Survivalist Forum banner
1 - 20 of 297 Posts

·
Suffering Your Stupidity
Joined
·
9,580 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a serious question that I'm posing here. I hope that we can discuss this topic without the usual breakdown into caliber wars.


My question is what do you all think about the recent terrorist shooting in San Bernadino, CA where the terrorists used AR15s (.223) rifles achieving a kill ratio of less than 50%? What I mean is that I'm wondering if the use of this round helped people to survive the slaughter? There were 14 people killed and 21 injured, a couple of the injured were even shot multiple times so I assume that some of the dead were also shot more than once. I also wonder if the damage (loss of life) would have been greater if .308 was used instead? My take is that yes .308 would have killed more, it's something that I've bet on myself in my own choices, but not something that I know to be true - just a theory.

I realize that this is all just opinions that we can offer but I wonder if anyone else has thought about this or has any thoughts on the subject of this shooting and the caliber used?


Again, please let's not do a caliber war, we can discuss/debate without being idiots.
 

·
What hell, pay attention
Joined
·
8,326 Posts
Anything that doesnt hit a kill switch, isnt going to bring about instant incapacitation, or death. Just because someone or something is shot at and hit, doesnt mean they are going to die, or even be out of the fight.

There were plenty of WWI/WWII and a myriad of other conflicts, that used .30 and larger rounds, and people survived, and even survived multiple hits.

As with anything, you have to put the rounds where they need to go, if you want results.

Also, theres also no such thing as a bad hit, unless youre the one taking them. Some are just better than others. ;)
 

·
American fearmaker
Joined
·
14,249 Posts
Any round can be deadly if the right tactics are used with it.

With the .223/5.56 family of rounds a smart shooter will use multiple shots, like double taps, delivered into killing zones. With a scoped small bore rifle, the shooter will use the rifle to deliver precision shots to the head or heart area of a target. The nice thing about the smaller bore .223 type rifle is that its lower recoil allows for quicker recovery to get on target and its higher speed projectiles allow for better accuracy at closer ranges. So, basically, yes, the .223 caliber rifle does work in the right hands of the well trained operator.

So, to make the rifle work right, you need to consider getting good training and have lots of practice under your belt. Also consider using the 62 grain ammo over the lighter 55 grain bullets. I know 7 grains of weight may not seem like much but every little bit helps when you may be In a survival situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Obviously Not all hits are instantly fatal... but in the days and weeks after the shot, those hit w 308 die more and suffer more crippling injuries. This is due to superior terminal ballistics.
 

·
Father of 11 husband of 1
Joined
·
10,936 Posts
Just because he took target practice with his sister doesn't mean he could hit what he was aiming at. It is unknown if she had any experience either. The family seemed to think that he only owned handguns so perhaps they had never shot the rifles before.
For the distance on the first shooting, it should have been more than adequate. The shootout might be another story
 

·
What hell, pay attention
Joined
·
8,326 Posts
From historical reports around the world, the smaller, high velocity caliber rounds have created more horrific wounds, especially at the closer ranges most encounters seem to be anymore.

As an example, the Afghans called the Russian 5.45x39 the "poison bullet" because of the wounds it created, which were nothing like the .30 wounds they were used to seeing, from the guns they were accustomed to. Our 5.56 brought about the same results.

Shooting little critters in the yard with both, the .223's literally blow things up, and often into small pieces. The .30's usually just punch a hole through. Both accomplished the same task, one was just a lot messier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Yes the afghans called it poison bc it created lingering wounds... unlike the 30 Cal which was unlike lingering poison bc it just kills you outright. Read between the lines.

Further I watch hickock45 shoot melons and pumpkins and cinder blocks. The 30 caliber rounds always blow things up better than the varmint rounds. It's just a fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
A .223 with a soft nose bullet and proper shot placement is deadly, the hogs I have shot had a large area of meat turned to mush from them. In a confined place like a room there is no velocity loss. A steel ammo can will be shredded even with full metal jacket ammo, as was demonstrated to my platoon in basic training in the U.S army, and its a lot less effective than
a soft point.
 

·
Why do you ask? 2 Dogs!
Joined
·
13,890 Posts
I think maybe the 308 may have killed a few more but not a whole lot more.

He had a 40% kill ratio, we don't necessarily know where the people that survived were hit

If they were hit in the arm with a 223, a 308 wouldn't have killed them either

Question is: Would he have got off as many shots with the 308?

Sometimes it's not so much the weapon you employ but the tactics you use with that weapon

If you really think about it, why just 35 people shot when there were 2 shooters with semi auto rifles and multiple mags?

His kill ratio may not have been near as bad as his hit ratio.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,012 Posts
The .223 is not enough. Noone ever survived being shot in ww1 or ww2 when full power .30 calibers were used. Thats why all purple hearts from those wars were awarded post humus.


Seriously though...yes, the .223 is fine. As with any round...pleacement, and design. FMJ .308 does less to put down animals than a well designed .223 round. I'd imagine on people it's similar. Friend of mine culls hundreds of animals a year and has observed reproducible trends. Great data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,012 Posts
I think maybe the 308 may have killed a few more but not a whole lot more.

He had a 40% kill ratio, we don't necessarily know where the people that survived were hit

If they were hit in the arm with a 223, a 308 wouldn't have killed them either

Question is: Would he have got off as many shots with the 308?

