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Old 02-14-2019, 05:54 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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i beg to differ. no adult male would consider circumcision willingly ...
I beg to differ:
And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Ico'nium. Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. (Acts 16:1-3)
OUCH!
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Perhaps you are unaware of the contradiction there.

Flesh does not make choices. If the sin nature is removed, the idea that there is still a choice to sin, willfully sin, makes a mockery of what was removed.

My faith is profoundly shaken by Col 2:10-11 in light of the priests making nuns sex slaves. Those who say, perhaps the priests and nuns never accepted Christ, is absurd in the extreme.

I am reminded of a minister talking about divorce. He said the statistics show Christians do not get divorced in 21st century America any less than non-Christians and that there ought to be some measurable difference in the lives of those who accept the all-powerful saving power of grace into their lives.

Going back to the idea that one is complete through our union with Christ, there should be no temptation to willfully sin EVEN IF that nature were not removed. Given, there is no measurable difference, ones sin nature is "removed" but you still have the capacity to willfully sin, shatters the illusion of a transformative power.* For course, I am only talking about in reality, in practice. In theory, in quoting more theology, one can contradict with reckless abandon.




So, there is a limit to the saving grace of Christ?

In the book Victory of Darkness by Neil Anderson, it clearly states that once we accept Christ, we already have a reservation in heaven, that is assured, i.e., past, present and future via positional and progressive sanctification, page 60. See Romans 8:35-39.


Denial may be an important survival trait.
Lily Thompson


* In the Star Wars Universe, the called, the Force sensitives, may fall to the dark side. However, they never lose their transformative power of being Force sensitive. Their connection to The Great Mystery is never lost. In this universe, it is just hot air, i.e., while some are transformed, others revert to natural man.

This reduces faith to a state of mind, always susceptible to changing back, and not proper trust in the faithfulness of an all powerful and good God.


Any temptation you face will be nothing new. But God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can handle....
1 Corinthians 10:13 (VOICE)
The sin nature cannot be removed from the flesh and it is the soul that makes the choice, the flesh is simply an 'earth suit'. Salvation is not certain if the soul decides to willfully sin and abide in that sin after receiving Christ. That is why Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is a one step process but abiding in Christ and sanctification is a process that is life long and if one chooses to go against God then they can throw away their salvation. This concept may not fit with what some people believe and teach but it fits with what the Bible says.

I am sorry that your faith is shaken but I suggest that you pray for understanding and God should open your heart and mind to the truth. Faith is a state of mind and heart. It is a decision for the most part, other than the measure of faith that is given as a gift. Our faith grows by working on a relationship with Jesus in obedience to Him through His Word.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:13 AM
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Default Colossians 2:22

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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.

Colossians 2:10-11 New Living Translation (NLT)
In reading the CEV translation of all of Colossians, I had a revelation, a connection with the Holy Spirit. The above Scripture is true WHEN one is communion with Christ. I feel at peace now with this.

Now onto Colossians 2:22. It seems to me this is referring to the OT, in general and Leviticus in particular (regarding what to eat and drink, etc). Does this imply that the OT are rules made up by man and not God?

After these things are used, they are no longer good for anything. So why be bothered with the rules that humans have made up?
Colossians 2:22
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:20 AM
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maybe you should get out more an enjoy life and not consume yourself with this trivel crud.cause there sure is not a DAM thing you can do about it.
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Old 02-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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Peter, you will remember in my post #8 I mentioned the Gnostics and Judiazers were telling the Colossians they had to "do" certain things to be saved or keep their salvation. Paul under the guidance of the Holy Spirit wrote the letter to the Colossians to refute what they were saying and to show them that Christ was pre-eminent and should be first in all things.

Quote:
Now onto Colossians 2:22. It seems to me this is referring to the OT, in general and Leviticus in particular (regarding what to eat and drink, etc). Does this imply that the OT are rules made up by man and not God?
The dietry laws were given to the Hebrews by God and were not made up by man. But when Christ was crucified and resurrected, the dietry laws were made of no effect. The is what the vision of Peter in Acts 10:9-16 was all about.

