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Discussion Starter #1
Im new here to the forum, so I figured I'd ask a question that I've had for about a year now....

It seems that a lot of the complaints from Iraq and Afghanistan are coming from troops that are reporting that the 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, sometimes taking 2,3,4,5 shots to stop the threat. Some after action reports I've studied talk about the 5.56 going right through the insurgents, and not yawning or fragmenting due to the enemy's we are facing are so skinny, because of their diets.

This got me thinking about how the 5.56/.223 would perform in a shtf/looting situation here in the u.s or north America. Over here we tend to be much heavier/thicker. Whereas in the middle east the avg. weight of a man would be probably be around 120 lbs vs here we tend to average around 185.

Would this have any effect on the effectiveness of the 5.56 or .223? In other words would this round be more effective on someone who weighs 185 lbs moreso than a skinny little insurgent weighing 120 lbs. the bullet might have more time to yaw and fragment, thus increasing the Stopping potential of the round.

Any input on this question will be much appreciated....

Thanks, dbltap9mm
 

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Im new here to the forum, so I figured I'd ask a question that I've had for about a year now....

It seems that a lot of the complaints from Iraq and Afghanistan are coming from troops that are reporting that the 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, sometimes taking 2,3,4,5 shots to stop the threat. Some after action reports I've studied talk about the 5.56 going right through the insurgents, and not yawning or fragmenting due to the enemy's we are facing are so skinny, because of their diets.

This got me thinking about how the 5.56/.223 would perform in a shtf/looting situation here in the u.s or north America. Over here we tend to be much heavier/thicker. Whereas in the middle east the avg. weight of a man would be probably be around 120 lbs vs here we tend to average around 185.

Would this have any effect on the effectiveness of the 5.56 or .223? In other words would this round be more effective on someone who weighs 185 lbs moreso than a skinny little insurgent weighing 120 lbs. the bullet might have more time to yaw and fragment, thus increasing the Stopping potential of the round.

Any input on this question will be much appreciated....

Thanks, dbltap9mm
Don't count on that after about 2 months. Use SP's and HP's, or a larger caliber.
 

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Here's my safety Sir
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I lives in the obamanation all I can haves is this here Daisy Air Rafle and it's broke.
 

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17 Oaks Ranch Tx
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Im new here to the forum, so I figured I'd ask a question that I've had for about a year now....

It seems that a lot of the complaints from Iraq and Afghanistan are coming from troops that are reporting that the 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, sometimes taking 2,3,4,5 shots to stop the threat. Some after action reports I've studied talk about the 5.56 going right through the insurgents, and not yawning or fragmenting due to the enemy's we are facing are so skinny, because of their diets.

This got me thinking about how the 5.56/.223 would perform in a shtf/looting situation here in the u.s or north America. Over here we tend to be much heavier/thicker. Whereas in the middle east the avg. weight of a man would be probably be around 120 lbs vs here we tend to average around 185.

Would this have any effect on the effectiveness of the 5.56 or .223? In other words would this round be more effective on someone who weighs 185 lbs moreso than a skinny little insurgent weighing 120 lbs. the bullet might have more time to yaw and fragment, thus increasing the Stopping potential of the round.

Any input on this question will be much appreciated....

Thanks, dbltap9mm
LINKS please????
 

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This is really a non issue. Over seas the Islam combatants we are fighting have a mentality to continue fighting and become a martyr. This is motivation to push through injuries. Shot placement is also critical. Ill guarantee these hodgies that get shot multiple times arent getting head shot or good vital area hits. So lets talk about shooting crazies in a SHTF scenario. Im willing to bet that just having bullets going overhead will deter alot of folks. And once one or two get hit, they will break contact. I have no lack in confidence with the 5,56/.233 round.

-Nate
 

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Eh kay vs eh are dood!
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If you shoot the bad guy with a rocket, you don't have to worry about anything.

In all seriousness, the 5.56 Nato is a good round. No, it's not perfect. No round is perfect, well maybe 6.5 Grendel.
 

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Im new here to the forum, so I figured I'd ask a question that I've had for about a year now....

It seems that a lot of the complaints from Iraq and Afghanistan are coming from troops that are reporting that the 5.56 doesn't have enough stopping power, sometimes taking 2,3,4,5 shots to stop the threat. A scared 19 year-old is likely to shoot someone 5+ times before they manage to fall no-matter what they are shooting them with. I know I sure would--and you should, too! Some after action reports I've studied talk about the 5.56 going right through the insurgents, and not yawning or fragmenting due to the enemy's we are facing are so skinny, because of their diets. This is because some lots of M855 are not yawing until 7"+ penetration. M855 depends on fragmentation/yaw to wound, and if it does not yaw, it fails to produce much more than an ice-pick hole. This is influenced by fleet-yaw/AOA at impact. This is variable from rifle to rifle, bullet to bullet. This is why you will find some troops saying that M855 is awesome, and some saying it's crap. Their experiences are both accurate, most likely.

