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Old 07-17-2019, 09:48 PM
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All good questions. But honestly, we went to 1) eat, 2) got a little tour and peek inside, and 3) eat.

We did not attend a service. I'm going to guess that English is the lingua Franca, as there is virtually no Greek community here that I know of.
Interesting. What kind of food did they serve? Middle Eastern? Russian?
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:50 PM
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Interesting. What kind of food did they serve? Middle Eastern? Russian?
IIRC, predominately Greek, although there were many booths. My knowledge of Russian cuisine is virtually nil.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:18 AM
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Booths? Was there beer? Music? Sounds like you may have wandered into their annual Greek Festival. Many Orthodox parishes host them as part of their community outreach programs.

Have you checked the video links on their website? The pastor is a SoCal native who converted to Orthodoxy.

https://saintkosmasconferences.com/a...josiah-trenham

He addresses some of the issues that we often discuss here in the Religious Forum.

https://orthodoxyindialogue.com/2019...osiah-trenham/

You are fortunate to have such a Christian resource right in your neighborhood.

Kyrie Eleison
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
Booths? Was there beer? Music? Sounds like you may have wandered into their annual Greek Festival. Many Orthodox parishes host them as part of their community outreach programs.

Have you checked the video links on their website? The pastor is a SoCal native who converted to Orthodoxy.

https://saintkosmasconferences.com/a...josiah-trenham

He addresses some of the issues that we often discuss here in the Religious Forum.

https://orthodoxyindialogue.com/2019...osiah-trenham/

You are fortunate to have such a Christian resource right in your neighborhood.

Kyrie Eleison
I indicated earlier that it was the celebration (festival) that occurs on or around the Feast Day of the patron saint of the church. I've been to a number of them at different churches over the years. I don't remember if they had beer...there was a booth selling bottles of wines. I do remember a band playing too loudly and a fair amount of frenzied dancing later on. (So there was probably alcohol...) Earlier, there were the obligatory demos of Greek dances in authentic outfits, I remember.
I've not looked in to the bio of the pastor. I'm sure he is a pious and decent person, and as you say, follows much of the same discussions and reasoning as we see here. But I'm quite secure in my Faith, even much more so because of the discussions here. They've forced me to do much more research into the nuts and bolts of the Church, specifically into the earliest History and Traditions.

I so wish that the hubris of men could be subsumed and the humility of the Apostles and the early Fathers again could be the driving force of Christianity. That is what Jesus taught. That is how He told us to always act. All of this petty bickering which keeps us at odds is right out of Satan's playbook.

Nothing would make me happier than for our divisions to be healed. Truly. And all the discussions here about them has further convinced me that hubris is at the heart of just about all of them. A thousand years of "It's all your fault!" from both sides is a large hurdle to overcome. There have been numerous attempts for sure, but I see damn little humility on either side. Serious question...In your heart, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is offended over the wording of the Filioque? Do you think that God is shaking His head over such semantics? Are either of the Faiths somehow lessened because of it?
Another example that was brought up earlier...Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception. I understand that the Orthodox believe she became purified upon Jesus' conception. (Is that correct?) We have our reasoning for the belief, and you have yours. Personally, I have a hard time thinking that either concept matters much in the whole scheme of things. We honor Mary a whole lot more than you do, and believe she has a much greater role in Jesus' plan for us, but to call that belief a Heresy and an impediment to joining your church?

I've read that your Liturgy is really good, and I think I will attend a service to see for myself. I would dearly love to see us reunite. So many of the divisions are miniscule, but for me, I simply cannot let go of the mandate of Jesus to Peter and how He designated him as the Rock. We all believed and accepted for hundreds of years the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, yet the hubris of men on both sides broke that bond for you.
Could you see yourself accepting that Primacy again?
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:27 AM
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John 1:1 and John 16:28.

However, a private interpreter of scripture can not understand the implications of these scriptures. They gloss over it never entering the depths.

Why do you not follow the scripture which tells you follow the Apostolic Oral Tradition?
If Y'shua (Jesus) was walking the earth today, He would STILL be using the "scriptures" (as referred to in the NT) He used back then...which would be the TaNaK.

