as it says, do not exceed cowboy loads, cap and ball revolver cylinders and frames are not designed to take more than black powder loads and equivalents.. my recommendation for your 45lc loads would actually be to stick with black powder cartridges and soft lead SWC bullets

 

I know that would definitely be the safest route but I did want to stay away from black powder and use smokeless cartridges. That was the main reason for buying the cylinder (which actually cost more than the gun itself)

I read somewhere that the "cowboy only" warning was mainly to prevent a lawsuit and the guns and cylinders could actually handle more. I know the cylinders are made of 4150 arsenal grade steel and the revolver itself has a steel frame with the top strap, making it stronger than the open top revolvers.

Although i'm definitely not gonna try and fire any ruger only or +P loads out of it. Even cowboy loads vary up and down in pressure and go up to like 800 fps i think.

Like I mentioned I did plan on using it in the wood so worst case scenario if I had to use it to defend myself against a black bear or something, I'd like to have the hottest loads the gun could safely handle in it.

 

if i recall the frames on those are only mildly heat treated if at all, many cap and ball revolvers even have brass frames (which is a very bad idea for a conversion).. youre pretty much limited to 14kpsi loads which will put you right around the 255 grain at around the 800-1000fps mark depending on barrel length.. if you want a convertible C&B revolver that can handle modern loads fairly well id look into getting a ruger old army, you can get a 6-shot 45 colt cylinder for those

what you can get from a converted C&B revolver is going to be dwarfed even by a 45acp and most here wouldnt even consider 45acp for black bear defense

 

I did look into old army's and it's a shame they're discontinued because now even used ones look like they cost an arm and a leg. But do you think that ammo that I linked would work then, because it's exactly 255 grain at 1000fps and I have the 7.5" barrel.

Edit:

I looked at the ballistics of the two rounds and even the 45 acp +P have around 500 ft lbs muzzle energy and the ammo I linked is rated at 566 ft lbs. Maybe I'm not taking something else into account though.

 

Which conversion cylinder did you buy - Kirst or R&D?

 

And I ordered it from Taylor's and Co.

 

I think you would be ok with that loading. Figure a BP loaded 45 Colt with the powder touching the bullet (compressed BP) = about the same muzzle velocity 1000fps.

I'd practice with the lighter loaded cowboy stuff though.

Which 1858 did you get? Pietta short barrel?

I have the standard length Pietta 1858 NMA with a Kirst Conversion Cylinder. I recently picked up 2 Pietta 1860 Army revolvers. One of which came with a Taylor's R&D conversion.

Finding I enjoy shooting BP more than 45 Colt conversion cylinders.

If you get a chance give BP or even Pyrodex pellets a try - lots of fun!

 

Absolutely for regular target shooting I'd use the lighter cowboy loads and save the heavier stuff for defense. But I have the Pietta 7.5" barrel w/ the Taylors conversion cylinder. Awesome looking pistol though. Devil Anse and Jim Vance carried one, how can you go wrong lol.

 

Hows that work using a .45 caliber cylinder in a .44 caliber gun?

 

the 44 caliber guns actually had about a .451-454" bore.. 44 colt was created with a heeled bullet designed to fit the bore size with a bored through conversion cylinder in early colt conversion revolvers since S&W patents prevented them from directly creating cartridge revolvers.. the 44 colt was outside lubricated which caused problems so colt switched to an inside lubricated cartridge firing the same bullet diameter and this created the 45 colt.. so it was no coincidence the 45 colt and 44 cap and balls have the same bore size

 

Gotcha. Thanks.

 

Black powder and smokeless powder have different pressure curves. A 1000fps load with smokeless powder IS NOT the same as a 1000fps load of BP.

A 1858 Remington is a solid frame and in theory....would stand more pressure than say, an 1851 open top. Neither are designed for smokeless powder!

 

I agree that black and smokeless have different pressure curves. But the modern 1858 reproductions with the conversion cylinder will definitely handle lots of moderate .45 Colt smokeless loads. I put several thousand rounds through one in SASS competition with no issues at all, other than being slow to load and unload.

 

Uberti basically sells the same gun:
http://www.uberti.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

1858 w/ factory conversion rated for all SAAMI spec ammo. Even there open tops are rated for all SAAMI spec ammo.
http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-manuals/conversion_model.pdf

 

pretty sure those use a larger, stronger frame, which is why they can handle six shots of 45 colt while a more accurate cap and ball with a conversion cylinder can only manage 5

 

You could be right but I don't see anywhere where it states it was made any stronger. It says that the cylinder was replaced and a loading gate with an ejector assembly was added to the blued steel frame. I'm sure if they upgraded or strengthened the frame that they would specify because that would cost them extra money.

And the downside to buying a conversion gun is that it requires an FFL and has to be registered as a handgun, unlike bp revolvers with the drop in cylinder.