This got me thinking about how the 5.56/.223 would perform in a shtf/looting situation here in the u.s or north America. Over here we tend to be much heavier/thicker. This actually helps. M855 would have more time to yaw in the target. Whereas in the middle east the avg. weight of a man would be probably be around 120 lbs vs here we tend to average around 185. Really, 120#? Wow. Did not know this. I feel like a monster at 185#,lol.

Would this have any effect on the effectiveness of the 5.56 or .223? In other words would this round be more effective on someone who weighs 185 lbs moreso than a skinny little insurgent weighing 120 lbs. the bullet might have more time to yaw and fragment, thus increasing the Stopping potential of the round. Yep.

Any input on this question will be much appreciated....

Thanks, dbltap9mm
Your best plan of action is to load a quality softpoint or hollowpoint, such as...

XM556FBIT3
Any of the Gold-Dot rounds
Any of the DPX rounds
MK318 MOD 0 SOST
The new winchester FBI round (I forgot the designation, www.sgammo.com carries it)

etc.

The 5.56 works plenty well if you load correctly. According to my former roommate (USMC) who spend 3 years overseas and applied the M4 to task, M855 works very well if you do your part.
I have also talked to Marines who will tell you that M855 was worthless when they applied it.
Like I said, the results depend on the action of the M855 projectile, which is variable.
 

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17 Oaks Ranch Tx
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I have not had a chance to read yet:

http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf

After action report on the 5.56 by 2 Infantry Majors at the USA Infantry school. Its a deep report and I will ask that someone here besides me take the time to read it and post either here or in a new thread. I am swamped with stuff this week and just do not have the cycles to address it in an analytical read.

Thanks
 

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shot placement is key, as well as working within the limitations of yourself and the equipment you use.

We are all taught to aim center mass, which is fine against unprotected individuals, but if your opponent is armored then you have to rethink your point of aim.

Shots to the pelvis are devastating and are much more likely to have hits than making "head shots".

While I have seen and experienced the need for multiple hits on some targets to stop them, I have also had equal or greater number of one shot stops as well. It's all about placement and range.
 

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I've never figured out why people blame a particular cartridge or caliber for failures to stop, rather than looking a little further for the real cause.

For example, the failed Miami shootout from years back put a lot of people off on the 9mm. Yet the culprit wasn't the cartridge, it was the light weight shallow penetrating round they chose to use (among other causes such as tactics). With proper bullet choice, there isn't much difference in effectiveness between the top handgun calibers, 9mm included.

Or my friend who is extremely knowledgeable about guns and hunting. A family member of his shot a deer with a .30-06 and had a heckuva tracking job afterwards. The shot placement was good, but the bullet didn't perform properly. Now he hates the .30-06 instead of blaming a poorly functioning bullet. Yet we all know the .30-06 is more than capable of doing the job.

Same goes for the 5.56. The military uses FMJ rounds. That's the cause of the problems, not the 5.56 itself. As civilians, we're not forced to use the same ammo as the military. A proper hunting round that expands and stays together (as opposed to thin skinned varmint bullets that fragment on impact) increases effectiveness quite a lot.

It's still a small caliber varmint round. But with proper ammo choices, it can be quite effective.

Most importantly is always going to be shot placement. It doesn't matter how effective the cartridge/bullet combination is, if you don't place the round somewhere immediately vital. As they say, a .22 to the head is better than a .44 magnum to the pinky.
 

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A few years back I read a couple of after action reports from engagements between USMC and Iraqi insurgents. Lots of head shots, yes the Marines are that good...they hit what was shown. There was a followup by a news group and an elected official that these were "executions" because of all the head shots. Having seen it, 5.56 works just fine if you do your part. I also now load ball and HP, don't know if I can shoot as well as I once did.
 

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Personally I don't care for HP's or SP's... The whole idea of 5.56 is to yaw within a target. Ever noticet the cannelure around the bullet where the case neck meets the round? See that on all your other ammo? Probably not.. It's ''crimped'' so that when the round does yaw, it splits around that cannelure and fragments. It takes the right round to do this effectively.

The military currently uses M855 penetrator. It's a good round... For penetrating. Unfortunately due to its composition, weight, and purpose, it can penetrate up to 14 inches of soft tissue before yawing. This is bad news, especially when engaging ''skinnys''.

