefinders.html

#6. Ghillie Suit? I never used a Ghillie Suit in Nam at all. They were hot and heavy. I did, however, use camouflage to my advantage. What that means is breaking up your silhouette, especially your rifle's silhouette, so that you don't show or get detected. I would use brush and such along with my tiger striped uniform to cover me. I would sometimes wrap burlap around my rifle but I kept it so that the burlap did not interfere with the functioning of my semi-automatic sniper rifle. I would then also put material in the burlap to help camouflage the rifle too and break up the silhouette.

#7. Learn to use the sling of your rifle. You do have a sling, right? That sling can lock your upper body tight to the rifle in a way that makes you a part of the rifle too. Use of the sling will also help increase your accuracy too.
 
#26 ·
3. Since you are talking 0 to 600 meters, with a good .308 Winchester rifle that will not be hard at all. This is provided you have broken in your rifle with at least 500 rounds, don't take the rifle apart or knock it around in any fashion and as long as you practice on a periodic basis. The reason you want to practice is because your body will undergo physical changes every few weeks. These changes will not be apparent to you or anybody else but they happen. I would practice or reference fire my rifle at least once every 6, 7 or 8 weeks. Do not go beyond 8 weeks, at most, without checking the accuracy of your shooting. All sorts of physical events will effect your shooting. High blood pressure, diabetes, too much caffeine and so on cause little changes in your system which can throw a long range shot off. And when you have 2 events at one time, you'll be lucky to hit the ground. High blood pressure can be corrected with medicines. Same thing for diabetes. If you think you're going to need to shoot at long range avoid coffee, tea and sodas until after the shooting event.
Forgive me, but can you go into a bit more detail with the 500 rounds number? Is this just to ensure you have practiced enough to get up to 600 yards, or does it have something to do with the rifle or barrel?
 
#22 ·
:eek:

Keep it coming HS, thanks for all that. Really good stuff and some that I had not even considered - like physical changes, especially since I'm in a pretty tough exercise/diet/weight training program now. (Of my own design :D:)


On the glass-bedding, would that be helpful with this particular rifle? Or is it too much for the Savage Axis?

Saw a copy of the Army Sniper Manual at the local surplus store - I'll pick it up. I'm ordering a few more books now as well.

Got ya on the ammo lots, was planning on ordering by the case for that reason.



Thanks for all the info, I'll keep updates coming on this thread.
 
#23 ·
You can glass bed any rifle. A good gunsmith will know how and what to do with the bedding. If it is too much, he'll reduce the amount of bedding or not do it at all. Listen to your gunsmith and let him work with you.

By the way, when you work with the laser range finder, draw your own map of what is out in front of you and the various positions. Keep a copy of that map on your person and at each position. Also have a couple of terrain maps that also cover your area too. Do you know how to read such maps and use them? If so, also have one of those maps referenced for your needs. Overlap your hand drawn maps with a terrain map for a better picture in your own mind as to what is where inside and outside of your perimeter.
 
#28 ·
The 500 rounds is what the instructors at the 4th Division Sniper School at An Khe taught us to do. The repeated firing of the rifle allows parts to mesh, builds up your shooting confidence and lets you get a minimum feel for that specific rifle. The key is that it also tests the rifle for possible trouble that could occur in the testing phase. It is better for the rifle to break during testing than to have it break in the field. It also helps your groups tighten up before you go for record. You can actually see the groups get tighter and tighter the more you fire the rifle. I believe that the pistol maker Les Baer and some other gun makers also wants you to fire any new gun that they've made to help tighten up the groups. So the breaking in of a rifle or handgun is nothing new. It's just that some people did not know that they should do it to smooth things out for the gun. Now since the guys who told me to the breaking in of my rifle, I kind of took their advice. You see, all of our instructors were members of the U.S. Army's Olympic Rifle Team and were based out of Fort Benning or experienced snipers. I kind of like to pay attention to those who know what they're doing.
 
#33 ·
Its in the mail, along with other goodies like a modular log book and all the fixin's


Question for everyone, cleaning methods and products seems a little vague out there. Can you give your thoughts on the actual useful products and procedures?
 
#35 ·
Grevlin, do you have a log started for your rifle and all of its shots? If you record all of your shots, later on you can make your own "ballistic cheat sheet." Your ballistic cheat sheet will be information you have about dialing in your scope or how you reference your cross hairs on the target for certain distances. Some guys keep a small notebook with their data in it and the ballistic cheat sheet is either the very first or very last page in the notebook. One guy in Nam had his data taped to the stock of his rifle with a cover over it to camouflage it. When he needed the data, he flipped it open, looked at the data and then dialed it in on the scope.
 