Sometimes it's not so much the weapon you employ but the tactics you use with that weapon

If you really think about it, why just 35 people shot when there were 2 shooters with semi auto rifles and multiple mags?

His kill ratio may not have been near as bad as his hit ratio.
DC sniper used a .223. His kill ratio was much higher.
 

·
Paratrooper X
Joined
·
3,537 Posts
The .223 is not enough. Noone ever survived being shot in ww1 or ww2 when full power .30 calibers were used. Thats why all purple hearts from those wars were awarded post humus.


Seriously though...yes, the .223 is fine. As with any round...pleacement, and design. FMJ .308 does less to put down animals than a well designed .223 round. I'd imagine on people it's similar. Friend of mine culls hundreds of animals a year and has observed reproducible trends. Great data.
30 cal rounds are very survivable according to Army Dr's. 30 cal FMJ creates the same type of wound that ball pistols calibers create at short ranges. A nice fat initial cavity that shrinks back and then swelling closes the cavity and the body does a very good job at sealing itself...... In most cases

223 on the other hand does the same but fragments creating slices in the body which the body has a harder time to self seal

Small caliber high velocity is where the money is
 

·
Awesome
Joined
·
17,448 Posts
a lot of you guys are citing the 5.45x39 as having great ballistics, this is due to its bullet design, its designed from the ground up to tumble, a long bullet that is much lighter on the front end by its hollowed out nose cavity designed to crush on impact to destabilize the round and result in an immediate yaw creating a greater wound cavity

5.56 when it first came out yawed more or less by accident given it had a much slower twist rate that resulted in easy destabilization, but the downside is that just about anything could send it tumbling, even leaves.. now you have 1-7 to 1-9 twist rates which properly stabilize the bullets in 5.56 and removes that yaw, using either plan FMJ projectiles or M855 designed to fragment on high velocity impacts that as barrels get shorter and shorter, so does the distance in which it will actually fragment

so, comparing these two together is really not accurate, sure they both produce about the same amount of kinetic energy, similar bullet weights, flight paths, etc, but that bullet design sets 5.45 apart making it more lethal and more reliable at a much greater range of distances since the tumbling effect doesnt rely on velocity

__

that said, a .308 round may carry more momentum and deeper penetration which is more likely to result in straight-through penetration with FMJ projectiles, doing a lot of damage no doubt, but its why the 5.45 has been able to create similar wounding characteristics.. now if you used soft point bullets in the .308 or some of the plastic tipped stuff designed to smash back into the cartridge to expand allowing the .308 to dump off more energy and create a better wound channel then hands down it would be even more lethal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
30 cal rounds are very survivable according to Army Dr's. 30 cal FMJ creates the same type of wound that ball pistols calibers create at short ranges. A nice fat initial cavity that shrinks back and then swelling closes the cavity and the body does a very good job at sealing itself...... In most cases

223 on the other hand does the same but fragments creating slices in the body which the body has a harder time to self seal

Small caliber high velocity is where the money is


As a sniper, Chris Kyle was often asked about his weapons. While in training, he used four different rifles in order to know which weapon was the most useful in the given situation. In the field, he used the following:[8]
a semi-automatic 7.62 NATO Mk 11 sniper rifle (patrol)
a 5.56 NATO Mk 12 Designated Marksman Rifle modified with the lower receiver off a M-4 to get a collapsible stock and allow full auto (for urban patrol)
a .300 Winchester Magnum M24 sniper rifle with MacMillan stocks and customized barrels, later replaced with a .300 Winchester Magnum Accuracy International. These two rifles were the ones he mostly used while in overwatch

So, when controllability under FA was an issue, Kyle favored 5.56. Otherwise 30 caliber. Not many of use have any FA guns so 5.56 has little rationale for civilians
 

·
Paratrooper X
Joined
·
3,537 Posts
a lot of you guys are citing the 5.45x39 as having great ballistics, this is due to its bullet design, its designed from the ground up to tumble, a long bullet that is much lighter on the front end by its hollowed out nose cavity designed to crush on impact to destabilize the round and result in an immediate yaw creating a greater wound cavity

5.56 when it first came out yawed more or less by accident given it had a much slower twist rate that resulted in easy destabilization, but the downside is that just about anything could send it tumbling, even leaves.. now you have 1-7 to 1-9 twist rates which properly stabilize the bullets in 5.56 and removes that yaw, using either plan FMJ projectiles or M855 designed to fragment on high velocity impacts that as barrels get shorter and shorter, so does the distance in which it will actually fragment

so, comparing these two together is really not accurate, sure they both produce about the same amount of kinetic energy, similar bullet weights, flight paths, etc, but that bullet design sets 5.45 apart making it more lethal and more reliable at a much greater range of distances since the tumbling effect doesnt rely on velocity

__

that said, a .308 round may carry more momentum and deeper penetration which is more likely to result in straight-through penetration with FMJ projectiles, doing a lot of damage no doubt, but its why the 5.45 has been able to create similar wounding characteristics.. now if you used soft point bullets in the .308 or some of the plastic tipped stuff designed to smash back into the cartridge to expand allowing the .308 to dump off more energy and create a better wound channel then hands down it would be even more lethal
ALLLL rifle bullets tumble because they are ALLL heavy at the back end. MOST rifle bullets don't do a lot of damage that is caused by tumbling. 5.45 is pretty much the only rifle bullet that causes damage from tumbling and that's due to its length
 
1 - 20 of 297 Posts
Top