XM193 on the other hand, can yaw in as little as 4 inches, making it a better man-stopper, but a worse penetrator. XM193 is decently accurate, cheaper than M855, can be fired from all barrel twist rates, and is quite common. It's all I stock.


But if you don't want to take my word for it, or anyone elses, read this... There's more information about 5.56 than you ever wanted to know.

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#milammo
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'm looking to stock up on some 5.56 or .223. I have a saiga .223 but it's also able to shoot 5.56 NATO without issue. I'm wondering what's the best "cheap" ammo for defence, Ive picked up some silver bear 55 gr hp's that feed and shoot reliably, there also fairly accurate. Money is a factor for me so if there's a cheapper ammo out there that will reliably fragment, or expand if their hp"s, that's the ammo I'll go with... If it works in my gun.

What do you guys stockpile??? And do you order online or go to the store.?

The problem from my expirience is that the cheapper ammo (Russian, Korean, Yugoslav, etc..) is that they usually have a thicker jacket than NATO ammo, and they have a somewhat lower velocity. These two factors combined don't make for a very good defensive round, I guess it's like anything else... You get what you pay for
 

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I'm looking to stock up on some 5.56 or .223. I have a saiga .223 but it's also able to shoot 5.56 NATO without issue. I'm wondering what's the best "cheap" ammo for defence, Ive picked up some silver bear 55 gr hp's that feed and shoot reliably, there also fairly accurate. Money is a factor for me so if there's a cheapper ammo out there that will reliably fragment, or expand if their hp"s, that's the ammo I'll go with... If it works in my gun.

What do you guys stockpile??? And do you order online or go to the store.?

The problem from my expirience is that the cheapper ammo (Russian, Korean, Yugoslav, etc..) is that they usually have a thicker jacket than NATO ammo, and they have a somewhat lower velocity. These two factors combined don't make for a very good defensive round, I guess it's like anything else... You get what you pay for

Defensive rounds are expensive, I have some for each caliber but honestly they are for home defense more then stockpiling hundreds of them. For stock pile, I use just soft point or FMJ - HP if its reasonable. Nothing wrong with the wolf, etc HP's and buying them in bulk. I have HP in my .308 almost exclusively.

The military uses FMJ for combat, so it should be good enough for you. When hundreds of rounds are concerned I really just worry about "having it" not what exactly it is, I go by price.
 

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Personally I don't care for HP's or SP's... The whole idea of 5.56 is to yaw within a target. Ever noticet the cannelure around the bullet where the case neck meets the round? See that on all your other ammo? Probably not.. It's ''crimped'' so that when the round does yaw, it splits around that cannelure and fragments. It takes the right round to do this effectively.

The military currently uses M855 penetrator. It's a good round... For penetrating. Unfortunately due to its composition, weight, and purpose, it can penetrate up to 14 inches of soft tissue before yawing. This is bad news, especially when engaging ''skinnys''.

XM193 on the other hand, can yaw in as little as 4 inches, making it a better man-stopper, but a worse penetrator. XM193 is decently accurate, cheaper than M855, can be fired from all barrel twist rates, and is quite common. It's all I stock.


But if you don't want to take my word for it, or anyone elses, read this... There's more information about 5.56 than you ever wanted to know.

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#milammo
Only bad thing about M193 (and M855 to an extent) is that it comes apart before it gets into the car sometimes. Fine against un-armored opponents, but if they step behind something, it is greatly reduced in efficacy. I still remember reading report after report of officers dumping whole magazines of M193 equivalent into vehicles only to have the suspect surrender with minor flesh wounds or, in some cases, kill the officer(s).

Also, if you believe Fackler's work, the M193 doesn't always yaw, either.

People view hunting with FMJ (unless it's a cape buffalo, etc, yeah, exceptions to every rule...) unethical. I view defending myself with it much the same.

Defensive rounds are expensive, I have some for each caliber but honestly they are for home defense more then stockpiling hundreds of them. For stock pile, I use just soft point or FMJ - HP if its reasonable. Nothing wrong with the wolf, etc HP's and buying them in bulk. I have HP in my .308 almost exclusively.

The military uses FMJ for combat, so it should be good enough for you. When hundreds of rounds are concerned I really just worry about "having it" not what exactly it is, I go by price.
I agree that you don't NEED mag after mag of premium ammo, but "if it's good enough for the military..." has never worked for me. They don't typically issue premium equipment from what I understand. My personal stuff > Anything Uncle Sugar issues to regular enlisted, in my opinion.
 
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