However the Gnostics and Judiazers were saying the Colossians were to keep some of them. So Paul told them in chapter 2 to beware of this and not do it.
Quote:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Quote:
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22* Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Paul is saying that now that you are a believer you are dead to the rudiments or principles of the world. Paul is meaning as a Christian you are not subject to the old dietry laws of the Hebrew Old testament. The words "touch not ... perish ...are a parenthetical phrase which is why its in Parenthesis in the KJV translation. It is describing the ordinances. Read the verses 20-22 and leave that phrase out. Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, ...after the commandments and doctrines of men? The Colossians were not under the Hebrew law and didn't need to obey the Old testament ordinances, which now would be just doctrines of men since Christ had freed the Christians of them.


Reading other versions or translations of the Bible besides the KJV or maybe the NKJV will only lead to confusion as they are not in many cases giving the true words of God. These new translations were made to make money. Very few translations are in the public domain and not copyrighted. If you do study out of one of the translations that are copyrighted, you should read the same passages in the KJV to see what was left out.

Jesus said to Satan during his 3 temptation in the desert
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Mat 4:4* But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Not a paraphrase but every word.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:55 PM
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The dietry laws were given to the Hebrews by God and were not made up by man. But when Christ was crucified and resurrected, the dietry laws were made of no effect.
Then why is it referred to here as manís rules?

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Originally Posted by pinkerpv View Post
Reading other versions or translations of the Bible besides the KJV or maybe the NKJV will only lead to confusion as they are not in many cases giving the true words of God.

Not a paraphrase but every word.
Sorry pinkerpv but Jesus did not speak the Kings English. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the value of translations.

Under no circumstances an I going to read books written in Middle English or older languages.
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:51 PM
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The dietary laws were given to the Hebrews by God and were not made up by man. But when Christ was crucified and resurrected, the dietary laws were made of no effect.
Quote:
Then why is it referred to here as man’s rules?
When Christ was crucified and resurrected the dietary laws were rescinded by God. That is what Peter's vision in Acts 10:9-16 was all about. For a Hebrew Christian, which Peter was at that time, the Hebrew dietary laws were no longer a command to obey. So anyone who became a Christian did not have to obey them. If someone said they did have to obey them, then that command was from men not God. It became a man's rule and not God's because God rescinded the dietary laws when Christ was crucified and resurrected. We know that because of what God said to Peter in his vision.

So Paul is saying in Colossians 2:22 by saying the "touch not, taste not, handle not" were commandments and doctrines of men.


As far as reading the translations, I understand. I sometimes look at other translations too but always go back to the KJV for truth and for any opinions. It is one of the few you can trace the modern day English word back to the original Hebrew or Greek. Some translations are better than others but none are as accurate as the KJV. If you have any questions i will always be glad to help as much as I can.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:24 PM
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Sorry pinkerpv but Jesus did not speak the Kings English. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the value of translations.

Under no circumstances an I going to read books written in Middle English or older languages.
However, the issue is not is Middle English, it is the use of non use of dynamic equivalence and use of esoteric texts. Also, the NKJV is in modern English. Using the CEV to try and fix a misunderstanding caused by the use of the NLT is unhelpful.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:21 PM
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However, the issue is not is Middle English, it is the use of non use of dynamic equivalence and use of esoteric texts.
Nonsense. Middle English is the issue! I don't speak or read it. The CEV & NLT are translations I prefer. They are made for people like me and evidently, not people like you.

These are the best Bibles for me - and millions of others. Batko once wrote the best bible is the one you read.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:16 PM
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Nonsense. Middle English is the issue! I don't speak or read it.
The NKJV is written in modern English.

Quote:
The CEV & NLT are translations I prefer. They are made for people like me and evidently, not people like you.
Thatís your preference. I prefer accuracy.

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These are the best Bibles for me - and millions of others. Batko once wrote the best bible is the one you read.
Read and accurately conveys Godís thoughts.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:13 PM
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The NKJV is written in modern English.
Absolutely not! The syntax is archaic.

Although the words are modernized, thee and thou for you and I. However, hope, right, you are as Yoda said is NOT modern English.

Translations not having "James" in the title are accurate. Better yet, they are written in a manner people have talked in the last century. Frankly, any translation NOT having "James" in the title are preferred by me.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:09 PM
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I'm going to do something I don't usually do, I'm going to paste in an entire annex from the AENT, concerning circumcision.