Torah
a
Nevi'im ('Prophets')
a
Ketuvim ('Writings')

As was HIS custom...
Luke 4:16 Now when he went to Natzeret, where he had been brought up, on Shabbat he went to the synagogue as usual. He stood up to read, 17 and he was given the scroll of the prophet Yesha‘yahu (Isaiah). Unrolling the scroll, he found the place where it was written,

Including Paul's...

Acts 17:2 According to his usual practice, Sha’ul (Paul) went in; and on three Shabbats he gave them drashes (instructions) from the Tanakh,
Any time you see "as it is written" in the NT, where do you think it was written? TaNaK...
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:31 AM
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Right on cue.....

I incorporate all my prior posts by reference herein








God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Ghost
Thank You God
Thank You Jesus
Thank You Holy Ghost
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:46 AM
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2 Thess 2:15 " Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. "
According to the AENT:

15. Therefore, my Brothers, be established and persevere in the Commandments9 which you have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle.
Footnote:
9
The biggest misunderstanding of the Pauline Epistles is that Paul’s exhortations nullified or superseded Torah rather than complemented Torah, and most of this is due to erroneous Greek translations, such as in this verse which reads: “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the paradoesis (traditions) which you were taught, whether by word or epistle.” Paradoesis could mean “traditions” but may also be rendered “teachings” as in the NIV. However, there are BIG problems with both phrases as they imply a new “wisdom” has supplanted the Eternal Word. Many theologians suggest that Paul the Jew is saying to the Gentiles, “Don’t concern yourself with Torah, it’s just a Jewish thing; just listen to me (Paul) and follow the new teaching.” However, Aramaic reads: “Henceforth, my brethren, stand fast and hold to the Commandments which you have been taught, either by word or by epistle” (Lamsa). The Aramaic porqadona, unlike the Greek paradoesis, can only mean “Commandments”. The question is then, what commandments?

According to Matthew 5:19, Y’shua taught Torah and the Commandments of YHWH from the very beginning of his ministry. According to Matthew 15:3, Y’shua warned the Pharisees against making void the “Commandment of Elohim” by their traditions. In Matthew 19:17 Y’shua spelled out the Commandments to the rich young ruler, teaching that “if you will enter into Life, keep the Commandments.” The rich young ruler asked which ones? Y’shua gave him Torah Commandments! Being led by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) to observe YHWH’s Torah (instruction in righteousness) is a prerequisite to entering the Malchut Elohim (Kingdom of God); in fact, Torah is magnified (made great) by Y’shua according to Yesha‘yahu/Isaiah 42:21. In 2 Peter 2:21, 22, Peter levies a sharp rebuke; “…it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after having known (it), to turn back from the Set Apart (kadosh, or Holy)) commandment that was delivered to them.” John teaches in 1 John 2:4; “For he that says I know him and does not keep his Commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

There can be NO doubt these are YHWH’s Commandments because John teaches in 1 John 3:22: “And whatever we ask, we receive from Him because we keep His (YHWH’s) Commandments and do acceptable things before Him.” But some theologians teach that if you “love” you don’t need to keep any Commandments; however, this is the tradition of the Laodicean Church who interprets “love” according to religious tradition. “And the dragon was enraged against the woman; and he went to make war upon the residue of her seed who keep the Commandments of Elohim and have the testimony of Y’shua” (Revelation 12:17). The true remnant, the Israel of Elohim, keep the Commandments of Elohim and know Y’shua to be both Mashiyach ben Yoseph (the suffering Servant) and Mashiyach ben David.

The evidence supporting Torah Observance among Y’shua’s followers is overwhelming, but there are multitudes of doctrines and church traditions that make war against the Word of YHWH. It’s one thing for a person to choose to disobey YHWH’s Commandments, but it’s quite another to teach others to also be disobedient. Y’shua warns that it would be better for a
millstone be hung around your neck and be sunk into the sea than to be guilty of causing one of his little ones to stumble (Matthew 18:6). Paul and all of Y’shua’s disciples, even the Pharisees knew that the “Word of Elohim” can only mean Torah! Therefore, this verse clearly demonstrates that Paul is determined to bring everyone including the Gentiles, the Tribes of Israel, and all Jews into the Grace of Y’shua so they could have Torah written upon their hearts. Grace is power given by YHWH to live as a Kedoshim (holy people).
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:51 AM
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I've been off the boards a couple of weeks and playing catch up. And instead of reading further, I have double answered some posts above Sorry.
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:25 PM
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I don't think it is unfounded.
You think all of Christendom prior to the 1500's were ignorant of the truth christian faith?
Actually, IMO...prior to 1500 the "church" had weaponized religion and God's Word to subdue the people, MOST of whom were ignorant due to not being able to read or write. Reminds me of this...

