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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This wiki page is about an interesting shootout. Real life application of revolvers and other weapons in combat that helped the FBI decide on the 40 S&W round.

It brings up some interesting weapons in use that I see people talk about on this site. The min 14 and the 357 magnum revolver. If you're looking for real life examples of combat take a look at this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
 

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Live Secret, Live Happy
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This wiki page is about an interesting shootout. Real life application of revolvers and other weapons in combat that helped the FBI decide on the 40 S&W round.

It brings up some interesting weapons in use that I see people talk about on this site. The min 14 and the 357 magnum revolver. If you're looking for real life examples of combat take a look at this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
I remember when the 40 sw was developed it was often called the short and weak (compared to the full power 10 mm auto). None the less, it has proven to have the bullet wt and integrity to penetrate obstructions and still transfer plenty of energy into a bad guy. It makes it a good choice for the police.

It also make it a good choice to a defensive gun that might be used on bad guys hiding behind solid wood doors or behind car windshields. I carry it as a defensive gun when bow hunting in bear country.

No, it not as awesome as my 44 mag. But it weighs a lot less.
 

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This story has interesting parallels to the Prohibition-era shootouts between the FBI and gangsters. The FBI started carrying heavier weapons after going up against Thompson submachine guns and BAR's.
 

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I agree with survivalguy72, the FBI made about every mistake they possibly could have made during that stakeout.

I can only imagine what would have happened if Platt and Matix had chosen M1A's or HK91's (which were both available at that time) as their primary longarms instead of a Mini 14 and a shotgun.

This even showed what a determined person can accomplish, and the FBI agents who were assigned this case knew both Platt and Matix were well armed, well trained, and well motivated. They should have made better choices while conducting this felony stop.
 

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Watching, Waiting....
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I remember an instructor teaching a class one time telling us that a certain high percentage like 80% ( I am unsure of the exact number) complete their mission.

Being shot in the line of duty, I can tell you that no gunshot wound is something to laugh at. But for a person to survive 11 gun shot wounds to have been eventually killed by the 12th is a scary ordeal. Practice as much as you can, then practice some more, then remember the first rule of a gunfight.

DON'T ENTER A GUNFIGHT WITH A PISTOL THAT DOES NOT START WITH A "4"

Get a .40, .44, .45. Get expensive super exotic nasty, super effective mean deadly ammunition and shoot the somebeech with all of them. Reload - repeat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Caliber had little to do with that thing going sideways.
Yea I think the reason it went side ways was because the FBI wasn't sure what to expect, they were acting on a hunch.

Yea I didn't mean to imply that caliber was a deciding factor but it was interesting to read the the .357 didn't necessarily drop the bad guys as expected. The story also stands as good example of going into a situation blind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I agree with survivalguy72, the FBI made about every mistake they possibly could have made during that stakeout.

I can only imagine what would have happened if Platt and Matix had chosen M1A's or HK91's (which were both available at that time) as their primary longarms instead of a Mini 14 and a shotgun.

This even showed what a determined person can accomplish, and the FBI agents who were assigned this case knew both Platt and Matix were well armed, well trained, and well motivated. They should have made better choices while conducting this felony stop.
Yea ur right. I think the difference is that the FBI doesn't practice as much at stopping a suspect as a police officer would. I think a police officer would have approached the situation with a little more caution/preparation. I don't know maybe I'm wrong.

I also thought the story was messed in that the two criminals killed some some one at the firing range just to get there gun, pretty messed up, makes me paranoid when I go to the range ...
 

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It's doubtful .40's would have made a difference, or even 10mm. The 9mm Silver Tips probably weren't the best choice of ammo, they were known to lack penetration back then, but there were several lethal wounds delivered by the 9mm's. The problem was, none of them were immediately incapacitating wounds... severed arteries and such. **** poor planning and bad luck had more to do with the fate of those agents than 9mm did.
 

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It went sideways primarily because of the most basic mistake anyone can make... thinking the just shooting someone is enough to stop them.

Don't ever count on it. Kill them. And then kill them again.
 

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an interesting look at how past felony stops were handled

i think the .40 S&W is a great cartrige and probably would have helped but IMO, the real mistakes made in 86 were that the FBI had forgot the hard lessons of the past when dealing with hardend criminals.

in stark contrast to how the miami felony stop was executed i offer
as just one example, bonnie and clyde.
weapons used by LE at that stop were a mixture of .45 cal. thompsons, BAR's and atleast one 30/30 as i recall, during their career bonnie and clyde used an impressive arsenal far beyond anything matrix and platt had and the couple were involved in more then one shootout with LEO's.
B and C arsenal
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...-4kcoK&usg=AFQjCNGxMD-SaSP5nUyW-d9YqQc3lJDR6g


While waiting along Highway 154 between Sailes and Gibsland, Louisiana, the six lawmen who planned to ambush Bonnie and Clyde confiscated Iverson Methvin's old truck, put it on a car jack, and removed one of its tires. The truck was then strategically placed along the road with the expectation that if Clyde saw Iverson's car pulled to the side, he would then slow down and investigate.