Colossians 2:10. And in him you are also complete because he is the head of all principalities and authorities. 11. And in him you have been circumcised with a circumcision without hands, by casting off the flesh of sins by a circumcision[9] of the Mashiyach (Messiah).
[9] See Circumcision in Appendix.
Circumcision

There are zealots of all religions who “demand a performance” of new converts so they can claim them as their followers. Little has changed in 2,000 years. In the days of the Shlichim (Emissaries/Apostles) circumcision was used as one of these elements of “performance.” The Shlichim were clearly unified on the principle of circumcision but the application of when and why brought contention.

There were fanatics who pushed for premature circumcision before the candidate understood the important elements of Covenant, while others felt all Gentiles had to be circumcised before they could be part of Mashiyach. Jeremiah 9 specifically states that circumcision in the flesh (because it is a local custom in Edom, Moab, Egypt) does not in itself satisfy Covenantal obligation with YHWH unless a person also lives an upright life which is what establishes his circumcision.

The very same, of course, can be said of “baptism” or “saying the sinners prayer”; both are utterly useless if a person does not turn from their sin and follow Mashiyach, but that’s not what false religion tries to make us to believe. False religion has a “salvation pill” – cunningly devised fables that get people “saved” – but all false religions base their authority on one sort of theological elixir or another. There is little point in being circumcised or baptized unless a person demonstrates that the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) is working in their heart and that they desire to conform their lives to Mashiyach, the Word of YHWH. It was on this simple and basic principle that all the controversy and confusion over circumcision was generated. Rav Shaul (Rabbi Paul) taught that faith and intent of the heart determines whether or not a person is ready to be circumcised and walk in Torah. At no time did Shaul (Paul) ever teach against either circumcision or Torah; however, he opposed the “traditions of the Pharisees” who demanded blind observance to their religious traditions. Rav Shaul required that Gentile converts be taught about Covenant and have clear understanding of what they were doing in relationship to YHWH and His Mashiyach because, to be expected to know and observe complex halakha at early stages of belief was unacceptable. Both the Pharisees and Netzarim taught that a person must study to develop their understanding and establish the intent in their heart before circumcision, rather than to blindly follow the wishes of others. Only a small group of zealots demanded immediate circumcision, which is something Rav Shaul clearly opposed.

It is very evident that Awraham received instruction before his circumcision, and he is the father of Faith for both Jews and Gentiles alike. Awraham (Abraham) was circumcised at age 99 after receiving the commandment directly from YHWH; therefore, each adult also must first be called and agree to enter into Covenant with YHWH. Awraham was counted righteous before he was circumcised because he had Faith to observe all that YHWH commanded. Based on this fact, those who are not as yet circumcised in the flesh but who fulfill and observe Torah, will judge those who are circumcised and know the scriptures well, but yet transgress against Torah. Torah has equal weight; no one can pick and choose what they wish to believe of the Scriptures and still hold themselves to be qualified enough to judge others. One could be physically circumcised (or baptized) and still be a thief, liar, adulterer, murderer, etc.

The whole key to understanding the matter of circumcision is to realize that religious tradition had distorted it into something far different from what YHWH intended. Most Christians tend to blow way out of context “circumcision is nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19), as if that were the message Rav Shaul intended – which is a falsehood because the next part of the verse states, “neither is uncircumcision; but the keeping of Elohim’s commands.” In other words, those who have not been circumcised are no better off than those who are. So, even if neither group is keeping Torah, circumcision itself is still one of YHWH’s commandments. Paul says, “For in Mashiyach Y’shua (Jesus) , circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing, but faith is completed through love” (Galatians 5:6). He is most certainly not anti-circumcision, but he does speak of “faith that is completed through love,” which reveals the intent of the heart to act according to righteousness.

Rav Shaul makes it very clear that those who follow Mashiyach must also fulfill the steps of faith of our father Awraham. “For he received circumcision as the sign and the seal of the righteousness of his faith while in uncircumcision: that he might become the father of all them of the uncircumcision who believe; and that it might be reckoned to them also for righteousness: And the father of the circumcision; not to them only who are of the circumcision, but to them also who fulfill the steps of the faith of our father Awraham in (his) uncircumcision” (Romans 4:11, 12).