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Old 07-18-2019, 12:27 PM
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You only want to talk with heretics like you. Figures. Apostolic Tradition burns like Holy water your sensibilities.
It appears that it chapped the Lord's backside as well, reference Mark 7:6-13
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:28 PM
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Why miracles give credence to the infallible authority for you? When the Antichrist will come and perform great miracles you will be one of his dupes.
Are you admitting Peter is one of the elect/chosen?

Matthew 24:24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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Wow
Robotic drone automaton
What happens when you give a chimp a keyboard?????
Now I know
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Wow
Robotic drone automaton
What happens when you give a chimp a keyboard?????
Now I know
Very christian of you.
Ad hominem much!
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:54 PM
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Stop banging on other peoples' denominations and sincerely held beliefs
I was convicted and I knocked it off
As long as the denomination is Bible based, then it is all good by me
I have no time to waste with Judaizers and therefore I keep it short
We have debated the merits of the Judaizers and I see zero merit to slavery
We are free, adopted sons, and the Bride of Jesus Christ.
You yoke-up with the law all you want
I will stay free, as I was set free by Jesus Christ
That is as free from the Law as it gets
The Jews rejected Jesus, and the gentiles got to step into the breach
Jesus even sent us Paul
Even Peter himself only imposed three rules on Gentile converts after Paul set him straight
That is fact, fact beyond dispute
Thank you Jesus for sending Paul to us
There, that is the point, one more time
Please I beg you, don't type out some long critical nonsense post
Save us both the trouble
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:26 PM
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Stop banging on other peoples' denominations and sincerely held beliefs
HELLO POT, I'M KETTLE!

Quote:
I was convicted and I knocked it off
But you sure haven't knocked off ad hominem

Quote:
As long as the denomination is Bible based, then it is all good by me
Then what's your problem?

Quote:
I have no time to waste with Judaizers and therefore I keep it short
You just made my point POT!

Jesus was the biggest Judaizer of them all...

Quote:
We have debated the merits of the Judaizers and I see zero merit to slavery
Then back off, my posts weren't to you.

Quote:
We are free, adopted sons, and the Bride of Jesus Christ.
And....

Quote:
You yoke-up with the law all you want
If you love God you will obey HIS commands (1 John 5).

Quote:
I will stay free, as I was set free by Jesus Christ
Not free to sin, and if you say you have no sin, then you are a liar (1 John 1:8).
Then how do you know what sin is...sin is violating the Torah (1 John 3:4).

Quote:
That is as free from the Law as it gets
Says you...YOU HAD BETTER RE-READ ROMANS 3:31 AGAIN!
31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
Your version will say:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Quote:
The Jews rejected Jesus, and the gentiles got to step into the breach
Jesus even sent us Paul
You really need to go back and read the bible FOR YOURSELF! Read what PAUL wrote above in Romans 3 and below ch 11.

Romans 11:11 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?” Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world — that is, if Isra’el’s being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter — how much greater riches will Isra’el in its fullness bring them!

19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!

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Even Peter himself only imposed three rules on Gentile converts after Paul set him straight
If you say so
Jesus seems to disagree...I can provide scripture if you like.

Quote:
That is fact, fact beyond dispute
I just did

Quote:
Thank you Jesus for sending Paul to us
I'd rather day thank you God for sending Y'shua (Jesus).
But you can worship Paul if you desire, apparently that is what you think Jesus gave you freedom to do.

Quote:
There, that is the point, one more time
I'm proud of you.

Quote:
Please I beg you, don't type out some long critical nonsense post
Save us both the trouble
Sighhhhh, you obviously require simple, so hopefully this was simple enough for you.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
You yoke-up with the law all you want
I will stay free, as I was set free by Jesus Christ
How do you recincile that with Matthew 7:21?

