[kev]

In 2016 I built a predator hunting rifle with a Palmetto state armory mid-length Freedom upper.

It has been sitting in the closet for the past year and only has a few rounds through it. Took it to the sand pit, and it is getting 5 inch groups with 62 grain Federal.

Here is the full write up - http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/09/27/psa-freedom-accuracy-tests/

I contacted PSA, and they said their rifles would get 3 inch groups at 100 yards.

Email I received from PSA support

We usually state our AR15 barrels will shoot within 3 MOA. Your twist rate should handle 62 to 77 grain ammo the best.

That is just not acceptable.

It is not just me, James from The Firearm Blog got similar results from his Freedom rifle.

So, someone recommend a mid-length gas system upper receiver that can achieve reasonable groups at 100 yards.

Primary Arms?

Spikes Tactical?

Bravo Company?

I just want something that can throw lead downrange and get somewhat close to one inch groups at 100 yards.

 

[ksmedman]

They're spendy, but I think Larue might fit the bill:

http://www.larue.com/larue-tactical-stealth-sniper-system-lt011

 

[Hungry]

If you can find one available, install one of PSA's CHF barrels. They're really good.

Good Luck

 

[jcwagers77]

Before you change it out, have you tried different ammo other than the federal? Have you tried different brands and weights? It may certainly be that the barrel just isn't up to snuff but it could be that it just doesn't like that particular ammo. Stranger things have happened, to be sure. If you try several types with similar results, then yes I would look at replacing the upper or at least the barrel. Not trying to dissuade you, just want you to be sure that the upper is the problem and not that specific ammo. Good luck and please keep us updated.

 

[Oh Shoot]

If you can find one available, install one of PSA's CHF barrels. They're really good.

Good Luck

Yep, there's a reason the Premium builds with the fine FN barrel are more than the Freedom or PTAC.

Matter of fact, they seem to have dropped the PTAC line altogether, I wonder if the Freedom line hasn't maybe dropped down a notch in quality to split the diff while maintaining about the same profit margin or some such.

I have a Freedom build from maybe close to 2 years ago that will certainly do the 3" or less at 100 yards. Matter of fact, I have a PSA 10.5 pistol config (the upper I believe was advertised as the Freedom line) from about 1.5 years ago, and the only time I locked it down to see what it would do at 50 yards without my own interference , it was doing around 1", so even it would probably do about the same.

On the third hand, you should try some different ammo. I'm leery of Federal anymore, since the bulk .223 was proven (by chrono) to be slower FPS overall and more erratic round to round than 4 Russian steel examples I tested.

- OS

 

[ImbriD]

I live within 5 miles of their warehouse store so have had the opportunity to see all their offerings.

I have their CHF FN barreled upper, their premium CMV chrome lined upper and a Freedom upper. I avoided PTAC all together.

The freedom line is definitely a lower end build, hence the price. Just handling the uppers you can feel the difference. PTAC was so light it felt more like an airsoft toy than a rifle.

However, I do at least get roughly 3" groups with the Freedom upper using XM193 or XM855. I consider the one rifle with the Freedom upper as handout rifle.

You may want to look at one of their premium barreled uppers. I have absolutely no complaints from any of the CHF or premium barreled uppers after 6 or so years of owning.

Here's a link to the CHF upper:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...1-7-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html

I do have one franken which is a PSA lower with a Radical Firearms flat top upper from Primary Arms that I got on a special sale for $150 (normally $279) and it's been surprisingly accurate.

+1 to trying different ammo. I've used Federal, IMI (Federal Independence) lol..Monarch, PMC and a few others and they all shoot different.

 

[Inazone]

In 2016 I built a predator hunting rifle with a Palmetto state armory mid-length Freedom upper.

It has been sitting in the closet for the past year and only has a few rounds through it. Took it to the sand pit, and it is getting 5 inch groups with 62 grain Federal.

Here is the full write up - http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/09/27/psa-freedom-accuracy-tests/

. . . . .

I just want something that can throw lead downrange and get somewhat close to one inch groups at 100 yards.

Sorry, Kev, but all I'm getting from this is what gun owners have known for decades, if not centuries: not all guns perform well with all ammo. If I'm not mistaken, 5.56 "mil-spec" for accuracy for the Army (maybe Marines) is 3MOA, but some guns and some brands of ammo will perform better or worse than another gun of the same model shooting the same ammo. For instance, you got 1.5MOA from PPU M193, which is not a round (as made by PPU) exactly renowned for accuracy in many circles. . . yet you got good results out of a mil-spec round and (arguably) a mil-spec rifle. You got even better accuracy out of 50gr tipped and HP rounds, which doesn't surprise me at face value since I've found the American Eagle 50gr to be very accurate myself, but I am a little surprised that both tested as more accurate out of a 1:7 twist barrel than the heavier stuff.