Being circumcised for justification is a moot point; every student of the Word knows this. But does this mean that non-Jews should be instructed not to be circumcised? No! If they desire to be circumcised they do it unto YHWH; if they choose not, then they choose not to be circumcised unto YHWH; so whether they get circumcised or not, they do it unto YHWH according to His Mashiyach. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that a person should not get circumcised; however, when they do it, they must do so for the right reasons. Ironically, large numbers of Christians have their newborns circumcised for “health reasons” but most of these same Christians are against circumcision “as the sign and the seal of righteousness” of faith. The Christian world has had a very difficult time comprehending that the physical actions of obedience are to come after spiritual convictions (faith) are written upon the heart, and that physical actions of obedience
guide the spiritual man away from carnal lifestyles.

Now I say, that Y’shua the Mashiyach ministered to the circumcision in behalf of the truth of Elohim in order to confirm the promise (made) to the fathers; And that the Gentiles might glorify Elohim for his mercies upon them, as it is written: I will confess to you among the Gentiles, and to your name will I sing psalms. And again he said: Rejoice, you Gentiles, with His people. And again he said: Praise MASTER YHWH, all you Gentiles; (and) laud him, all you nations. And again Isaiah said: There will be a root of Jesse; and he that shall arise will be a prince for the Gentiles; and in him will the Gentiles hope” (Romans 15:8-12). There is certainly no division between Jews and Gentiles here. Instead, Paul makes it very clear that Mashiyach ministered to the circumcision and calls Gentiles to rejoice with “His people,” rather than hacking away at the Renewed Covenant and turning it into a license to sin or treating it as though it was originally given to Gentiles.

What then is the superiority of the Jew? Or what is the advantage of circumcision? Much in every way. And first, because to them were entrusted the words of Elohim” (Romans 3:1, 2).

Romans 1:16; 2:9 and 10 also indicates that Jews were offered the Kingdom first, through the Covenant promise given to Avraham that carried on to Yitzak (Isaac), Ya’akov (Jacob) and all the Children of Israel, through Faith. Clearly there is only one Kingdom that Gentiles could be grafted into.

At that time YHWH said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins” (Joshua 5:2, 3).

This act of circumcision in the Name of YHWH separated the Israelites unto YHWH: “And YHWH said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day” (Joshua 5:9).

There is only one way to roll away the reproach of paganism from Greco-Roman based Gentile Christianity, and it happens to be the same method as for Jews: Each one must put Faith in Mashiyach Y’shua and let the Ruach haKodesh, by Grace, write Torah upon the heart. By nullifying Torah, the Christian world has become as culpable of transgression as rebellious Israelites, the name “Christian” means to be “Christ-like” rather than simply calling oneself a: ___________________ (fill in the name of your denomination of choice).

Greek followers of Y’shua who were being trained up by his disciples, were caught between two opposite worlds. They could one day be invited to a bris milah (covenant of circumcision) party, and the next, attend a gymnasia event where their uncircumcised countrymen competed in the nude. Circumcision was detestable within Greek and Roman culture, so Jews who participated in the Greek games underwent operations to reverse their circumcision (epispasm). This simply turned these Jews into a laughing stock of those whom they imitated, but this same cultural status quo value also caused Greek-based Christianity to reject circumcision, and spawned theologies that suited their anti-circumcision culture. The Gentile Christians allowed worldly culture to influence their religious choices just as much as the Jewish world let religious traditions override the authority of the Word of YHWH.

Paul never discounted circumcision one bit, but he did enlighten people to the fact that circumcision comes after Faith, after a person believes, after they have made a lifestyle change: “And the father of the circumcision; not to them only who are of the circumcision, but to them also who fulfill the steps of the faith of our father Awraham in (his) uncircumcision” (Romans 4:12).

Awraham’s physical circumcision came some time after he believed and had faith, so it is with everyone else who puts their Faith in YHWH and His Mashiyach. While Rav Shaul never discounted physical circumcision, he clearly rejected false religious traditions that turned circumcision into a device to micromanage new converts. This principle also applies to forced baptism or conversion, which is a senseless and wicked thing to do to another human being. Nevertheless, circumcision came to be viewed as a “Jewish thing” rather than being honored as an act of Covenant faithfulness toward YHWH.

