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Old 05-29-2020, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Faultyphoenix View Post
There is no good solution. Replacements would be no better, I agree. Just saying, if you really get down past the bs answers of why people become cops like "to serve and protect", the real reason makes me nervous
MY reasons were simple
.
I am an adrenaline junkie and had just returned from an exciting all expense paid adventure vacation visiting exotic foreign lands

I refused to live chained to a desk

I did not ever want to be in a occupation where repetitive boredom would be the cause of my death

I liked guns

and

I really really really hate bullies.

I moved a lot growing up. Never at the same school for more than 2 years until after I got to college. Every move the game was pick on the new kid. When they found out that was not a good game to play I would keep those same bullies from picking on the weaker kids.

Police work seemed like a natural.
Yes, my point. You became a cop to control people. And adrenaline junkie etc. At least you get right to it. Most cops can never get to that conclusion.
I just distrust any proffesion whos goal is to control people. My only point. Agree or not. Politicians think they are serving too, by controlling people.
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:38 PM
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NW GUY NW GUY is offline
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Yes, my point. You became a cop to control people. And adrenaline junkie etc. At least you get right to it. Most cops can never get to that conclusion.
I just distrust any proffesion whos goal is to control people. My only point. Agree or not. Politicians think they are serving too, by controlling people.
IF you define wanting to control people as keeping BAD people from hurting people too weak to defend themselves than yes.

If you think I did it so I could be a fascist and "control people " as an authoritarian... then we are gonna have a very long night.
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:17 PM
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Don't take this in any way as condoning the actions of the Minneapolis PD officers, or defending the actions of the victim in this case prior to his death, I just want everyone to stop a minute and think . . .

Think about how every day a person in a police uniform is lied to, spat at, flipped off, degraded, and berated, just because they happen to be wearing said uniform.

….......
And AGAIN the answer is LEAVE THE HIVE. NOT for some suburb.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:17 PM
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Departmental dynamics are hard to understand for outsiders.
but
as this develops it is going to be interesting to find out the relationships of the 4 officers with each other. My guess is the cop on the neck would be the BD or have way higher seniority to the other guys there.

Derek Chauvin was a 20 year vet... The other officers had something like 8 years between them.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Faultyphoenix View Post
Yes, my point. You became a cop to control people. And adrenaline junkie etc. At least you get right to it. Most cops can never get to that conclusion.
I just distrust any proffesion whos goal is to control people. My only point. Agree or not. Politicians think they are serving too, by controlling people.
IF you define wanting to control people as keeping BAD people from hurting people too weak to defend themselves than yes.

If you think I did it so I could be a fascist and "control people " as an authoritarian... then we are gonna have a very long night.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/tapedshut.gif[/IMG]
I'm not saying you're fascist. Or any cop. Cops are necessary. It's not about politics, it's about personal psychology.
It's only my flawed opinion. You're allowed to have your opinion too.
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:33 AM
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It surprises me that the entire nation of cops has been painted with the same brush. Its a dirty job that packs a lot of violence and resistance but its needed to maintain order. Its going to be difficult to find new people to fill the positions. Its hard to believe that a mistake made by one policeman could bring this result.

The only thing that will stop the riots and looting is aggressive law enforcement. We can't allow them to continue to loot and burn. Floyd is and excuse that doesn't fly. Pacification of the rioters will lead to more people looting because they want their fair share. I've seen this happen before.
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tedlovesjeeps71 View Post
So out of curiosity, what is your solution?
Disband ALL police departments in the US?
What’s your magical fix, I gotta know.
Hold cops to the same legal standard as the rest of us. That rarely happens, we all know that.

No magic needed.

This particular case seems to be the tipping point. Hopefully the " few bad apples " get convicted.
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:45 AM
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That is the most ridiculous uneducated comment I have read all day. That is the exact same way of thinking that someone might use and say something like all preppers or survivalists are nuts. Like any occupation law enforcement represents a cross section of America. I bet if you really got to know and spoke with police officers they are glad when the "bad apples" are found out and fired and/or prosecuted. They well understand that the public trust is of extreme importance to allowing them to do their job effectively. You say some really silly things but your statement takes the cake.
So glad you disagree.

Uneducated? No.

I include federal agencies like the FBI, DEA, and ATF with local and state police. Their track record for murder and getting away with it is why I feel the way I do.

My ROE overseas with animals trying to cut my head off for kicks was more restrictive than the rules and regs for police.

Your outrage at my statement is noted, and I simply don't care.

Have a great day.
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:58 AM
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Hold cops to the same legal standard as the rest of us. That rarely happens, we all know that.

No magic needed.

This particular case seems to be the tipping point. Hopefully the " few bad apples " get convicted.
THEN It will not surprise you when the three other cops standing by are eventually found guilty of NOTHING... if they are ever charged, which will probably happen just to stop the fires, but taking them to court.. gonna be a long tough road.