Regardless, I think you're simply finding that your gun doesn't perform well with American Eagle XM855. If all that AE was from the same box or lot, you might want to try some from a different lot. Another option for you would be to try another manufacturer who produces an M855 variant perhaps better known for accuracy, such as PMC (South Korean) X-TAC or IMI (Israeli) M855. I have seen IMI mentioned here and there as offering the most accurate M855 available. You would be well served by at least trying some other flavors of M855/SS109, whether it's one of the brands I already mentioned, or one of the numerous others: PPU, GGG, ZQI, Fiocchi or Winchester all come to mind. I am not a huge M855 fan myself, but I did buy quite a bit of American Eagle and PMC over the years, and since my go-to SHTF ammo is all in the 62-64gr range, I practice with M855 for consistency through various optics.

As a side note, some barrel manufacturers will guarantee specific accuracy, but PSA does not. That doesn't surprise me, to be honest. If you want such a guarantee, you'd probably need to look at a "match-grade" manufacturer, not mil-spec. Also, while some people mentioned something like the CHF barrels produced by FN for PSA's premium models, those will have chrome-lined barrels, which arguably reduce accuracy in favor of durability.

 

[ImbriD]

As a side note, some barrel manufacturers will guarantee specific accuracy, but PSA does not. That doesn't surprise me, to be honest. If you want such a guarantee, you'd probably need to look at a "match-grade" manufacturer, not mil-spec. Also, while some people mentioned something like the CHF barrels produced by FN for PSA's premium models, those will have chrome-lined barrels, which arguably reduce accuracy in favor of durability.

Very true. Didn't mention in my post. Chrome lined barrels are more for durability than accuracy.

While I have found the FN barreled rifles to be more accurate than their freedom line I believe that's do to better manufacturing practices in general.

+1 to Inazone on all points

 

[AK103K]

Im not sure I understand the complaints here. Out of 8 different loads, only two were out of the norm, and a couple shot better than whats usually allowed for.

As was mentioned, 2-3MOA is what the normal specs for most military type ammo call for, and your within that with most of what you shot.

This is something that always seems to get left out of the consideration when people tell you the have a "1moa gun" or better and cant figure out why they cant get that. The gun may be capable of it, but if your ammo isnt, hows that supposed to work?

If youre not reloading and tuning the ammo to the gun, I seriously doubt youre going to have the results you desire. Its even more so of a problem if youre using ammo the gun doesnt like.

You only tried "one" 62 grain load, and it appears the gun didnt like it. That doesnt mean others might not work better, but you wont know that until you try.

Another thing is, you were trying to do a lot, with a bunch of different loads at once. Thats not real conducive to seeing whats really working well.

Just curious here too, but were the early groups the tightest, and the last groups fired the worst, and things got progressively worse as you went?


My only experience with PSA's stuff has been with three 10.5" pistol uppers. Nothing fancy, and they are the cheaper of the two options (melonite barrels, etc). All of them shoot very close to 1" at 100 yards from a rest using my "blasting" reloads (55 grain Hornady fmj's loaded to duplicate basic GI ammo).

My oldest son has something similar in .300BO, and has pretty much the same results.

With that small sample, I really have no complaints with their stuff. Maybe I just lucked out.

 

[MagnumWill]

I can't comment on the Freedom line, but my PSA CHF 20" barrel is more accurate than it should be... when I mean that, my best group I shot with IMI Razor Core was a 3/4" group.

During that same range trip was when I learned that 62gr federal is inaccurate (and pungent) compared to that razor core ammo with 77gr MatchKings.


Try different ammo first!! I doubt you'll be hunting with 62gr Federal.

 

[Bajatacoma]

Since you've already got a mid-length upper why not just swap barrels for something other than a low end Freedom? If you don't have the tools I'm sure someone near you should. There are plenty of good barrels out there including PSAs upper end, BCM, Wilson, Larue, DD, FN, Colt, etc.

<--- No issues with my CHF PSA barrel.

 

[Swampguy]

I have had good results with my PSA barrels when using "good" ammo. Some ammo, not so much. Like others have said, I would try other ammo before spending money on another upper or barrel. I put a Bear Creek Arsenal barrel on one of my builds and it is a 1 moa shooter (when I am). It was right at a hundred bux IIRC. Might be a cheaper route to consider if ammo is not the answer.

 

[Inazone]

I can't comment on the Freedom line, but my PSA CHF 20" barrel is more accurate than it should be... when I mean that, my best group I shot with IMI Razor Core was a 3/4" group.