21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven. Simply calling Me “Lord” will not be enough. Only those who do the will of My Father who is in heaven will join Me in heaven.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:33 PM
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I indicated earlier that it was the celebration…
(…and so forth…)
Very well.

Quote:
I've not looked in to the bio of the pastor. I'm sure he is a pious and decent person…
(…and so forth…)

How do you know? Did you have the opportunity to meet and speak with him personally? Did you introduce yourself as a neighbor? Did you disclose that you are a member of a local RC parish? Did he know your current pastor?

Quote:
I so wish that the hubris of men could be subsumed and the humility of the Apostles and the early Fathers again could be the driving force of Christianity. That is what Jesus taught. That is how He told us to always act…
(…and so forth...)
I totally agree. Christ’s entire earthly ministry was an exercise in humility. It was Our Lord that taught His Apostles about humility and its precursor to all repentance. There are numerous examples that the Apostles took these teachings to heart and applied them to their own earthly ministries.


Quote:
Nothing would make me happier than for our divisions to be healed. Truly. And all the discussions here about them has further convinced me that hubris is at the heart of just about all of them…
(…and so forth…)

Again, I completely agree. I think that at one level, the RCC agrees as well. The church welcomes Protestants to repent of their errors and return to the Catholic Church. The Papacy should be commended for that.

Quote:
A thousand years of "It's all your fault!" from both sides is a large hurdle to overcome. ..
(…and so forth…)

Now I have to disagree here. From the Great Schism to the Reformation five hundred years. No one living today bears responsibility for the Reformation and what followed.

Quote:
Serious question...In your heart, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is offended over the wording of the Filioque? Do you think that God is shaking His head over such semantics? Are either of the Faiths somehow lessened because of it?
I do not think God (ie the Trinity, Holy Spirit, inclusive) is offended (in a human sense) by anything. In the third century the bishops of the entire Church met at the First Ecumenical Council, discussed what was being taught in all places by successors to the Apostles. The Church of Rome participated in the Council along with the other Christian Churches of Apostolic foundation. Collectively, they established the Creed. The Creed serves the Christian Church by defining a perimeter around authentic Christian doctrine. What is inside is Christianity. What is outside the wire something else, call it whatever you want, just not Christianity. As a Roman Catholic, you KNOW this.

Quote:
Another example that was brought up earlier...Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception. I understand that the Orthodox believe she became purified upon Jesus' conception. (Is that correct?) We have our reasoning for the belief, and you have yours.
NO. Orthodoxy teaches that the Virgin Mary became the Theotokos (Mother of God) when she responded to the Annunciation of the Angel Gabriel in the Gospel of Saint Luke:
In faith and obedience to the will of God, Mary replied to the angel, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be according to your word.” Upon her response, the angel departed.
It was her obedience to the will of God and her cooperation with the grace of God, during her earthly lifetime, in which God deemed her worthy of being the human mother of His Only Begotten Son. It had nothing to do with her own conception or birth.

Quote:
Personally, I have a hard time thinking that either concept matters much in the whole scheme of things. We honor Mary a whole lot more than you do, and believe she has a much greater role in Jesus' plan for us, but to call that belief a Heresy and an impediment to joining your church?
From the day of my birth, I attended the RC Mass every Sunday until I was enrolled in Catholic School and began attending Mass during the week as well. I was RC for a total of 57 years. Until I entered an Orthodox Church about 10 years ago, I too thought that we (Roman Catholics) had a monopoly on honoring the Virgin Mary. I was simply wrong. Orthodox Christians venerate the Mother of God throughout the Divine Liturgy. At the mere mention of her name, the sign of the cross is made by all present, even one year olds. In every Orthodox Church I have ever entered, her icons are never out of view. They are reverenced almost constantly. Attend any Orthodox liturgy, anywhere in the world, and you will see for yourself.

The RCC does not honor the Virgin Mary more that Orthodoxy. The specific, relatively new, false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a heresy against the Christian Faith. When you find out WHY, it will be easy for you to identify the series of doctrinal novelties that forced Rome into this particularly vile heresy. Rather than honor the Virgin Mary, it actually slanders the character of her sinless life on earth. Lord have mercy.

