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View Poll Results: SHTF - Which do you grab?
AR15 / M16 type system 136 67.33%
AK-47 or similar system 35 17.33%
M14 type system 31 15.35%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-19-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Interesting how people imagine, in their mind's eye, all the action occurring in daylight.

I see it time and again in these kinds of musings. Perfect vistas, excellent friendly positions, perfect weather, good situational awareness of an opponent who conveniently exposes himself... and always in daytime. Just like back on that flat range everyone practices on.

What are you gonna do the other half of the 24 hour day? Sleep? Cede the night to the other fellows? Call a Time Out? Unless you're a world class shot with very expensive gear & training... there's damn few 1000+ yard targets presenting themselves in the dark. Or in abysmal visibility weather (rain, fog, snow, dust storms, wild fire or burning structural smoke, etc). The kind that well trained and motivated troops love, love, love to use for getting in close.

Outside of vast open spaces (coastlines, featureless plains, high desert, rooftops/long straight urban streets, or bare mountain sides) where you become unfortunately compromised (sky-lighted or contrasted), there are few places for such long ranged engagement attempts. I can think of few reasons to engage anyone (in a non-military scenario) at 1200 meters... thus compromising your presence. Deliberate far ambush by fires, harassing fire, or dedicated sniper offensive role perhaps. Especially if the enemy is dumb enough to walk out into open country where only micro-cover exists.

Why not just walk away & find some unassailable cover/concealment? Or a better ambush or defensive position? Or present a Feint or Demonstration (look 'em up) in order to lure the enemy away from his chosen path? Absent PID of some specifically known & anticipated threat, who are you going to open up on randomly at 3/4 of a mile? And why? Hell, without good spotter optics and training... damn few can even pick out a potential target at that distance.

No matter what you feel, believe, or imagine... the enemy is, by definition, uncooperative. Sometimes unpredictable. Sometimes he's better than (if not equal to) your best laid plans. Because he has plans too. And he always gets a vote.

Hunter becomes hunted. Your first inkling of that may be when he opens up on you, from hidden location/s at well inside of 300 meters. After flanking you unobserved with a hidden element. Or after springing a well laid ambush or initiating an assault line. The place where 90% of small arms engagements historically occur. Especially in vegetated, uneven, or built up terrain.

As far as shooting at armed groups from great distances... I'm hitting anyone that looks in charge (or demonstrably takes charge after the first shots), anyone that looks like they're able to communicate over an electronic device, K9 handlers, and anyone that mans a crew served or other distance over-match weapon. And most especially anyone who reacts like a trained sniper (or worse... a sniper/spotter team) and starts to glass for me. Extra credit for Point Men or Scouts.

I dunno, maybe 'cause I'm just a dumb retired grunt, but as an individual civilian during some nebulous SHTF, I value Mobility (lighter handier load), Sustained Fire (more ammo), Night Engagement Capability (what the present day AR is optimized for), and the CQB Ergonomic Edge (superior gun fighting controls, recoil management, & handling) in close engagements (which means most of 'em). Those things are far more important than the ability to penetrate an extra layer of brick or auto glass with a heavier bullet. Or plink around the edges of machine gun & RPG engagement ranges.

In that respect, it's kinda like the equation that sees modern 9mm fighting pistols (like a G19, Smith M&P, or CZ SP-01) having an edge over nominally ballistically superior guns in bigger calibers. They're all so close in actual practical terminal effect, that the easier recoil management, training ammo affordability, form factor (size/weight), and superior magazine capacity outweigh the purely incremental ballistic advantages of larger caliber pistols (even if those are perfectly effective as well).

For me, the AR pattern wins for similar reasons. I can travel farther, faster, with more ammo, with my ass less winded, and with better fighting ergonomics than with the other two choices. Not to mention that (in standard military format), the AR is the most accurate of the bunch. Even before you add in a free float rail.

I'm also biased because I've invested so much more trigger time on that gun... and it always worked for me... wherever I found myself. I'm not worried about some random Jamoke outgunning me at distance with a bone stock M1A pattern rifle. He won't...unless he's a very rare kind of cat... a superlative marksman. He won't with an AK pattern carbine either.

For the record, all three guns (AR, AK, & M14) are excellent combat weapons. But, for me, the aggregate nuanced advantages push the AR into first place choice for a fighting gun. Assuming a quality standard version is chosen. So don't compare accurized AK or M14 versions to merely standard model ARs. Because the AR design lends itself to going there too. Whether a 5.56 SPR or a 7.62 Larue OBR.