Sure enough, that is exactly what happened. At approximately 9:15 a.m. on May 23, 1934, Clyde was driving a tan Ford V-8 down the road when he spotted Iverson's truck. When he slowed down, the six police officers opened fire. With no advanced warning, Bonnie and Clyde had little time to react. Both Clyde and Bonnie died quickly from over 130 bullets that were fired at the couple. When the shooting ended, the policemen found that the back of Clyde's head had exploded and part of Bonnie's right hand had been shot off.

Both Bonnie and Clyde's bodies were taken back to Dallas where they were put on public view. Large crowds gathered to get a glimpse of the famous pair. Although Bonnie had requested that she be buried with Clyde, they were buried separately in two different cemeteries according to their families' wishes.

death scene newsreel and yes those are two FA Browning Automatic Rifles!
http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...+clyde&usg=AFQjCNGyJ6jZyfOT3rzzvROprjUK5-Es9A
 

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Looks like rain to me.
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The car they were in is on display at a casino between the Californis Nevada border and ReThe cops Messed Bonnie and Clyde up.

As for the Miami FBI shootout, the FBI's idea of a Felony Car Stop was to crash into the bag guys car. One of the agents lost his glasses in the crash and couldn't see to shoot back. One had his pistol on the seat and lost that in the crash.

Platt and Matix were motivated and had practiced what they were going to do. Shoot til they stop being a threat.
 

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Look- there are NO handguns which are reliable 1 shot stoppers

I have spoken to forensic pathologists, I get to meet them in my line of work,and asked them all the same question

Can you tell what a person was shot with by the wound channel and permanant wound cavity? It has been universally answered with NO

One of the docs I questioned stated " With modern hollowpoint ammunition, anyone stating they knew with certainty the caliber of the weapon used is a fool or a liar", and " If expressing a definate answer before the bullet is recovered is TV and not reality"

Shoot what you have, with good modern ammunition, and hit a vital area, and keep shooting until they or you are out of the fight. All the rest is gun shop BS, and internet commando opinions.
 

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American fearmaker
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Time and again police firearms instructors and researchers get shoved to the back of the bus while "the powers that be" choose ineffective weaponry based upon public opinion. Oh! We can't have the black rifle because some people find it offensive or because the smaller, weaker officers can't shoot it right or because because so-and-so has a physical disability. So instead of going with the right guns and right ammo, we're going to put everybody's life at risk to be politically correct. After J. Edgar Hoover died, the FBI was emasculated by in-house wimps and they became so political it was unreal. They are still like that to this day. If some politician tells them to jump they do it without hesitation.

A few years ago a "test" was given to various police firearms instructors which revolved about criminal frames of mind and various police agencies. During one part of the test a veteran instructor was asked what would he think if he was a criminal who found himself surrounded by the modern day FBI. The instructor thought for a minute and finally said, "Surrounded by the FBI? That's like saying I would surrounded by accountants and attorneys. I'd shoot." When that analogy was placed in the interviewer's head, he then understood what street toughs are now thinking about how specialized the FBI has become. Another instructor explained that Matix and Platt, the bank robbers, probably hoped that they would be confronted by the FBI because local sheriff's police and Miami Police were less likely to hesitate in a shootout confrontation. So until a number of agencies get completely away from limitations being placed on field officers because of politics or political correctness, there will be epic failures like the Miami Shootout involving the local FBI agents.
 

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Your move Sparky...
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Get a .40, .44, .45. Get expensive super exotic nasty, super effective mean deadly ammunition and shoot the somebeech with all of them. Reload - repeat.
This quote goes down on my permanent list...
 

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Welcome to the rice field
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The story says nothing about the weapons used and everything about shooting skills (or lack there of).
 

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I have a funny comment to share. I had a forensic pathologists from Youngs town Ohio in one of my tactical firearm classes. At lunch he was sharing with the group how 380ACP was not a good round for self defence. He said and I quote here " I have exaimed several leathal gun shot victoms were 380 was the know calibor and I can tell you it does a poor job from a balistic stand point"

I then jumped in with my own comment. " thats way I pack a 45 doc. when I want them dead, I want them real dead not just 380 dead" I mean if there on your table and your exaiming them I presume there dead. Is there another kind of dead I don't know about?

Personally I think the 40 was just a gimmic to sell more guns, new guns. We already had the 9MM and 45ACP

Reminds me of the mid size bicycle. Most ppl go from the standard 20" to the full size 26' but then the come out with the 24". The in between size... why??? to sell more bikes of course.

Ok 40 cal lovers... now tell me why I would put away my 45 for the 40... Educate me
 

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American fearmaker
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You shouldn't drop your .45 for a .40 caliber handgun unless you (a.) want to do so and (b.) feel comfortable carrying a .40 caliber handgun. I switch back and forth between a Glock .40 caliber gun and a Sig P-220 in .45 caliber. Both are good guns and both work for me in different ways. You do or use what you feel is right for you.
 

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You shouldn't drop your .45 for a .40 caliber handgun unless you (a.) want to do so and (b.) feel comfortable carrying a .40 caliber handgun. I switch back and forth between a Glock .40 caliber gun and a Sig P-220 in .45 caliber. Both are good guns and both work for me in different ways. You do or use what you feel is right for you.
I never plained too. 1911A1 still the standard for which all other guns wish they could be.

I just wanted to hear what 40 lovers have to say. :thumb:
 
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