 

if youre just looking to ghost gun something, get an 80% 1911 frame, if you have a tablesaw, drill press, or router table there are simple ways you can set these tools up to cut your rails and barrel channel for a completed product.. chamber in 10mm, 38 super +P, 45acp, 460 rowland and either ones going to give you more energy than a cap and ball ever could, plus penetration youre going to need for bear defense and faster reloads

 

I own both barrel lengths. I also use this load in a 1860 Colt w/conversion.

Here you go:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=413988

In a Steel Frame use standard 45 colt brass, large pistol primer, 200 gr lead bullets and 6 gr of Trail Boss. This is a very easy round to load. At 6 gr, the load is in the middle of the pressure scale for this round and Trail Boss.

 

Recommend you keep the loads as advised by the maker.
Sounds to me like you need to buy a Ruger .44 mag as a carry gun where there may be big unfriendly beasties. JMO

 

Unfortunately a misdemeanor DUI conviction prohibits me from owning anything legally defined as a "firearm" by federal law. So I'm pretty much limited to bp guns/conversion cylinders until I can seek an expungement for it. Im not sure about the legality of the 1911 idea for someone in my position but I would bet it's prohibited.

So until I can deal with that, I'll be relying on the Remington for protection.

 

no, putting a conversion cylinder on your BP revolver will be illegal too, youre stuck with cap and ball and ONLY cap and ball if you wish to remain legal

 

Be careful. Once converted w/cylinder to fire a cartridge, if caught, they will consider it a firearm.


See 18 USC 921(a)(16)(a) As used in this chapter—

(1)...

(2)...
...

(16)The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof...

 

hmm, section B I and II can be contradictory but seems to exclude cartridges which no longer exist.. i wonder if a 44 colt conversion would apply?.. a cylinder could be bored straight through, back end machined off for the loading gate and since its no longer in production anywhere, perhaps that would slide?.. 44 colt however can be made by cutting 44 special brass down and using a .454" heeled bullet available via moulds

 

So it looks like I just wasted a couple hundred dollars if I don't want to risk becoming a felon...

Welcome to the U.S.A. where our government can disarm a citizen and bar them from the 2nd amendment because of one non-violent, non-drug related, and non-firearm related misdemeanor. Land of the free, huh?

 

See...that's the hazard of getting legal information/advice from the internet.

The citation above, Title 18 USC (United States Code) refers to the federal (as in BATFE) definition of what is a firearm as it referrs to what a dealer may deal in and what reporting paperwork would be required. It has little to do with the definition of a firearm being possessed by a felon.

There is a difference between State law (all fifty of'em) and federal law as it relates to convictions and what constitutes an offense where someone loses their rights to have firearms and vote. There is also a difference between the States as to the definition of a firearm which a muzzle loader DEFINITELY falls under in most States.

Yes you can buy a cap and ball pistol or a muzzle loader without going through the paperwork requirement for "real" guns but for a felon, its still not legal to possess. I am not aware of any State that allows felons to possess antique or muzzle loading (cap & ball included) firearms. Period.

What is a felony? The definition (and the crimes it matches up to) vary by State AND....this also includes domestic violense offenses even if they weren't felonies. Generally misdemeanors won't lose you your gun rights; in my State a misdemeanor convoction for DUI wouldn't BUT...you can get charged under the statute as a felony and that would lose you your civil rights.

So...know the law. Know what you can and cannot do and follow the law. Sorry pard.

 

It wasn't a felony.. it was an M1 misdemeanor and I'm not prohibited by the state. Pennsylvania says anyone except for felons can own guns. The feds say anyone except for felons and those that have M1 misdemeanors.

So, the state says yes and the federal government says no. Since the feds don't consider muzzle loaders firearms, I'm legal in my state.

My record is clean aside from the DUI. I was young and stupid and I have been law abiding ever since. I'm not gonna get into a rant here but the fact that I'm serving a life long sentence of permanently losing my civil rights over this is appalling.

 

I'd get rid of or bury that conversion cylinder and a case of ammo somewhere off your property - "for the day."

You can still enjoy, shoot, and possess the BP Revolver. Pick up some spare BP cylinders. You might find someone that will trade you a couple standard BP cylinders for that conversion cylinder.



Frequently asked questions from the ATFE below:

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download

1. Can a person prohibited by law from possessing a firearm acquire and use a black powder muzzle loading firearm?
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) prohibits felons and certain other persons from possessing or receiving firearms and ammunition (“prohibited persons”). These categories can be found at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) and in
http://atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf.

However, Federal law does not prohibit these persons from possessing or receiving an antique firearm. The term “antique firearm” means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade. Further, any muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or pistol which is designed to use black powder or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition, is an “antique firearm” unless it (1) incorporates a firearm frame or receiver; (2) is a firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or (3) is a muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), (a)(16).