Quote:
I've read that your Liturgy is really good, and I think I will attend a service to see for myself. I would dearly love to see us reunite. So many of the divisions are miniscule, but for me, I simply cannot let go of the mandate of Jesus to Peter and how He designated him as the Rock. We all believed and accepted for hundreds of years the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, yet the hubris of men on both sides broke that bond for you.
I would encourage you to attend a few services and experience it for yourself. You have an Orthodox Church right in your back yard. Go ahead and get the OK from your RC pastor to visit. He might even know the local Orthodox pastors. Some of the differences between the Churches are miniscule, some are not. Find out which is which. A Roman Catholic coming to Orthodoxy does not have to reject all its theology and practices of Rome (yet) .

Quote:
I simply cannot let go of the mandate of Jesus to Peter and how He designated him as the Rock. We all believed and accepted for hundreds of years the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, yet the hubris of men on both sides broke that bond for you.
The Scripture says what it says. I accept it whole and complete. So should you. I accept the primacy of Saint Peter among his fellow Apostles. I accept it because his fellow Apostles appear to have accepted it. Peter had humility as well. I have never read that Peter was an overbearing dictator, browbeating the other Apostles unless he got his way. Indeed, all Apostles were servants of the Lord, who they had all seen Resurrected in the flesh.

There is at least one Biblical example of Peter accepting council of St. Paul on the question of the need for Gentile converts to be circumcised before becoming Christians. Paul was shown humility as well, having been thrown from his horse on the road to Damascus, blinded by the light, and ultimately giving his life to the Lord. Indeed, humility was the touchstone of the Apostolic mission from the start.

In the Acts of the Apostles Saint Luke records that Peter and Paul both went and established the Church in the city of Antioch, where followers of Christ were first called Christians. Is there any Biblical record of any of the apostles traveling to Rome before Peter and Paul arrived in Antioch? If not, then Apostolic Succession appears to have begun then and there.

But succession aside, does one who propagates false doctrine have the authority to lead the Christian Church, regardless his earthly title or number of followers that he has managed to lead astray?

Quote:
Could you see yourself accepting that Primacy again?
At this point in time, that is not my decision to make. If at some future date, the sitting bishop of Rome acknowledges the historic theological errors of the Papal Church, repents of them and encourages all those in union with him to do the same, I will gladly revisit the issue. However, if Papacy and Orthodoxy agree to unite under false doctrine, I will have no need to revisit anything as the Christian Church will have ceased to exist on earth.

Kyrie Eleison.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:43 PM
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Cabinet Maker
Nothing would make me happier than for our divisions to be healed. Truly. And all the discussions here about them has further convinced me that hubris is at the heart of just about all of them…
It’s shocking to read about hubris from people who hold themselves as infallible.
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Old 07-19-2019, 12:14 PM
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How do you know? Did you have the opportunity to meet and speak with him personally? Did you introduce yourself as a neighbor? Did you disclose that you are a member of a local RC parish? Did he know your current pastor?
None of the above. I tend to give any clergy the benefit of the doubt. Is there something about Orthodox priests I should know?

Quote:
I totally agree. Christ’s entire earthly ministry was an exercise in humility. It was Our Lord that taught His Apostles about humility and its precursor to all repentance. There are numerous examples that the Apostles took these teachings to heart and applied them to their own earthly ministries.
They had only one focus. Spread the Good News the way they were taught. Time passed. Men think they know better than Jesus.

Quote:
Again, I completely agree. I think that at one level, the RCC agrees as well. The church welcomes Protestants to repent of their errors and return to the Catholic Church. The Papacy should be commended for that.
I wasn't talking about Protestants, but you are correct in that we want everyone to rejoin the original Church.


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Now I have to disagree here. From the Great Schism to the Reformation five hundred years. No one living today bears responsibility for the Reformation and what followed.
Again, I was referring to our Schism, not the Reformation. I agree no one living today is responsible for the Deformation, as no one living today is responsible for the Schism. Yet so many still treat the myths, misunderstandings and outright lies that perpetrate the divisions.