They would have violated some department regs, ie dereliction of duty MAYBE, but believe it or not they had NO obligation to pull the guy off of the handcuffed prisoner... who was NOT being killed by the officer(per the autopsy), just restrained. IT was a lawful arrest, who could know he was going to stroke out? Certainly NONE of them. It looks bad, but looks really have no place in law.

And the Supreme Court, as many have reminded everyone so often when CCW rights are the topic, , has said the police owe no duty to protect specific individuals, it is a general expectation right of society that the police will protect them. (wonder how the shop keepers in Minn are looking at it now?)

Wonder what bond will be set?
The cop has a right to it and it cannot be excessive, it is against the Constitution. He is NOT a flight risk, where can he go, his face has been on every media outlet on the planet. He is at risk in confinement unless he is in solitary.
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Old 05-30-2020, 07:15 AM
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The police are above reproach, are never to blame and always do the right thing.
NOPE, WRONG on all counts
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:03 AM
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Derek Chauvin was a 20 year vet... The other officers had something like 8 years between them.
AND there ya go.

Those guys were following basically what every police department has had in place and done since they became police departments.

If he, Chauvin, was beating on him with a night stick it would be one thing, but keeping him pinned,.. HE was the senior guy and the one responsible for what was going on, including what the other three did or did not do..

hypothetical here
say one of the cops pulled Chauvin off, Floyd wasn't dead but playing possum, slipped his cuffs, jumped up and grabbed a gun off of one of the officers and started shooting and they had to kill him... in the department's eyes, it would still be Chauvin's fault because he was senior on scene and his to control, including the officer who started the whole thing circling the drain.
That is why there is such a rigid adherence to seniority.

We had minnie goat ropes take place where there would be people with more seniority then me on site, even before I arrived and a sgt would show up and would take the situation away from the higher seniority guy and give it to me because of the pecking order BD thing. Like I said, the inner working dynamics are hard to grasp for outsiders. BDs outrank seniority in certain situations.

we had lots of racial situations to deal with and every now and then some command person who had no real idea of what was going on would want to try something different as a response, and if I was going to be the senior officer on site, I would literally ask for the order in writing with a disclaimer that I would not be held responsible as the senior on site WHEN, not IF it went sideways. It was a great way to stop having to follow stupid orders. NOBODY in command would do something like that and as per our op orders I had a right to ask for written orders that may conflict with other written orders.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by iyaayas View Post
Hold cops to the same legal standard as the rest of us. That rarely happens, we all know that.

No magic needed.

This particular case seems to be the tipping point. Hopefully the " few bad apples " get convicted.

Is that true or is it simply more sensationalized when a cop is discovered to be dirty or the “system” covered up for him? I don’t disagree that there is some level of corruption and sweeping stuff under rugs. But I also don’t think it is as widespread and ingrained as we would be led to believe. There are a LOT of issues with the “system” as a whole but it always seems it is the LEO who is targeted far more than any other aspect.
As far as holding them to the same standard, do you think that is possible? Look at this event. With the release of this video we have millions of people who instantly have labeled this cop guilty and calling for him to be destroyed. A same standard would apply to him getting a fair trial, same as anyone else. But we now live in am the land of public opinion. Driven off of emotions and instantly overwhelmed by the electronic lynch mobs. This cop will get a trial but are you confident that it will be fair? Do you not think there will be some pressures applied to the judge and/or jury to convict regardless of facts in order to quell the massive riots we are seeing? Placate the masses by sacrificing one mans ability to be held to the same standard.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:12 PM
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Its easy to criticize police . Most do a thankless job. They ,like any group,are a reflection of the society we live in. They enforce laws that scum politicians bring in. Our anger should be directed at the ones that make bad laws not ones enforcing them.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Area Man View Post
Don't take this in any way as condoning the actions of the Minneapolis PD officers, or defending the actions of the victim in this case prior to his death, I just want everyone to stop a minute and think . . .

Think about how every day a person in a police uniform is lied to, spat at, flipped off, degraded, and berated, just because they happen to be wearing said uniform.
Really? Because someone somewhere, was mean to you, you think it's now excusable if you murder someone? Someone completely unrelated to the person who made you cry? If you slap me, can I punch out the barber 2 counties away?

*I'm not saying the officer in question murdered Floyd, I am withholding judgement on that.
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Old 05-30-2020, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
...hypothetical here
say one of the cops pulled Chauvin off, Floyd wasn't dead but playing possum, slipped his cuffs, jumped up and grabbed a gun off of one of the officers and started shooting and they had to kill him...
..Well then, Sir, I think that would be called 'Case closed', ya?

'Hypothetically', Chauvin could - and should have been Able to - keep the guy 'secured' (ie: knee to the shoulder-blades, etc - Somewhere Other than the carotid...) withOut having to - at the Very-least, Contribute - to his death..