Circumcision by faith also has a prophetic future component: “And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant” (Genesis 17:14).

Isaiah then says, “Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean” (Isaiah 52:1).

Y’shua Mashiyach alludes to these garments in Matthew 22:11 “And the king entered to see the guests, and he saw a man there who was not wearing the attire of a wedding.”

Y’shua used this parable to teach about his return for his bride: The wedding is the Kingdom of Elohim being brought to Earth, and Tsiyon will don beautiful garments, which is referring to the righteousness of Mashiyach within the Kedoshim (Set Apart People).

Ezekiel also stated: “Thus says YHWH Elohim; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor
uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel
” (Ezekiel 44:9).

These prophecies of Isaiah and Ezekiel will be fulfilled in the Millennium when Mashiyach will rule and reign and the whole Earth will shine with the Glory of Elohim, but it also contains a very clear directive for “the stranger,” not bloodline Israel, who will also be physically circumcised. Therefore, anyone who teaches an ultimatum against circumcision is clearly disparaging the Word of YHWH, the teachings of Y’shua and Paul, and the intent of Torah.

My brothers, if I then preached circumcision, why was I persecuted? Why? Has the stake ceased to be an offense? Oh that those who are also troubling you would be expelled!” (Galatians 5:11-12)

If Paul had preached the “party line,” the Pharisees would have taken him back with open arms. But from the dawn of time – Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel and onwards – every soul on Earth has always been and is being judged according to the intent of the heart, and this will be consistent to the end of time. Neither is there any variance or shadow of turning within the intent of the Word of YHWH; but mankind has a propensity to judge Torah as being unjust or too burdensome when, in fact, it is man who is a burden to YHWH by thinking himself to be wiser, more modern and more refined than the giver of life. If someone, Jewish or Christian, chooses to be circumcised, it is between them and YHWH. It is not up to religious people to judge others or condemn them for what they feel is pleasing unto YHWH. The reality, of course, is that carnal man simply does what is pleasing to himself, and he seeks the Word of YHWH to endorse what is right in his own eyes.

The Renewed Covenant was given to the house of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8), but includes all who join; meaning the Renewed Covenant is not a “Jewish thing” only, nor is there a division between what Jews observe and what “Elohim Fearing” non-Jewish disciples of Y’shua observe. The Kingdom of Elohim is open for all to enter, and we are all called into His Kingdom on His terms, not ours.

Y’shua restored the Ancient Path spoken of in Jeremiah 6:16. The Brit Chadasha (Renewed Covenant) was offered by YHWH so that both Jew and Gentile can fully embrace Torah in Mashiyach. Unfortunately, this isn’t always easy because those living among Christians are persecuted for observing Torah and those living among Jews are persecuted for proclaiming Y’shua! Religion is comfortable but Truth demands sacrifice; nothing has changed in 2,000 years. The Shlichim/Apostles did not invite new converts for brit milah (covenant of circumcision) without first witnessing that the study-faith context and intent of the heart was established. There is no evidence in the Ketuvim Netzarim that the Shlichim prohibited circumcision of Gentiles; this would have presented an inequality between Jew and Gentile, which is simply not done in Mashiyach. In reality, the Covenant of circumcision was given to mankind as a sign in the flesh to also remind a person that they belong to YHWH and His Mashiyach.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:41 AM
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Default Working on The Sabbath

One of the most heartless passages of the whole Bible to me is the Pharisee's opposing Jesus performing miracles. These miracles were not turning straw into Gold but curing the sick and casting out demons, e.g., Mark 3:2-6. Still, the Bible is explicit.

You have six days in which to do your work. But the seventh day must be dedicated to me, your Lord, as a day of rest. Whoever works on the Sabbath will be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 (CEV)


Exodus does not allow any qualifiers, such as "unless it is a matter of life and death" which most of Jesus work on the Sabbath was not. How do you reconcile this? (And please, don't tell me about the heart of the Pharisee's or the intent unless you are willing to say Ex 35:2 is invalid, i.e., wrong).
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:43 AM
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One of the most heartless passages of the whole Bible to me is the Pharisee's opposing Jesus performing miracles. These miracles were not turning straw into Gold but curing the sick and casting out demons, e.g., Mark 3:2-6. Still, the Bible is explicit.