During that same range trip was when I learned that 62gr federal is inaccurate (and pungent) compared to that razor core ammo with 77gr MatchKings.

I don't have much need for "match" ammo, but the Razorcore stuff has been consistently accurate (from what I recall) when I've tried it. Shooting steel at 200-300 yards was no challenge with Razorcore, but PPU of the same weight produced a lot of "flyers" out of the same gun. That was a couple years ago, and I've heard that PPU has improved in that time. Meanwhile, I highly doubt that Federal has changed anything in the production of XM855.

 

[Runamok]

Try new ammo. If no change, swap out the barrel instead of a whole new upper.

 

[kev]

Im not sure I understand the complaints here. Out of 8 different loads, only two were out of the norm, and a couple shot better than whats usually allowed for.

As was mentioned, 2-3MOA is what the normal specs for most military type ammo call for, and your within that with most of what you shot.

There is a conflict between stockpiling middle of the road ammunition, and accuracy.

I do not call 3 - 5 inch groups at 100 yards accurate. In all honesty, I could not even use that for deer hunting.

In a few weeks I am going back out to the range with some good ammo. Lets see how things work out then.

 

[ksmedman]

Try better ammo for sure, but if you're still not satisfied another option to replacing the entire upper is to replace the barrel.
Ballistic Advantage make some pretty darn good barrels IMHO:

http://ballisticadvantage.com/

 

[AK103K]

I do not call 3 - 5 inch groups at 100 yards accurate. In all honesty, I could not even use that for deer hunting.

3" at 100 yards might be all you get if thats all the ammo is spec'd at. Sure, you might do better, but its still within spec. Certainly good enough for deer, etc. at 1-200.

No doubt the 5" stuff isnt what Id call in the norm, but it was the only one load that gave you that, and maybe your gun didnt like it, or you had a bad lot. I used to go through that with my AK's with a couple of the Russian imports and Wolf was usually the worst. One lot shot great, the next, terrible.

I dont know what commercial US ammo is spec'd for, maybe they dont want to say, since "every" American is a bug hole shooter and standard specs wont allow that, and they want to sell ammo.

If youre trying to determine accuracy, I think its a mistake to try and shoot them all at the same time, especially if your not letting the gun cool a good bit in between. To many variables.

If youre not reloading, then I highly suggest you start, at least if you want better accuracy than what "most" commercial will give you, especially with some guns. Youll also shoot a lot more and get better with that shooter. Wont save any money though.

I have an AR that is a bug hole shooter with my reloads it likes, and it will literally shoot one holers if I dont screw that up. Switch to USGI ball in the very next mag, and it usually wont shoot any better than 2-3". This is what Im referring to about the spec of the ammo.

I gave up trying to load one load for each gun. Except maybe for a very few, generally just a waste of time. I use 55grain Nosler BT's over 4895, running around 3000 fps for my "precision" load. Works great in the guns capable of taking advantage of it, and the results are very similar with them too.

I load one load that basically duplicates USGI and it works well in all my AR's. Its my "blasting, general practice" ammo, and on average, gives about 2-3MOA. More than acceptable for most needs.

If youre going to only use factory, Id throw out the lots that dont shot, and focus on the ones that do. You said you had a couple of 1" lots, Id focus there (obviously, the gun is capable of it). If you want different weights, then you start over with just that, and put the time into figure it out. Its the only way I know to do it.

 

[Big Sarge]

I have a Rock River Arms Predator Pursuit upper and it has done very well for me. I have the 20-inch heavy barrel stainless 1:8 twist.

 

[богдан]

alexander arms makes some tac drivers, so does larue.

I would look at alexander arms of the two

 

[Inazone]

There is a conflict between stockpiling middle of the road ammunition, and accuracy.

That leads back to the whole idea of so many people stockpiling thousands upon thousands of rounds, against whom it is easy to argue that they'd never survive the number of firefights it would take to shoot through such a large supply. If many gun owners, those of ARs in particular, only buy the cheapest ammo they can find - often to feed "bargain basement" weapons - they might be staking their survival on a gun/ammo combination that will perform poorly. Most do not shoot often enough to establish a benchmark for performance with what they own, or do anything to simulate likely shooting scenarios. Then, every time there is a panic, it's the cheapest guns and ammo that get snapped up first, often destined for the back of a safe or closet, never to be tested.

If I am buying anything other than top-dollar ammo, I keep my expectations pretty low in terms of accuracy, but definitely test for reliable function in EVERY SINGLE GUN. From there, I do try to narrow down which combination is most accurate, but it is second to reliability.