BTW, I actually did have to wade through airport Hare Krishnas (while decked out in class As) back in the day. Not an uncommon experience for PCS or TDY travelling troops. Which is why that movie scene is so fracking hilarious. Fired my first military M14 in 1975 (University ROTC). Still own an early production (USGI parts) Springfield. So 45 years with the platform for me. Including about 23 years on issued M21/M25 rifles. I'm actually very fond of the design.

Especially if you ever have to bayonet or butt stroke someone. Seen both. A friend bayoneted...pinned to the ground through a love handle. Much blood but not fatal. And myself clubbed by an issue M14. Hard. Knocked the frack out. Still have the suture scar from that metal folding buttplate on my hairline.

RLTW/DOL
HMMMM....

JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,

Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s

WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????

GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30

Just musing here.....

YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.

IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.
It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys
Men use wood and steel tools.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
HMMMM....

JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,

Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s

WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????

GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30

Just musing here.....

YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.

IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.
It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys
Men use wood and steel tools.

Are you by chance a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms? I always love it when the boomers chime in.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Are you by chance a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms? I always love it when the boomers chime in.
NOT ONLY that, I have also been called a LUDDITE and a Misanthrope.
Not that they are justly awarded.
I am using a computer and that is not Ludditish(?) and I do like my wife and 2 or 3 other people in my life... so there's that.

I just know what works for me in the world I have lived in and experienced and if going into battle whether at 10 feet or 1000 yds my choice is the M1A and the 1911. Not because they are old tech and I refuse to change, it is just because they are the best choice for any rational being who wants all opportunities afforded my weapons choice.
Remember
Kids play with plastic toys
men use tools of steel and wood.
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
HMMMM....



JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,



Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s



WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????



GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30



Just musing here.....



YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.



IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.

It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys

Men use wood and steel tools.
.22 better than an M14 at close quarters?

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Old 07-19-2019, 04:28 PM
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I see that Nightvisionary is back.

Anyone wanting to take a wager when it gets banned again?
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
They do. Anytime you want some ground taken, the current US Navy has no problem running a Burke aground.

Acronyms and combat slang arise out of every era. HAF? GAF? Jackpot? FNULNU? PIFWC? DUSTWUN? Dry Hole? JAM? PDM? PONR? Plus or Minus 10 Seconds? Emerald City? SOTF? SOCCE? MiTT? AFPAK? Massood? JCO? CONOP GTAs? Wasta? FOB? CROWS? JDAM? OGA? Task Unit? MeZ? SF-10A? SATCOM Toyota? SARDOT? IZ? RG33? Penguins (boom)? Mott Lake? SFAUC? SFAERTEC? CIF? JCO? LCE? TF DAGGER? CAOC? HBIED? LLSO? ISOF? ERU? Bagram? Balad? K2? Any of those ring a bell? Probably not. After your time or out of your lane... just as many things in that arena are now for me.

Wind your neck in Shipmate. I'm not some outsider or non-combatant you can impress that easily. I got along with my Navy NSW counterparts all over the world, from Tadpoles to Bullfrogs. For decades. I'll get along with you... so quit trying to be a Richard.

But don't try that passive-aggressive BS with me. If you got something factually gun related... or an experienced opinion... to spit out, just say it. I'm all ears for good poop and willing to learn from anyone that knows what they are talking about. The opposite is not true.

RLTW/DOL
While I'm well versed in all 5 Nautical dialects: brown shoe, brown water, blue water, submariner, & Salty (cursing) Language. There are a limited number of folks that even have an idea of operations near 50 years ago, more or less any recollection of clandestine operations. Most folks are going to spend hours on google just tracking down the locations & acronyms we tossed out in a few paragraphs. By the time folks looked up the exploits of UDT 11, 12, & 13 from the Ho Chi Minh Trail through the RSSZ, Whirlwind, and then all the post exit silent skulduggery. They were probably exhausted.
We probably sounded like 2 "OLD SWASHBUCKLERS" prattling over foam filled mugs. I'm sure we could swap hair raising sea stories (exploits) for hours on end, but me mouths a bit dry so perhaps the young bucks should be allowed to participate. As to what I stated, it was all fact. Hopefully you didn't need to google any of the references, but I did use 3 of the 5 Navy Dialects so I figured I'd be confusing more folks than those that would venture to research the Old Places & Operations of an Old Sea Dog.

Deeds done in the past are now irrelevant to all those that were not there or did not live through them and folks Nowadays call them History.

Let's try this acronym: 22 a day!

77, what was your seating assignment on Operation Eagle Claw?

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Old 07-19-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Sockpuppet View Post
I see that Nightvisionary is back.

