Long story short, we need a way of keeping track of all the kids while riding atvs in the national forest, just in case of an emergency or a break down. There are miles and miles of trails. If something happened we wouldnt know where to start. Currently we have 2 atvs with motorola maxtracs on each atv tuned to the MURRS frequency and one mocked up as a base unit. The radios are suppose to be putting out 45 watts. I dont know what is wrong with them, but they arnt getting out past a mile in the very thick forest and mountians and valleys. We need something different. Im thinking about switching to CBs and hooking them up to an amp like a Palomar 80. What do you guys think about this? Or do you have any better ideas? Oh and cell phone coverage is non existent there.
Walker77
You could put GPS/with APRS on the ATV's and if you can get internet at the base, you can send / receive messages via APRS and also track in near real time where the ATV's are on a map.
You would need a fixed station at the home base, but it should work better than MURS, and will transmit the ATV GPS location even if the rider is too injured to make an APRS call.
Normally this requires a Ham license to transmit on APRS, however in an emergency (atv crash with injuries) anyone can transmit.
You would need a fixed station at the home base, but it should work better than MURS, and will transmit the ATV GPS location even if the rider is too injured to make an APRS call.
Normally this requires a Ham license to transmit on APRS, however in an emergency (atv crash with injuries) anyone can transmit.
MURS + anything more than 2 watts output = illegal, just fyi...
I don't think I'd recommend the Garmin Rino series for the simple fact that the data transmission is ONLY on the FRS side of the radio since data isn't legal on the GMRS band (and even if it were on GMRS @ 5 watts, we all know that that doesn't do nearly as much for range as most would expect.) Again, maxing out at 2 watts like MURS, and now you're up near the 70cm band which tends to suck a little bit more in the woods than the lower frequencies used in MURS.
Short of some beefy ham gear, your only reliable option might be satcom, and even then if you're under a dense canopy that can be very iffy. Some combination of SPOT satellite devices and/or proper PLB's might be the way to go if your budget can take the abuse.
It's worth noting that even professional S&R organizations have issues in environments like you describe. I was out with just such a group on a SAR operation near Phoenix last year and even with their Billy-Bad*** county-issued radios, the individual teams frequenctly had to resort to radio relay to get communications just a few miles up the mountain to the commander and back. They too were operating near the 2 meter band (much like MURS does) and even that wasn't enough to give reliable simplex communications over any serious distance.
I don't think I'd recommend the Garmin Rino series for the simple fact that the data transmission is ONLY on the FRS side of the radio since data isn't legal on the GMRS band (and even if it were on GMRS @ 5 watts, we all know that that doesn't do nearly as much for range as most would expect.) Again, maxing out at 2 watts like MURS, and now you're up near the 70cm band which tends to suck a little bit more in the woods than the lower frequencies used in MURS.
Short of some beefy ham gear, your only reliable option might be satcom, and even then if you're under a dense canopy that can be very iffy. Some combination of SPOT satellite devices and/or proper PLB's might be the way to go if your budget can take the abuse.
It's worth noting that even professional S&R organizations have issues in environments like you describe. I was out with just such a group on a SAR operation near Phoenix last year and even with their Billy-Bad*** county-issued radios, the individual teams frequenctly had to resort to radio relay to get communications just a few miles up the mountain to the commander and back. They too were operating near the 2 meter band (much like MURS does) and even that wasn't enough to give reliable simplex communications over any serious distance.
You are looking for a solution and you already stated your problem clearly.
"but they arnt getting out past a mile in the very thick forest and mountians and valleys."
I can transmit 15 miles on 1/2 a watt on the 2m band and get awesome comms. Or I can crank it to 5 watts and get nada at 1/4 mile.
The problem is not with what you have, the problem is where you are trying to use it. ALL FM is line of site, untill you get to the 40M band which NVIS works well fairly consistently. Your problem cant be solved with common unlicensed radios.
You have a few options.
1) Training- kids etc have to get up on a hill every hour or so and check in. Radios dont get out of valley to valley comms until you are in the HAM bands, and with specialized antennas.
2) A Tech HAM lcence for everyone, and a couple of mountaintop repeaters.
3)A Gen class license for everyone, HF radios and NVIS antennas, which arent terribly usefull as mobile antennas, they require stopping and setting up antennas. Research here on your part is important.
"but they arnt getting out past a mile in the very thick forest and mountians and valleys."
I can transmit 15 miles on 1/2 a watt on the 2m band and get awesome comms. Or I can crank it to 5 watts and get nada at 1/4 mile.
The problem is not with what you have, the problem is where you are trying to use it. ALL FM is line of site, untill you get to the 40M band which NVIS works well fairly consistently. Your problem cant be solved with common unlicensed radios.
You have a few options.
1) Training- kids etc have to get up on a hill every hour or so and check in. Radios dont get out of valley to valley comms until you are in the HAM bands, and with specialized antennas.
2) A Tech HAM lcence for everyone, and a couple of mountaintop repeaters.
3)A Gen class license for everyone, HF radios and NVIS antennas, which arent terribly usefull as mobile antennas, they require stopping and setting up antennas. Research here on your part is important.
I agree , the ham bands are best , but the license is required . In the long run you will love the ham communication capabilities no matter where you go or event you are involved with.
Some dual band hand helds even act as a repeater you could stratigicly place so every one could be in contact . also every ne needs to know how to read a map and report in exactly where they are from time to time . It is an important skill especially for those that enjoy the woods .