You have six days in which to do your work. But the seventh day must be dedicated to me, your Lord, as a day of rest. Whoever works on the Sabbath will be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 (CEV)


Exodus does not allow any qualifiers, such as "unless it is a matter of life and death" which most of Jesus work on the Sabbath was not. How do you reconcile this? (And please, don't tell me about the heart of the Pharisee's or the intent unless you are willing to say Ex 35:2 is invalid, i.e., wrong).
What is work? Effort for personal profit. Eliminate the profit motive and it becomes something else (a hobby, a charitable endeavor). The commandment doesn’t read “Thou shalt do nothing on the sabbath.”

You can still see the absurdity with which Jews look at the Ten Commandments today. If you go to Israel, elevators work normally six days a week. On the sabbath, they are set on automatic with stops on every floor lest you do the work of pushing an elevator button. You see this elevators running on automatic and verses like “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!” (Matthew 23:23-24) come to life.

With the Lord’s pardon, let me make my humble attempt to engage in some extreme dynamic translation of the commandment.

“You will not be so greedy as to spend 100% of your week working. You will set aside one day a week to remember me. Because if you are so greedy as to work seven days a week, you’re going to end up like that camel that can’t fit through the eye of a needle that my Son will tell you about.”
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:00 AM
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PeterEnergy PeterEnergy is offline
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What is work? Effort for personal profit.
It's cute that you are attempting to redefine words to achieve your purpose, but no. W = F x d. "Not working" means resting, a body, F, at rest, meaning d = 0.

It matters not what purpose the F or d is.

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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
You can still see the absurdity with which Jews look at the Ten Commandments today.
It is not the 10 Commandments but the unqualified statement of Ex 35:2, Whoever works on the Sabbath will be put to death, that is absurd.

I recall certain passages from Paul, like women should not have authority over men, are to be taken as a cultural reference and NOT a universal statement, e.g., female teachers who Paul applauded at the same time.

I suspect Ex 35:2 is similar. In our culture, too many are lazy and do not work enough. See the epidemic of obesity. So, there is no danger of over-working on the Sabbath today. However, most still fail to honor God on that day.

My point is not to condemn the Pharisee's for properly applying the unqualified Biblical standard. The point is the Biblical standard of Ex 35:2 cannot withstand scrutiny and Jesus rationally violated it but not with impunity. The Pharisee's acted on Ex 35:2 in crucifying Him. Had Ex 35:2 not been there, they would not have been so predisposed.

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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
With the Lordís pardon, let me make my humble attempt to engage in some extreme dynamic translation of the commandment.

ďYou will not be so greedy as to spend 100% of your week working. You will set aside one day a week to remember me. Because if you are so greedy as to work seven days a week, youíre going to end up like that camel that canít fit through the eye of a needle that my Son will tell you about.Ē
I like that MUCH better than Ex 35:2. Very well said.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:54 AM
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Watchingtheweasels Watchingtheweasels is online now
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It's cute that you are attempting to redefine words to achieve your purpose, but no. W = F x d. "Not working" means resting, a body, F, at rest, meaning d = 0.

It matters not what purpose the F or d is.
Trying to use a mathematical definition from physics regarding work is silly in this context. If I am reading something work related or thinking about something work related, I am exerting neither force, nor moving anything any distance, so by that very limited definition, I'm not working.

The primary definition for work in Webster's dictionary is "to perform or fulfill duties regularly for wages or salary." So as you see, financial reimbursement for the performance of those duties is fundamental to the definition of work. So my point is 100% in line with the dictionary definition - I'm not the one trying to redefine anything.

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I recall certain passages from Paul, like women should not have authority over men, are to be taken as a cultural reference and NOT a universal statement, e.g., female teachers who Paul applauded at the same time.
I'm not sure why you think that's a cultural reference as all orthodox (little o) Christian churches hold to this mandate to this day. Those that have departed from this standard have fallen into a variety of outright heresies within a generation or two.

