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View Poll Results: SHTF - Which do you grab?
AR15 / M16 type system 168 69.42%
AK-47 or similar system 41 16.94%
M14 type system 33 13.64%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-21-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
Okay, if you are going to make me play by the rules. I'll take one of these:
SEI built M21A5 = close enough. Pick one and I will take the rest...lol.

Or ......one of these since I own all 4... ( Pic number 3 and 5 are of same rifle. M25 ( Jon Wolfe build) with extended 0 ma rail. Pic 5 shows the standard rail.

Last pic is not playing by the rules. Just gun porn. GAP10 chambered in 6.5 cm. It will outshoot anything our government has ever dreamt up so far.

Dead last pick would be my current issued M4A1. If you add a 203 into the mix......it wouldn't be " dead last"......but ( if it had to be an M16 type) I would rather have a particular M16A4 I was issued long before the M4A1 came about.


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Old 07-21-2019, 08:04 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
Lol.

Ok, I'll explain what he meant in layman's terms.

What he is trying to say is, soldiers of any era have the habit of now and then, scoffing at any new information that came after their time in service etc. I think we are all guilty of this at some point, how can't we be, as creatures of habit and with the confidence on what we know and how we were trained.

That said, what he might not understand, is this:

The methodologies, principles, and strategies at a high level, are largely the same, and change very little even with technological advances.

The equipment we use etc are what changes. And we as people, if we are to be considered intelligent, must adapt and accept new data as it becomes available.

So he's half right. For example, in my old battalion, we use gear that wasn't around in nam, ww2, etc, but our core principles etc haven't changed since colonial days. We add to, but never take away. We still know and abide by Robert Roger's standing orders. Updated gear doesn't make those rules obsolete.


Anyway, it's pretty off topic at this point. Back to arguing between the m14 and the m16.



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To be fair, I did say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post
Sure some things stay the same, but many things do not.
and I stand by that, both based upon my time and any review of military history.

Many people have observed that success in new conflicts takes a while to come, often because troops go in there trying to fight it like the last war they fought (mostly because their training was derived from that experience). If you compare how we were fighting wars a few wars ago, then you will find that "some things stay the same, but many things do not".

It is about your frame of reference - if you are looking at the last few years, Tactics, gear and doctrine have not changed much. If you are looking at the last five decades, they have changed quite a bit.

Quote:
Anyway, it's pretty off topic at this point. Back to arguing between the m14 and the m16.
Yep - back to normal programming.....
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:33 PM
NAC/NSW/CAC NAC/NSW/CAC is offline
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Does Jon Tank still build M25's with the steel plate to ensure same zero after take down & reassembly? I know the government scrapped the concept.

Wonder who is building 1000 yard + M16/M4 nowadays?
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:42 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
That shall take me out over 96% of the time while I'm armed and experienced with my Tac-50 at over 2300 meters, with your & your "Buddies M4".

Now I'll readily admit that I ain't the marksman I once was, but shame on you if you think I can't do once what I once did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
Does Jon Tank still build M25's with the steel plate to ensure same zero after take down & reassembly? I know the government scrapped the concept.

Wonder who is building 1000 yard + M16/M4 nowadays?
Before it was 2300metres and now it is 1000yards.

Which is the Golden number that has to be achieved for a weapon to be any good?

In recent conflict, some bad guys are shot at long range - but most are shot across the width of a mud hut.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
Okay, if you are going to make me play by the rules. I'll take one of these:
I WANT ONE...
er... OK I want them all.....
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post
Before it was 2300metres and now it is 1000yards.

Which is the Golden number that has to be achieved for a weapon to be any good?

In recent conflict, some bad guys are shot at long range - but most are shot across the width of a mud hut.
hardcalibres, I'm supposed to follow the current ROE's. Either 7.62x 39 mm to 150 yards, 5.56 NATO flat shooting but suspect over 100 yards, or the 7.62 x 51 mm currently rated to 912 Meters/1000 yards by the USMC. Army says 800 meters but they issue a lot more Mexican Match Ammo.