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I do not think God (ie the Trinity, Holy Spirit, inclusive) is offended (in a human sense) by anything. In the third century the bishops of the entire Church met at the First Ecumenical Council, discussed what was being taught in all places by successors to the Apostles. The Church of Rome participated in the Council along with the other Christian Churches of Apostolic foundation. Collectively, they established the Creed. The Creed serves the Christian Church by defining a perimeter around authentic Christian doctrine. What is inside is Christianity. What is outside the wire something else, call it whatever you want, just not Christianity. As a Roman Catholic, you KNOW this.
Jesus was certainly offended occasionally. God CERTAINLY was offended numerous times in the OT. But the threshold for their anger was a bit higher than the Filioque, which does absolutely NOTHING to affect the core beliefs we have. Your own Kallistos Ware understands that. Books have been written on the vagaries of language translations and Scriptural wording over this. Tempest in a teapot.

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NO. Orthodoxy teaches that the Virgin Mary became the Theotokos (Mother of God) when she responded to the Annunciation of the Angel Gabriel in the Gospel of Saint Luke:
In faith and obedience to the will of God, Mary replied to the angel, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be according to your word.” Upon her response, the angel departed.
It was her obedience to the will of God and her cooperation with the grace of God, during her earthly lifetime, in which God deemed her worthy of being the human mother of His Only Begotten Son. It had nothing to do with her own conception or birth.
Oh sure. No doubt God was casting about looking for some young thing to bear His Son, spotted Mary who seemed to be pious enough in her youth, and sent Gabriel down to check her out and see if she'd be willing TO BEAR THE SON OF GOD. You gotta be kidding.
Do you accept that Mary's human DNA is half of Jesus, or are you of the Protestant school of thought which defines Mary as nothing more than an incubator and nursemaid? You really believe that God would allow His Son to have any stain of Sin, Original or otherwise, through His human half? Why would you even consider that? Since we all have Original Sin upon conception, passed down from our parents, and since Jesus, being God, simply cannot be subject to that, we hold that God was proactive and erased it from Mary. The only pure soul since Adam and Eve. No human was, or ever will be more important or blessed by God than she. Without her, there is no Jesus. Period. You really think God would treat her like any other human? That just flies in the face of reason.


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From the day of my birth, I attended the RC Mass every Sunday until I was enrolled in Catholic School and began attending Mass during the week as well. I was RC for a total of 57 years. Until I entered an Orthodox Church about 10 years ago, I too thought that we (Roman Catholics) had a monopoly on honoring the Virgin Mary. I was simply wrong. Orthodox Christians venerate the Mother of God throughout the Divine Liturgy. At the mere mention of her name, the sign of the cross is made by all present, even one year olds. In every Orthodox Church I have ever entered, her icons are never out of view. They are reverenced almost constantly. Attend any Orthodox liturgy, anywhere in the world, and you will see for yourself.

The RCC does not honor the Virgin Mary more that Orthodoxy. The specific, relatively new, false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a heresy against the Christian Faith. When you find out WHY, it will be easy for you to identify the series of doctrinal novelties that forced Rome into this particularly vile heresy. Rather than honor the Virgin Mary, it actually slanders the character of her sinless life on earth. Lord have mercy.
I'm glad you venerate her, but again, nowhere near the level that we do, and you as a long time Catholic KNOW this. Do you need me to go down the laundry list of named Churches, Religious Orders, hospitals, Charities, schools, outreach programs, Missionaries, Shrines, etc.? I'll bet you said the Rosary a few times in your life until you decided it couldn't be good because it came from Mary herself and happened *gasp* hundreds of years AD.
We believe that Jesus still takes an active role in mankind, and uses His mother, the Saints, and private revelation to remind us of who we are, where we are going, and the necessity of prayer and reparation for Him to have mercy on us, and on the whole world. And Jesus seems to answer prayers for miraculous interventions A LOT, much less the Eucharistic Miracles given us which we certainly do not ask for. Solely a gift and reminder from Jesus.


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I would encourage you to attend a few services and experience it for yourself. You have an Orthodox Church right in your back yard. Go ahead and get the OK from your RC pastor to visit. He might even know the local Orthodox pastors. Some of the differences between the Churches are miniscule, some are not. Find out which is which. A Roman Catholic coming to Orthodoxy does not have to reject all its theology and practices of Rome (yet) .
I said I would attend, but I'm quite secure in my Faith, thanks.