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My point is not to condemn the Pharisee's for properly applying the unqualified Biblical standard. The point is the Biblical standard of Ex 35:2 cannot withstand scrutiny and Jesus rationally violated it but not with impunity. The Pharisee's acted on Ex 35:2 in crucifying Him. Had Ex 35:2 not been there, they would not have been so predisposed.
Jesus didn't violate the sabbath with impunity as you state, he explained it, as I have. The pharisees were understanding it to mean "don't do anything on the sabbath" as they sought to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel (Jesus' words). Finally, this was not why they cruicifed him, as the Bible states why they did.

"But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death." Mathew 26.

and

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

The answers are there, you only have to accept the divine revelation and stop trying to set yourself up as judge of scripture.

That last verse from John is also a reminder to any non-Trinitarians. Jesus absolutely had the opportunity to correct them if that was not his claim.
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Old 02-22-2019, 11:21 AM
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PeterEnergy PeterEnergy is offline
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Trying to use a mathematical definition from physics regarding work is silly in this context. If I am reading something work related or thinking about something work related, I am exerting neither force, nor moving anything any distance, so by that very limited definition, I'm not working.
Work. "Work related." Not the same thing.

You can think about turning the page of what you are reading all day long. As soon as you do it, it be work.

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I recall certain passages from Paul, like women should not have authority over men, are to be taken as a cultural reference and NOT a universal statement, e.g., female teachers who Paul applauded at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
I'm not sure why you think that's a cultural reference as all orthodox (little o) Christian churches hold to this mandate to this day.
Could not do "the work" of reading AND UNDERSTANDING the part in blue eh?

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Jesus rationally violated it but not with impunity.
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Jesus didn't violate the sabbath with impunity as you state
Yea, that is what I mean when I said he did NOT to that.

If you are attempting to deny Jesus violated Exodus 35:2, that is absurd. Jesus was a rebel before he was a martyr - a rebel for righteousness. He did not merely oppose the Pharisees but Old Testament verses that no longer made sense, such as Exodus 35:2 - if they ever did, such as the culture in which it was written. In referencing David and his friends in Matthew 12, Jesus was rationally justifying doing work on the Sabbath. He did not deny doing work on the Sabbath or play word games as you do.

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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
The pharisees were understanding it to mean "don't do anything on the sabbath"
That is precisely what Exodus 35:2 states: don't work = "don't do anything on the sabbath" + a death penalty, so you know there is no fooling around.

You have six days in which to do your work. But the seventh day must be dedicated to me, your Lord, as a day of rest. Whoever works on the Sabbath will be put to death.
Exodus 35:2 (CEV)


Watchingtheweasels, I appreciate you responding to the challenge of reconciling Scripture to reality. However, redefining words is not the way. I'm offering a cultural reference as a possible path way but you are strongly rebuking it. So, that leaves it unreconciled OR have words mean whatever you want them to mean. (Jesus points out in Matthew 12:5 that the priests worked on the Sabbath (presumably performing circumcision). So, Jesus standard of work violates even your attempted word play of work being limited to personal profit).

Clearly and repeatedly, Jesus worked on the Sabbath. And according to Ex 35:2, he was rightly crucified for it. The rationalist in me can support the Commandment to keep holy the Sabbath Day but Ex 35.2 is indefensible.
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:33 PM
CaffeineBuzz CaffeineBuzz is offline
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This seriously shook your faith, or was this hyperbole?

I realize this will probably go over like a fart in church, but I don't worry about my perceived cognitive dissonance when reading scripture because I don't worship scripture. Only God is perfect. The bible may not be. (even the king james version :O)
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Old 02-22-2019, 04:23 PM
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This seriously shook your faith, or was this hyperbole?
Yes. I fell for the mechanical viewpoint. Cut a hole in a container at the bottom and its water contents will leak out. If we are spiritually circumsized from sin AND complete in Jesus, sin should have no allure.

Experience proves this incorrect.

Continuing with the mechanical viewpoint in the context of The Armor of God, the armor only works when you put it on, WHEN YOU ARE IN COMMUNION WITH CHRIST. It is untrue that you put on protective gear, even sunscreen, one time and it protects you for life. No, you have to re-apply it EACH time. It works but only when used as directed.
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