#41 ·
Lots of good info here for sure! My recomendation would be to also look at cartridges with 173gr and 175gr boat tailed hollow points. For the military they are known as M118 and M118LR 7.62 Match Grade. I actually saw a differance between the 173gr and 175gr. I prefered the 175gr out of a 24" barrel. Extremely accurate, with a great ballistic coefficient and a bit more wind resistant when your reaching out there. Thanks to the boat tail, the hollow point and the wieght. The hollow point actually helps stablize the round further.

600m-800m can be accomplished, ammo and shooter dependant. Even with the 168gr you can reach out there, but you have to learn to read the wind and adjust for it. If you can learn to read the wind and adjust for it correctly you are golden. Elevation is the easiest when you have a proper zero and know what minute of angle you are shooting at. 1" group of 3 rounds at 100 meters is 1 MOA. Our guns were 1 minute guns with Leupold 10X MILDOT scopes and our turrets were built with the 173gr Ballistic Drop Compensator, so 1 is 100m, 2 is 200 and so on. A click in-between 1 and 2 would be 150m for example.

In urban areas we would set our elevation to 5 for 500 meters. Having a 1 MOA gun with elevation set to 500m we could quickly get on a target, aim center mass or hold over/ under and hold over for wind if needed. If the target is at 600m the round will impact 1" lower than point of aim. If the target is at 300m the round will hit 2" higher tan point of aim. This is of course if the wind is called right, adjusted for if needed and taking your cold bore shot into account. An average human torso, when facing you or facing away, is roughly 20" from shoulder to shoulder and 24" from the top of the belt buckle to the top of the head. A side profile is roughly 8"-10" across and again 24" tall. The round will hit vital organs and if you get a gut shot that will allow you time for a follow up shot in a vital area. So this was a technique we used in an Urban areas as we found target exsposure was short and did not usually allow time to adjust elevation for the exact range of a target. Like Herd Sniper said, having a map and your own sketch of the terrain in front of you or your spotter makes this easier too.

Ideally you would have time to find the distance to your target, adjust your windage and elevation so the round will hit at the point of aim, but it must be done quickly. A sector sketch with known distance marked on identifiable locations and/ or using a laser range finder is the fastest way to set up for a shot.

We spent quite a bit of time at 100 meters zeroing and collecting cold bore data. Then over time moved to further ranges. Having a proper zero after the barrel is broken in is the key. By the way sorry if using metric and standard are odd, but for us range is in meters, bullet impact is measured in Minutes of Angle and inches.

Forgot to mention I wish we had the ART scopes Herd Sniper had in his time on M14's or M21's. The idea of it sounds perfect for urban.
 
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#42 ·
Since you have a bolt action rifle, try to remember to clean from the rear (chamber area) to the front (muzzle end) of the rifle. Also check but if you glass bed your rifle you probably should NOT take it apart. If you break that glass bed seal, the rifle loses its solid status and will have to be re-worked or bedded again. Your gunsmith can tell you about that issue. There are all sorts of stuff involving accurate rifles that you'd probably never think of doing until you get one in your hands. Some of the guys are so intense about their rifles you'd think that he was holding his lover or a tiny baby by the way he cradles the rifle. I used to have to stop, think about what I was going to do with my rifle before I did it. And heaven forbid you admit to making some minor mistake with the rifle to the long time shooters of them. You will never hear the end of it. There is a difference between treating a rifle like a high quality instrument and going OCD on one. I treated mine like it was a high quality instrument. Not like it was a person or something. I got great mileage with it by being practical with it.

One thing that you have to understand; there are different kinds of accuracy concepts. You have combat accuracy and you have precision shooting. Combat accuracy means getting a good hit on a center mass silhouette target. Precision shooting means being able to put 3, 4 or 5 bullets through the same hole at 25 or 100 meters. Sniping is a cross between both kinds of shooting. At close range, say 25 meters, you do want to go for the precision shooting. Once you get out beyond 100 meters you're going to combat accuracy shots where you hit the silhouette target in the chest. Basically though, from about 0 to 300 meters a good sniper pretty much can hit a target "in the head" - so to speak. Beyond 300 meters you stick to body/chest shots. Do I have you confused? Good.

In general, you can basically from 0 to 300 meters literally do head shots on a target and become quite adapt at it. Trouble is that the head is a very small target. You run the risk of missing the head shot if any of a variety of events happen. In the original movie The Day of the Jackal, the one with Edward Fox in it, DeGaulle moves just as the sniper fires a round at him. The bullet misses. Whoever wrote that book researched his topic well because that has actually happened a number of times when snipers have tried to make head shots. That's why I say from 100 meters on out you take body shots to a silhouette target. The body is a larger target than the head. So that means that you should keep your shooting practical and not go for any grandstanding or glory shots.
 
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