Thus, a muzzle loading weapon that meets the definition of an “antique firearm” is not a firearm and may lawfully be received and possessed by a prohibited person under the GCA. In addition, the GCA defines the term “ammunition” to mean “ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.” Because an “antique firearm” is not a “firearm,” it would is lawful for a prohibited person to receive or possess black powder designed for use in an “antique firearm.” Also, the Federal explosives laws do not make it unlawful for a prohibited person to acquire and possess black powder in quantities not exceeding fifty pounds if it is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in “antique firearms.” See 18 U.S.C. § 845(a)(5)

By contrast, a prohibited person may not receive or possess black powder firearms that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. ATF has classified certain muzzle loading models as firearms. All of these models incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. These muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16), and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3). Furthermore, as firearms, these and similar models, regardless of the barrel installed on the firearm or provided with the firearm, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out a Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473, and are subject to a National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) check. Felons and other prohibited persons may not lawfully receive or possess these firearms or ammunition.

The following is a list of weapons that load from the muzzle and are classified as firearms, not antiques, under the GCA, because they incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm:-2-

• Savage Model 10ML (early, 1st version)
• Mossberg 500 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel
• Remington 870 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel
• Mauser 98 rifle with muzzle loading barrel
• SKS rifle with muzzle loading barrel
• PB sM10 pistol with muzzle loading barrel
• H&R/New England Firearm Huntsman
• Thompson Center Encore/Contender
• Rossi .50 muzzle loading rifle

This list is not complete and frequently changes. There may be other muzzle loaders also classified as firearms. As noted, any muzzle loading weapon that is built on a firearm frame or receiver falls within the definition of a firearm provided in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).

Finally, even though a prohibited person may lawfully possess an antique firearm under Federal law, State or local law may classify such weapons as “firearms” subject to regulation. Any person considering acquiring a black powder weapon should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at www.naag.org

 

So now that we know the cartridge conversion is prohibited, I wanted to change gears a little bit with this.

Since a black powder revolver is legal to possess for someone with only a federal level prohibition, Is it also legal to carry? I know concealed carry is out because PICS (PA background check) would deny you for both purchasing a firearm and a license to carry.

So would someone who is legally allowed to own a bp revolver be allowed to open carry with it as well? And also take it hunting/fishing with a valid sportsman's permit?

I do plan to acquire professional legal advice about this when I can afford to spend a little money but until then I was wondering if anyone had any experience or knowledge about it.

 

What troubles me is in the document on the first page of the OC thread, the Training manual to help guide officers in dealing with a person open carrying. It says that if the officer knows the person to be prohibited by state OR federal law that he is able to confiscate the weapon and make an arrest. Even though in my case, even under federal prohibition, a black powder revolver would be legal to own.

The question is, which definition of a "firearm" would the police go by, because the state and federal laws have two different definitions.

 

Let me rephrase the question. How did we get to the point where someone can be locked up for multiple years for what is by definition a lessor crime?

 

Not very hot at all. The original guns were designed to fire with percussion caps with a nipple and a hole. Now you are making it into a cartridge gun with much higher pressure.

The analogy would be the old Army Trapdoor Springfield. Modern .45/70 ammo will blow them up.

 

Not very hot at all. The original guns were designed to fire with percussion caps with a nipple and a hole. Now you are making it into a cartridge gun with much higher pressure.

The analogy would be the old Army Trapdoor Springfield. Modern .45/70 ammo will blow them up.

Why don’t you guys leave the 1858 Remington alone for people that cannot possess firearms by a colt 45 or something similar. You’re converting these for firearms so that people with Felonise, Like mine from 1989 unable to process the 1858 Remington. Why? Why don’t you go buy a Real firearm and leave these black powder to those of us who cannot buy or possess a real firearm. It’s been 32 years since I committed a felony or any other crime or misdemeanor. My sentence is over with and I need a weapon to protect my home my wife and myself so you jack wagons who won the convert black powder to signifier cartridges need to just stick to buying firearms, that is farms according to the law.

 

You live in PA correct?