As to the Golden number, all the toys & ammo built or tested at Crane are not within the current rules of engagement (ROE's) in this scenario.

About actual conflicts, don't hang around mud huts if you have the training, equipment, and practice to shoot bad guys at a longer distance. JMHO.

But if your trained, practiced, and equipped such that you need to hang around mud huts in order to engage bad guys. By all means feel free to radio me should the fire in the kitchen get to hot. There may be snow on my roof, but I'm still quite capable of delivering the mail from any distance that the 7.62 x 51 mm stays supersonic. But if you got handled, don't interrupt me while I nibble on the green can of water crackers Uncle Sam provided. LOL
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
Iíll wager that itís not soon enough.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
hardcalibres, I'm supposed to follow the current ROE's. Either 7.62x 39 mm to 150 yards, 5.56 NATO flat shooting but suspect over 100 yards, or the 7.62 x 51 mm currently rated to 912 Meters/1000 yards by the USMC. Army says 800 meters but they issue a lot more Mexican Match Ammo.

As to the Golden number, all the toys & ammo built or tested at Crane are not within the current rules of engagement (ROE's) in this scenario.

About actual conflicts, don't hang around mud huts if you have the training, equipment, and practice to shoot bad guys at a longer distance. JMHO.

But if your trained, practiced, and equipped such that you need to hang around mud huts in order to engage bad guys. By all means feel free to radio me should the fire in the kitchen get to hot. There may be snow on my roof, but I'm still quite capable of delivering the mail from any distance that the 7.62 x 51 mm stays supersonic. But if you got handled, don't interrupt me while I nibble on the green can of water crackers Uncle Sam provided. LOL
So it sounds like you are of the opinionthat if I had a 30 minute warning to grab one rifle before the bomb dropped I should grab my 50 BMG rather than my AR?
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
So it sounds like you are of the opinionthat if I had a 30 minute warning to grab one rifle before the bomb dropped I should grab my 50 BMG rather than my AR?
I have no opinion about what firearm you should carry Sir.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
So it sounds like you are of the opinionthat if I had a 30 minute warning to grab one rifle before the bomb dropped I should grab my 50 BMG rather than my AR?
IF .. YOU are saying...
You can grab an assembled .50BMG as in a Ma Duece, tripod, ammo,all on your own and run for it all on your own...
Then
I salute you sir because you area a far better man than I am.

That sucker is HEEEAAAVVVVYYYYYYY.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
IF .. YOU are saying...
You can grab an assembled .50BMG as in a Ma Duece, tripod, ammo,all on your own and run for it all on your own...
Then
I salute you sir because you area a far better man than I am.

That sucker is HEEEAAAVVVVYYYYYYY.
No M2. I was thinking of my State Arms Shorty 50 BMG rifle because NAC/CAC thinks SHTF engagements will be 1200-2200 meters. I can shoulder it but I sure can't run far with it.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:40 PM
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No M2. I was thinking of my State Arms Shorty 50 BMG rifle because NAC/CAC thinks SHTF engagements will be 1200-2200 meters. I can shoulder it but I sure can't run far with it.
From the sandbar/small island it's a minimum of mile to land in all directions. Once you hit the marsh it's over 1200 yards to any treeline. So having a cached Bolt Action 50 BMG and a Big 50 full of ammo on the island, and the Bolt in my bug out bag makes perfect sense to me. There are 3 marshes leading to the open ocean so 3 similar caches with 300 Win Mag bolt actions, adds 3 more bolts to the bug out bag. So making it down the pier to the boat with a M14 and a messenger style bug out bag with four rifle bolts keeps me within the ROE's. Should the need arise that I had to disable and drop the M14 then getfeetwet, I can still swim to the island (preferably in the dark with a hidden or no moon.).

Your situation may be completely different. But thier ain't a lot of folks nimble enough to sprint across the marsh, nor fast enough to run across open water. So the AR & AK just don't give me a warm & fuzzy in my AO.