..and, regardless, the (apparent) Fact that they Knew each other / quazi-worked together - Really throws a wrench in the works, and that-much Further throws Any 'just doing my job'-defense by Chauvin into serious question..

.02
jd
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:13 PM
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..Well then, Sir, I think that would be called 'Case closed', ya?

'Hypothetically', Chauvin could - and should have been Able to - keep the guy 'secured' (ie: knee to the shoulder-blades, etc - Somewhere Other than the carotid...) withOut having to - at the Very-least, Contribute - to his death..

..and, regardless, the (apparent) Fact that they Knew each other / quazi-worked together - Really throws a wrench in the works, and that-much Further throws Any 'just doing my job'-defense by Chauvin into serious question..

.02
jd

YOU had 3 minimum time cops looking at a 19 year vet who was in lead.
They are only going to do what he tells them to do.
That is how the system works
Just like the military.
All they were seeing was a very experienced officer exercising the restraint of a suspect under arrest as he saw the need and if he needed help he would ask. If he wanted them to go for coffee they would ask with cream or sugar?
With their experience and their previous work assignments they might not even have the experience to see the suspect MIGHT be in distress. I have had people who I was arresting who were upright and barely resisting screaming "You're killing me" just to get attention from the gathering crowds.

They get an honest police procedure expert on the stand telling the truth and it will be explained how those guys have been TRAINED into a system that has been in place since there were cops. It is endemic from the top down and it is what has been the operating principles of every large PD basically forever.
AND
It is that way because there are not ever enough ranked supervisors around to be involved in every street decision. So, the authority is officially unofficially established through the seniority system. Unless otherwise noted, senior guy is ALWAYS in charge, whether he is actively doing something or just watching. Otherwise you may have a cop with low time and exposure making decisions he shouldn't and no one has any obligation or duty to correct him because they aren't a supervisor or being paid for it or have the stripes for it.
OR
to put it another way.. I could arrive as the last cop on the scene of an incident, there are already 5 cops there involved in whatever, basically the second I arrive on scene. If I am the senior officer there, EVERYTHING that happens is now MY fault even though I set none of it in motion. So, if I just sit back and watch and it goes sideways, people hurt, bad things happen and I did nothing to stop it, even though I had nothing to do with it, it would be my head on the block. I became in charge the second I hit the scene. I have no rank, no one has officially designated me as being in charge, but when it is reviewed I can tell you I will be the one having to explain why the excrement hit the oscillating wind distribution device and explain why I didn't stop it, correct it or pull everyone out.

Like it, don't like it.. that is how the system works right now.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Spade View Post
It surprises me that the entire nation of cops has been painted with the same brush.
(The majority of) police paint the entire nation of 'civilians' as they are wont to label us, with the same brush.

Dogma, meet karma.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:23 PM
Rural Buckeye Guy Rural Buckeye Guy is offline
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Its cop psychology: black / white. Some love thier power, most hate being constantly lied to all day, every day, for decades. Most are either totally bored or see the public thier thier worst possible moment in thier lives. They are very cautious of guns but absolutely paronoid of knives because the first hint of thier presense is either a flash of movement or they are stuck to the hilt in thier body. So cops learn to be very cautious and react with massive force in any physical struggle before a wepon is deployed against them. This reinforces a very black / white view of the world: ****bag criminals vs citizens. Race has very litle meaning compared to criminality, and criminals develop predictable behaviors, that combined, tip off an observor. Cops look for behaviors. That keeps them alive longer. Much longer. No one cares if you agree, your opinion means nothing compared to results and getting home that night, every night.

So, treat them with civility. Dont lie to them. Have a thin blue line flag decale on your back bumper. Those are three things that ****bag criminals never, ever do.
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JBryan314 View Post
“A few bad apples” is a total BS argument. This is just how police operate in the US.
LOL, OK, whatever . . .

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Originally Posted by iyaayas View Post
Sorry, not buying the " few bad apples " argument anymore.
Because, as the following quote explains, the "good works" don't sell commercial time.

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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Are there some bad apples out there? Apparently -- yes. But they seem to be the exception to the rule and the only reason we know about them is because the Marxist News Agencies place them front and center while ignoring the good works of the good majority.
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
THEN you would have police departments that would never arrest anyone and never chance offending anyone because they could be fired at will.

You have no idea how many friends or relatives of "important people" run afoul of the law and that important person storms into the PD screaming "I want that man fired!"
and
it would happen because of politics or favoritism and such.
conversely
Just as you would have cops being told, "Go do this or that to that person, and they would do it or they could be fired with no protection.

You really do not want that.... ever...
So, please tell me about all the corrupt Chicago politicians and their family members arrested by Chicago cops in operations by the Chicago police department without the feds.

Or LA.

Or NYC.

Remember, no feds. purely city cops arresting city politicians and family in operations originated by and conducted by the city cops.
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