You might want to read this and do you own checking into PA laws for owning, transporting, concealed carry or open carry antique and or replica antique firearms.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2012/05/28/as-a-prohibited-person

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=61

As a prohibited person in PA, can you possess antique firearms?Frequently, individuals will inquire as to whether they can possess an antique firearm if they are prohibited from owning firearms. Under federal law, specifically the Gun Control Act, a prohibited person may possess an antique firearm, pursuant to . Federal law, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921, defines an antique firearm as(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.Thus, a muzzle loading weapon that meets the definition of an “antique firearm” is not a firearm and may lawfully be received and possessed by a prohibited person under the GCA. In addition, the GCA defines the term “ammunition” to mean “ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.” Because an “antique firearm” is not a “firearm,” it would is lawful for a prohibited person to receive or possess black powder designed for use in an “antique firearm.” Also, the Federal explosives laws do not make it unlawful for a prohibited person to acquire and possess black powder in quantities not exceeding fifty pounds if it is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in “antique firearms.” See 18 U.S.C. § 845(a)(5)However, under Pennsylvania law, 18 PA.C.S. 6118, “Subsection (a) [stating that this subsection does not apply to antique firearms] shall not apply to the extent that such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are concealed weapons as provided in section 6106 (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license), nor shall it apply to the provisions of section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) if such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are suitable for use.” Accordingly, if you are prohibited pursuant to 18 PA.C.S. 6105, you cannot possess antique firearms, even though federal law would allow you.If you have questions regarding whether you are prohibited or whether you can possess antique firearms, give our office a call today to schedule an appointment.-in-pa-can-you-possess-antique-firearms/

As a prohibited person in PA, can you possess antique firearms?
Frequently, individuals will inquire as to whether they can possess an antique firearm if they are prohibited from owning firearms. Under federal law, specifically the Gun Control Act, a prohibited person may possess an antique firearm, pursuant to . Federal law, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921, defines an antique firearm as

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Thus, a muzzle loading weapon that meets the definition of an “antique firearm” is not a firearm and may lawfully be received and possessed by a prohibited person under the GCA. In addition, the GCA defines the term “ammunition” to mean “ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.” Because an “antique firearm” is not a “firearm,” it would is lawful for a prohibited person to receive or possess black powder designed for use in an “antique firearm.” Also, the Federal explosives laws do not make it unlawful for a prohibited person to acquire and possess black powder in quantities not exceeding fifty pounds if it is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in “antique firearms.” See 18 U.S.C. § 845(a)(5)

However, under Pennsylvania law, 18 PA.C.S. 6118, “Subsection (a) [stating that this subsection does not apply to antique firearms] shall not apply to the extent that such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are concealed weapons as provided in section 6106 (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license), nor shall it apply to the provisions of section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) if such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are suitable for use.” Accordingly, if you are prohibited pursuant to 18 PA.C.S. 6105, you cannot possess antique firearms, even though federal law would allow you.

If you have questions regarding whether you are prohibited or whether you can possess antique firearms, give our office a call today to schedule an appointment.

 

I just purchased an 1858 Pietta Remington .44 cal and a .45lc conversion cylinder to go along with it. Now the instructions say not to exceed cowboy loads but I was wondering if anyone had experience shooting anything hotter than those. Something good enough for defense in the wild while I'm out fishing and such.

Specifically something like this.
Buffalo Bore Ammo Outdoorsman 45 Colt (Long Colt) 255 Grain Lead

These don't exceed 1000 fps and they're gas checked lead rounds which the instructions also say to use only lead and nothing that's coated so I'm thinking they shouldn't be a problem.

I'm just looking for a few opinions and if anyone has knowledge or experience with bp conversions and the type of ammo that can be used.

Im shooting HSM 325 geain bear defense loads through my pietta 44 to 45 long colt. There too long so i shaved them down so they would fit my cylinder. So far no explosion or any mishaps

I just purchased an 1858 Pietta Remington .44 cal and a .45lc conversion cylinder to go along with it. Now the instructions say not to exceed cowboy loads but I was wondering if anyone had experience shooting anything hotter than those. Something good enough for defense in the wild while I'm out fishing and such.

Specifically something like this.
Buffalo Bore Ammo Outdoorsman 45 Colt (Long Colt) 255 Grain Lead

These don't exceed 1000 fps and they're gas checked lead rounds which the instructions also say to use only lead and nothing that's coated so I'm thinking they shouldn't be a problem.

I'm just looking for a few opinions and if anyone has knowledge or experience with bp conversions and the type of ammo that can be used.

 

Hows it holding up so far?

 

The Italian clones are not heat treated and are plain low carbon mild steel which does not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, typically being about 80 Rb. Do not exceed about 14000 psi if you want the gun to last. Factory lead .45 Colt is OK, but not .45 ACP if you plan to shoot it alot. The Ruger Old Army with .45 ACP conversion cylinder is good to go with GI Ball, just stay away from +P LE loads.

 

Pietta and Uberti both still make brand new reproduction black powder revolvers and import them to the USA. My converting a Black Powder revolver to use cartridges doesn't effect you at all. You can go and buy a brand new Uberti or Pietta black powder revolver and have it shipped directly to your house in the USA.

Furthermore, most of these "conversions" are only a matter of swapping out a cylinder. The BP revolver isn't permanently modified.

You being a felon, you really need to check your local laws as most states see carrying a BP revolver the same as carrying a cartridge firearm.