[The Truth]

Hi all,

I have a question for Americans. I posted this in another thread but thought it worthy of a separate thread:

Can you legally use force to protect your individual 2nd Amendment, or is it only an 'after the fact' Right?

What I mean is, if somebody--in uniform or not--tries to take your firearms by force, is it a legal defense to use whatever force necessary to prevent that 2A violation? Or is it law that you have to let the violation occur and go to court after the fact?

 

[CrypticCRICKET]

Florida has laws that say you can't resist a LEO doing it's job. If someone not identifyable as a LEO tries to take your weapon that law doesn't apply and if you fear for your life you can use force.

That's my understanding.

If you were dealing with a LEO who was breaking the laws while trying to take your weapon I think you get into a grey area because they would no longer be doing their duty IMO. Don't know if you'll find a judge to back you against a bad cop though.

I forgot about something that comes into play. Here in Florida there seems to be an unwritten rule among LEO's that any civilian that kills a LEO in uniform or not in uniform gets hunted down and shot to death before they can reach the protections of the law. As a result no judge ever becomes part of the process.

 

[Rascals]

It really doesnt matter. because if they come for them I dont beleive Americans will give them up like you guys did. I also just saw they want you guys to give up all of those assult hammers you have over there. See what happens when you give up your rights. They keep taking and taking and your crime rate went way up. Sucks to give it up huh. Our forfathers warned us about a government who wants to take them away.

 

[NonTimboMala]

See this website,

http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

This lists various supreme court decisions about resisting arrest which i assume would be the next course of action for the LEO who is attempting to confiscate your firearms.

-----------------------------------
edit:
“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

just a couple.

 

[JohnWStiner]

You can't resist the government. You can only sue in court later.

There is no 2nd amendment protection from regular people. A lot of people don't realize that the constitution and bill of rights only protects citizens from the Government, not your neighbor.

 

[Bulldog 6]

Technically you can not interfere with the LEO in the performance of his duties. The down side is that there are LEO's that make it up as they go. You would have to submit until it could be worked out later.
But in a total SHTF...we won't be hindered by "technicalities". BTW - Many LEO's believe as we do regarding great potential for society breakdown.

 

[extreme_survival84]

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" Says the old proverb

"Sir, we have reason to believe you are in possession of firearms, and we're here to confiscate them in accordance with the firearm seizing act" Says the jackbooted thug.

"Yes sir...here they are sir." Says 90 percent of the people who used to say the old proverb

Point is, how many of us talk a good game, but will fold like a napkin when they come to TAKE our rights? It's a good bit of soul searching.

 

[JohnWStiner]

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" Says the old proverb

"Sir, we have reason to believe you are in possession of firearms, and we're here to confiscate them in accordance with the firearm seizing act" Says the jackbooted thug.

"Yes sir...here they are sir." Says 90 percent of the people who used to say the old proverb

Point is, how many of us talk a good game, but will fold like a napkin when they come to TAKE our rights? It's a good bit of soul searching.

I think of the Jews in the holocaust in your example.

At what point in time do you start shooting?

Do you wait until they are loading your family in the cattle car and taking you to the death camps?

Do you wait until they are herding your family into the new ghetto?

Do you wait until the government is lining up hostages to kill in reprisal for sabotage?

In 1935 Hitler took away all the guns.

It is easy to say, "i'll shoot them when they come to my door." 99% won't.

There were some jews that fought back, but most did not. They just walked to the ovens.

 

[12vman]

There were some jews that fought back, but most did not. They just walked to the ovens.

actually they walked into the poison showers and then were thrown into the ovens

 

[Doc_Shane]

Here you can resist an unlawful arrest or seizure.

Others may fold I know I will not, much rather die free than live as a slave.

 

[Vanishing Nomad]

Well, it has always been my understanding that you have the right to resist unlawful action by law enforcement.

However, the reality of it is that you will be shot and killed on sight because they have superior firepower, man power and training than you do.

Your best bet is to give up a drop gun, like a cheap .22 rifle, and a 38 special.

 

[PSYOP Soldier]

A good read on the subject would be the: http://neworleansgungrab.com/

August 29, 2005, was a day no American will ever forget. When Hurricane Katrina, one of the top five-strongest storms ever to build in the Atlantic Basin, slammed into the city of New Orleans, her towering storm surge tested the limits of the flood walls and levees protecting one of America’s largest cities. The surge would find them lacking.
As the city filled and drowned, it descended into mass hysteria and anarchy, and within hours became a place that would reveal to Americans whether their Constitution had any more value than the frayed, fragile, brown parchment on which it is written.

As looters and thugs took over, the city’s leaders turned their crosshairs and iron sights toward the lawful, gun-toting citizens who sought nothing more than to defend themselves from the marauding hordes. In what proved to be the greatest real-life test case of the Second Amendment in American history, America failed miserably.

The Great New Orleans Gun Grab tells the story of New Orleans residents who legally defied mandatory evacuation orders to protect their property, and who were subsequently beaten, harassed and robbed of their guns by the very civil authority that was funded and charged to protect them.

I own and have read this book, couple times, and my blood boils each time....I happened, it will happen again.....

 

[The Truth]

Thanks for the response.

It seems like on paper, using necessary force to resist a violation of your God given Rights is a legal defense. However in practice, it seems to be legally difficult to resist infringement and most Rights are only defended after they've been violated.