Some dual band hand helds even act as a repeater you could stratigicly place so every one could be in contact . also every ne needs to know how to read a map and report in exactly where they are from time to time . It is an important skill especially for those that enjoy the woods .
These might work for you...
SPOT-2 GPS Locater - messenger - emergency beacon
http://www.dougsoutdoors.com/SPOT-2O
.
SPOT-2 GPS Locater - messenger - emergency beacon
http://www.dougsoutdoors.com/SPOT-2O
.
Ok,
1st thing- You cant boost power enough to change the laws of propagation, period, end of rant
2nd- You dont have a big enough ATV to carry and power an AMP large enough to change rule 1
3rd- you REALLY need to learn about how radio works , because I can actually talk to Mars, with a half watt and the right antenna.
FM is LINE OF SIGHT-period. Thats how it works, and power doesnt change that until you get the right band width and the right conditions in the atmosphere. If there are obstructions in the way it drastically reduces the effectiveness of the comms you are talking about.
The options you have been given are viable, but it does require more than opening a box and saying you are good
1st thing- You cant boost power enough to change the laws of propagation, period, end of rant
2nd- You dont have a big enough ATV to carry and power an AMP large enough to change rule 1
3rd- you REALLY need to learn about how radio works , because I can actually talk to Mars, with a half watt and the right antenna.
FM is LINE OF SIGHT-period. Thats how it works, and power doesnt change that until you get the right band width and the right conditions in the atmosphere. If there are obstructions in the way it drastically reduces the effectiveness of the comms you are talking about.
The options you have been given are viable, but it does require more than opening a box and saying you are good
Your 45 watt radios are probably a larger power drain on the ATV electrical system than it can supply. While the explanation offered by PLA is valid and accurate there are some things you can do to improve your chances, after all, the Voyager spacecraft only has a 23 watt radio.
Have the power output of your radios verified in real-world conditions. Just because the 50 amp 13.8v power supply at the Motorola shop will let the radio deliver 45 watts into a dummy load does not mean the limited power supply of the ATV and the antenna you are using will produce the same power output. Put a meter on it and test it in the field.
If you are using 1/4 wl antennas (about 18 inches tall) replace them with higher gain antennas such as a 5/8 wl antenna (about 4 feet tall). I often communicate over distances of 10 or more miles while mobile in mountainous areas using 15 watts and a 5/8 wl antenna.
Make sure your antennas are mounted to a suitable ground plane. ATVs bodies are typically made from plastic and fiberglass and don't offer much in the way of a good ground plane. If you have metal racks on the ATV make sure those racks are grounded to the frame of the ATV and that the radio is also grounded to the frame of the ATV.
CB radio is not going to solve your problem. I know from experience. I wheel and when we are in the woods CB radio has such a short range over the mountainous terrain that it is only good for communications over a few hundred yards or so. Its great to talk to other members of the group over the short ranges between vehicles. A CB antenna will also need a larger ground plane than an ATV offers.
I frequent several OHV parks and trails in East TN, East KY and Southwest VA and the terrain we have here causes the same communications range issues that you are having. When I am out with a group on the trail we use CB radios for vehicle to vehicle communications. Except when on high ridges or wide open spaces most of the time communications are limited to less than 1/2 mile for an average mobile CB radio setup. I run a steel whip and a Cobra 29, all of it tuned properly and efficiently and even when communicating in the mountains and dense forest I still don't get any range, but while out on the open road I can get better than 10 miles without any problem.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way supporting or suggesting that you use any method that violates the law or puts people in danger. I am only suggesting you get everything checked out and be sure it is technically sound and operating properly. With MURS, 2 watts is the legal limit.
Have the power output of your radios verified in real-world conditions. Just because the 50 amp 13.8v power supply at the Motorola shop will let the radio deliver 45 watts into a dummy load does not mean the limited power supply of the ATV and the antenna you are using will produce the same power output. Put a meter on it and test it in the field.
If you are using 1/4 wl antennas (about 18 inches tall) replace them with higher gain antennas such as a 5/8 wl antenna (about 4 feet tall). I often communicate over distances of 10 or more miles while mobile in mountainous areas using 15 watts and a 5/8 wl antenna.
Make sure your antennas are mounted to a suitable ground plane. ATVs bodies are typically made from plastic and fiberglass and don't offer much in the way of a good ground plane. If you have metal racks on the ATV make sure those racks are grounded to the frame of the ATV and that the radio is also grounded to the frame of the ATV.
CB radio is not going to solve your problem. I know from experience. I wheel and when we are in the woods CB radio has such a short range over the mountainous terrain that it is only good for communications over a few hundred yards or so. Its great to talk to other members of the group over the short ranges between vehicles. A CB antenna will also need a larger ground plane than an ATV offers.
I frequent several OHV parks and trails in East TN, East KY and Southwest VA and the terrain we have here causes the same communications range issues that you are having. When I am out with a group on the trail we use CB radios for vehicle to vehicle communications. Except when on high ridges or wide open spaces most of the time communications are limited to less than 1/2 mile for an average mobile CB radio setup. I run a steel whip and a Cobra 29, all of it tuned properly and efficiently and even when communicating in the mountains and dense forest I still don't get any range, but while out on the open road I can get better than 10 miles without any problem.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way supporting or suggesting that you use any method that violates the law or puts people in danger. I am only suggesting you get everything checked out and be sure it is technically sound and operating properly. With MURS, 2 watts is the legal limit.
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