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Old 07-22-2019, 05:56 PM
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THE THING to remember is in this scenario, if facing superior forces, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong about running and hiding to fight another day. Keeping the OPFOR at distance helps a LOT. The farther away you can keep them the more time you have to find your hiding ground. That is why 7.62X51

Along with all my response gear from back when I was in UC work and we used to to do creeps and watches over marij grows is a full ghillie suit I made a long time ago. Weave in the local flora and you become one with the forest or grasslands, the enemy passes you by and then at an opportune time you can exit or shoot them in the back.

Either one works.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
THE THING to remember is in this scenario, if facing superior forces, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong about running and hiding to fight another day. Keeping the OPFOR at distance helps a LOT. The farther away you can keep them the more time you have to find your hiding ground. That is why 7.62X51

Along with all my response gear from back when I was in UC work and we used to to do creeps and watches over marij grows is a full ghillie suit I made a long time ago. Weave in the local flora and you become one with the forest or grasslands, the enemy passes you by and then at an opportune time you can exit or shoot them in the back.

Either one works.
Bear with me a moment:

Nam era folks wore A.L.I.C.E. gear which was designed to be shed in layers until even your duty belt was left behind as you fast footed out of the area with a 1911 in your hand and a couple of .45 ACP Mags in your pockets.It could even get so bad you might just have an MK2 Knife and have left the empty 1911 behind.

Today's Warriors hold a different paradigm: Every piece of equipment in your 66 lb + load has a purpose, and it needs to be humped everywhere you go because you are going to need it eventually.

Example: Nam Era flak jackets were for high value targets or found on aircraft. Today hardly any infantryman heads into harm's way without armour.

Today's Warriors are more prone to Mag Dumps slugging it out at rock throwing distance, than dropping everything other than the basic ALICE combat webbing and high tailing to a distance that maximizes the heavier harder hitting longer range M14.

JMHO.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:01 PM
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I would grab my AR-15 variant, SU-16CA. I took it out of its normal home in a locked ammo box in the back of my BOV the other day at the range. No lube, no nothing after over three years, slapped in a magazine and chased a plastic water bottle out to probably 15-20 yards off hand open sights.

Less than 5 pounds, folds to just over 24" and uses any AR magazine. I can load it up to kill probably any deer or down to sub sonic .22LR speeds for small game.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:40 PM
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I would grab my AR-15 variant, SU-16CA. I took it out of its normal home in a locked ammo box in the back of my BOV the other day at the range. No lube, no nothing after over three years, slapped in a magazine and chased a plastic water bottle out to probably 15-20 yards off hand open sights.

Less than 5 pounds, folds to just over 24" and uses any AR magazine. I can load it up to kill probably any deer or down to sub sonic .22LR speeds for small game.
Realy, have you considered being a buck naked refugie? They do have a tendency to survive. In this case how does Canada or Mexico fit into your future?
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
THE THING to remember is in this scenario, if facing superior forces, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong about running and hiding to fight another day. Keeping the OPFOR at distance helps a LOT. The farther away you can keep them the more time you have to find your hiding ground. That is why 7.62X51

Along with all my response gear from back when I was in UC work and we used to to do creeps and watches over marij grows is a full ghillie suit I made a long time ago. Weave in the local flora and you become one with the forest or grasslands, the enemy passes you by and then at an opportune time you can exit or shoot them in the back.

Either one works.
Sun Tzu made the same observations.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:57 PM
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Realy, have you considered being a buck naked refugie? They do have a tendency to survive. In this case how does Canada or Mexico fit into your future?
Thanks, but no thanks. I figure I will make it locally or I won't, doesn't make a lot of difference.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:04 PM
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Thanks, but no thanks. I figure I will make it locally or I won't, doesn't make a lot of difference.
It never hurts to have an alternate plan.

So we are back to choosing between 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x51, and 5.56.
(Expended rounds don't count)
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
It never hurts to have an alternate plan.

So we are back to choosing between 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x51, and 5.56.
(Expended rounds don't count)
I choose 5.56, just in an alternate vehicle of delivery. And yes, I do have a couple of AR's, I just prefer the SU16-CA.
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