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The Scripture says what it says. I accept it whole and complete. So should you. I accept the primacy of Saint Peter among his fellow Apostles. I accept it because his fellow Apostles appear to have accepted it. Peter had humility as well. I have never read that Peter was an overbearing dictator, browbeating the other Apostles unless he got his way. Indeed, all Apostles were servants of the Lord, who they had all seen Resurrected in the flesh.
Good. So you agree.

John 15:26, Jesus says he will “send” the Holy Spirit, just as he also says the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father.” Moreover, Jesus goes on to say:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I go not away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. John 16:7

Does this qualify for Scripture and acceptance?

Like I said, language and semantics.

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There is at least one Biblical example of Peter accepting council of St. Paul on the question of the need for Gentile converts to be circumcised before becoming Christians.
So? That correction was not a case of Faith or Morals. It was a reminder to practice what he preached. No different than an XO reminding his CO of a reg.


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Paul was shown humility as well, having been thrown from his horse on the road to Damascus, blinded by the light, and ultimately giving his life to the Lord. Indeed, humility was the touchstone of the Apostolic mission from the start.
Paul, the Jew and Christian hunter, got an exclamation point from Jesus. It apparently worked.


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In the Acts of the Apostles Saint Luke records that Peter and Paul both went and established the Church in the city of Antioch, where followers of Christ were first called Christians. Is there any Biblical record of any of the apostles traveling to Rome before Peter and Paul arrived in Antioch? If not, then Apostolic Succession appears to have begun then and there.
Huh? Apostolic succession was a given from the get go. Regardless, there are many documents attesting to the Eastern churches accepting and following the decisions by the Bishop of Rome.

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But succession aside, does one who propagates false doctrine have the authority to lead the Christian Church, regardless his earthly title or number of followers that he has managed to lead astray?
Spoken like a true Protestant. Your interpretation of Doctrine may vary.

So let's say the Pope, for whatever reason, makes pronouncements concerning matters of Faith and Morals. Scripturally, we are told BY JESUS, that the Holy Spirit would watch over and guide His Church, the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, and TO PETER, "Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven...whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven." No ifs, ands or buts. So we derive from that the fact that Jesus gave Peter sole power to guide His Church, and further that the Holy Spirit would guide him and prevent error. So when a true successor to Peter makes a determination regarding those Faith and Morals, we simply follow Jesus' declaration. Now any Pope who exceeds that authority could be in error, as there is no guarantee of the Holy Spirit's guidance.
(This, BTW, was the driving force for the codification of Papal Infallability. It always existed as Jesus intended. Some Popes took the concept a bit too far.) So when Pope Leo IX (IIRC) declared Mary's Immaculate Conception, (definitely in the F &M category), we accepted it. It was so important, that after Vat I codified the Doctrine of Papal Infallability, Pope Leo's pronouncement was given the imprimatur of being ex Cathedra. The only other ex Cathedra of course was Mary's Assumption. So again, do you want to go toe to toe on Mary's Veneration?


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At this point in time, that is not my decision to make. If at some future date, the sitting bishop of Rome acknowledges the historic theological errors of the Papal Church, repents of them and encourages all those in union with him to do the same, I will gladly revisit the issue. However, if Papacy and Orthodoxy agree to unite under false doctrine, I will have no need to revisit anything as the Christian Church will have ceased to exist on earth.
Lol. So you wouldn't even accept the decision by your 4 or 5 or ? Bishops if they didn't agree with your personal determination? Luther, is that you?
(Btw, you've got the procedure backwards).

You have a personal aversion to obedience like so many others, yet Jesus Himself set up His Church with Peter, and the Apostles, as the sole custodians and teachers of the Faith, Peter being the ultimate arbiter. That you decided to completely ignore the wish of Jesus because of personal animosity, real or imagined, is a fact. You just know better, I guess.


Quote:
Kyrie Eleison.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
And with your Spirit!
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No good comes from these denominational debate.
No matter how conciliatory you are, the denominational debates are certain to have zero productive effect.
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