Regarding Australia firearms, there is no Right to bear arms here, or even a Bill of Rights for that matter. Seeing as I was in America when the rifles were confiscated in 1996 and the pistols in 2002, I cant speak for them. What I can say is that many farmers here buried their firearms in PVC tubes before the confiscations, some whom I know personally.

Regarding those who will resist confiscations in USA. It's easy for a single man to say or do that, what about if you have dependents (wife and children)? Will you still resist knowing you probably will be killed, or will you live on your knees so you can keep providing for your family and protecting them? Can you abandon your family to uphold the Bill of Rights?

 

[Sparky10]

See this website,

http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

This lists various supreme court decisions about resisting arrest which i assume would be the next course of action for the LEO who is attempting to confiscate your firearms.

-----------------------------------
edit:
“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

just a couple.

Hence there are so many laws on the books that a cop can almost always find one you have broken. Or have one that is easy to frame you for. And then it is your word against his. And the judge believes the cop.

 

[Bouregard]

Well, it has always been my understanding that you have the right to resist unlawful action by law enforcement.

However, the reality of it is that you will be shot and killed on sight because they have superior firepower, man power and training than you do.

Your best bet is to give up a drop gun, like a cheap .22 rifle, and a 38 special.

However do keep in mind that in our globalized world it is quite easy to figure out what guns you own. If you payed with your credit card for example they may come with a list of guns they want from you.

 

[Lord Darwath]

Regarding those who will resist confiscations in USA. It's easy for a single man to say or do that, what about if you have dependents (wife and children)? Will you still resist knowing you probably will be killed, or will you live on your knees so you can keep providing for your family and protecting them? Can you abandon your family to uphold the Bill of Rights?

One could well argue that failing to uphold the Bill of Rights -is- an abandonment of your family. If you give up your arms, then what are you thereafter going to protect your family from? and with what? And if you live your life on your knees, so that your children can go on to live their lives on their knees, how is that to their benefit?

 

[The Truth]

One could well argue that failing to uphold the Bill of Rights -is- an abandonment of your family. If you give up your arms, then what are you thereafter going to protect your family from? and with what? And if you live your life on your knees, so that your children can go on to live their lives on their knees, how is that to their benefit?

Many blacks kept their heads down and lived as slaves to protect their kids who might one day be free.

Not advocating accepting slavery, just illustrating the rationale behind some of those who choose to live in chains.

I'd imagine that most men would, given the choice between keep their firearms and be killed or surrender the firearms and stay alive, choose to live on their knees if it meant they could continue to protect their kids.

Initially I would say I couldn't look my family in the eyes again if I let their Rights be violated and would do what I felt was the right thing; resist the violation knowing I may get killed. Getting killed for protecting your Rights is terrible, but in the end it wasn't you who pulled the trigger on yourself.

So in my case, the right thing would be to resist a violation of my Rights, but I wonder if and when the situation arises, will the wrong decision (allow Rights to be violated) become the right decision?

That might be an on-the-ground call.

 

[Lord Darwath]

Well, since IL just has the FOID and doesn't register individual firearms, I would just lie and tell them I never got around to buying any. And no, they can't come in to check without a search warrant.

 

[azb]

However do keep in mind that in our globalized world it is quite easy to figure out what guns you own. If you payed with your credit card for example they may come with a list of guns they want from you.

In my state, it is perfectly legal for me to buy, sell, or trade firearms with another person who can legally own firearms. No bill of sale or record is required. Therefore, there is absolutely no way for any institution to know what I own, regardless of what any records might say. And the older the records, the less accurate they'll be. Multiply that by the millions of guns in my state, and you can see that any gun grab is not going to be particularly successful.

I'm not going to hand anything over... make them work for it. And I'll bet cash money they won't find a thing. Because I won't have any guns by then. :thumb:

Az

 

[Cuppycake]

The deadly force laws are very strict in MI and say you can only use your gun against someone if they are about to do one of the three follow things to you or another person you are protecting:

1. kill you
2. seriously injure you
3. forcibly sexually penetrate you

Where this gets fuzzy is, if they are trying to take your gun, and succeed, they now have a deadly weapon to possibly kill or seriously injure you. So I'm not sure what the legal ramifications would be if you were to shoot somebody to keep them from taking your gun.

Apparently there is also a law on the books here stating that you are within your legal rights to use your gun against a person in the process of committing a felony, but this law is sketchy and precedence shows it is not always considered justifiable. Gun theft is often a felony, so I guess you might be able to get by with the excuse, assuming you also convinced the court that you feared for your life should the gun be lost.

It's really tricky and depends entirely on the situation. However, if an LEO is asking for your gun you had better comply or you're asking for a world of trouble. Keep in mind that if an officer takes your gun, perhaps during a traffic stop, he/she is doing so for their own protection, and if you are legally able to have that gun they're going to give it back.

I don't want to go off topic, but I see a lot of people on this forum (not directing this at anyone in particular, mind you) that seem to feel that military and LEOs are the enemy. They're just people like you and me, trying to do their jobs and stay safe in the process. They don't know you, and a stranger is just as likely to be a junkie, bankrobbing, baby killer as they are to be a normal person. I think everyone can agree, better safe than sorry. So give those guys a break.