Anyone wanting to take a wager when it gets banned again?
Iíll wager that itís not soon enough.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
.22 better than an M14 at close quarters?

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HMMM... I see a sarcasm emoji or something is needed.

I thought the long extended
YYYEEAAAHHHHHH.... would give it away.

NOt in 1000 lifetimes would that .22 beat out a 7.62x51 in close jungle work.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:23 PM
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HMMM... I see a sarcasm emoji or something is needed.

I thought the long extended
YYYEEAAAHHHHHH.... would give it away.

NOt in 1000 lifetimes would that .22 beat out a 7.62x51 in close jungle work.
There is a lot of statistical probably anomalies in 1000 lifetimes.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
There is a lot of statistical probably anomalies in a 1000 lifetimes.
I'll let you know.
Longevity is LLLLOOOONNNGGG in my family.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:37 PM
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I'll let you know.
Longevity is LLLLOOOONNNGGG in my family.
So did you spend any time on google?
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:39 PM
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Only one gun
17 HMR Marlin . + about 2k rounds. .
By volume I could only cary 1/5th of .223 .significantly less of any other round but .22
IF I were joining an infantry unit I then might match what I cary with what they cary .
If there is some one to come home to, they will need the more significant armament.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:44 PM
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Only one gun
17 HMR Marlin . + about 2k rounds. .
By volume I could only cary 1/5th of .223 .significantly less of any other round but .22
IF I were joining an infantry unit I then might match what I cary with what they cary .
If there is some one to come home to, they will need the more significant armament.
Perfect case study. arleigh, can you tell me where the RSSZ is?
Nope, not the band!
Thank You for your input.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:27 PM
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So did you spend any time on google?
????

It does not compute.
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Old 07-20-2019, 03:25 AM
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Perfect case study. arleigh, can you tell me where the RSSZ is?
Nope, not the band!
Thank You for your input.
Charlie donít surf.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:36 PM
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????

It does not compute.
RSSZ is an acronym for Rung Sat Special Zone. It became a free fire zone once the "Men with Green Faces" began operations.

But 002S is probably correct, more folks will remember that Charlie don't surf.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:49 PM
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Wasn't born yet, nam was before my time.

Only know about what I see in documentaries, or first hand accounts.

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Old 07-20-2019, 09:59 PM
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Wasn't born yet, nam was before my time.

Only know about what I see in documentaries, or first hand accounts.

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Was it merely History? Or did you even attempt one google search to figure out what US Old Swashbucklers were debating?

So I was wondering what happened to Astronomy? I mean Tony Orlando got a top ten hit with "Tie Yellow Ribbon round the Old Oak Tree" in response the Iranian Hostage Crisis. But I was wondering if anyone invested a single google search inquiring about Mr Carters (Jimmy the Peanut to US less than homage folks) failed rescue attempt? This isn't even a CTG. xxxxx number task group operation. I gave Y'all Operation Eagle Claw, so History is History and deeds done dirt cheap are of no relative value. Even when I got specific, the interest to dig them up is lower than History 101 in High School. Got it!
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:28 PM
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Was it merely History? Or did you even attempt one google search to figure out what US Old Swashbucklers were debating?

So I was wondering what happened to Astronomy? I mean Tony Orlando got a top ten hit with "Tie Yellow Ribbon round the Old Oak Tree" in response the Iranian Hostage Crisis. But I was wondering if anyone invested a single google search inquiring about Mr Carters (Jimmy the Peanut to US less than homage folks) failed rescue attempt? This isn't even a CTG. xxxxx number task group operation. I gave Y'all Operation Eagle Claw, so History is History and deeds done dirt cheap are of no relative value. Even if mentioned, the interest to dig them up is lower than History 101 in High School. Got it!
I learn what I can, about all conflicts. A student of war to the grave.

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Old 07-20-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
Was it merely History? Or did you even attempt one google search to figure out what US Old Swashbucklers were debating?
I don't know about the Old Swashbucklers either.

But I do recognize the Old Soldier routine when I hear it.

Times change and as they do, so does the character of conflict. In response to that, tactics change and weapons evolve.

Sure some things stay the same, but many things do not.

The M4 is a classic example of that. When the M16 first came out, it had plenty of problems - but in the current version as an M4 (or a Mk 12 or Mk 18) it is actually a very good weapon which is held in high regard by about 99% of those who carry them. Between those three versions it can also do well in about 99% of combat tasks that exist for service rifles today.

All my friends from my time in the military (some older and some younger) have my permission to shoot me if they ever identify the Old Soldier routine coming out of my mouth.
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