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Old 06-25-2019, 11:11 AM
Outpost75 Outpost75 is offline
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Here is a review of a class Matt Temkin presented for Gabe Suarez in 2007.
Those who actually train in point shooting sing a different tune than those who just quote the myths. Some may find the 7th paragraph especially meaningful:

Class: Interface Of Sighted Fire/Point Shooting
Instructor: Matt Temkin, Roger Phillips (assisting)
Prescott, AZ, When: 10/27-10/28, 2007

This is "Chan2" checking in. This was my first formal instruction in point shooting. I have been shooting for a little over a year, but that's long enough to be caught in the crossfire (pun intended) in the "Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire" holy war. I've read both sides, and after taking the class, it's easy to see that the whole "debate" really is assinine.

First of all, as the name of the class suggests, it is not an "either/or" proposition. Instructors grouped in the point shooting camp clearly state that point shooting has its applications, and sighted fire has its application. During the course of a fight, you may have to flow from one to the other.

Point Shooting is a concept, not a method. If you want to know how to do it, it's not some secret magic technique. Although Roger has succinctly described how to do it recently, Fairbairn and Applegate descibed it half a century ago in publications you can download for free.

If Point Shooting is a concept, does it take a two day class to teach this? Actually, it only took a couple of hours and about 200 rounds of ammo. The class is best described as Fast Effective Combat Shooting. The class teaches and conditions to get your gun into action quickly and effectively as possible to solve the problem at hand.

What Matt teaches is based on WWII techniques taught by Fairbairn and Applegate. The titles of some of the published sources he uses as references, "Shooting to Live" and "Kill or Get Killed" exactly describes the situations one is caught up in when this skill set is deployed. Matt also integrates his 17 years of firearms experiences as a police officer, trainer, and student into the curriculum, and encouraged us to take what we learn and run with it and make it grow.

Sighted fire has widespread appeal and point shooting is put down as voodoo science, I think because every aspect of sighted fire can be quantified and explained. Point shooting is more ambiguous, but I can tell you that within its envelope of effectiveness, point shooting is fasrt and accurate, with the emphasis on FAST. It shines when the shooter is behind the reaction curve and must deal with a bad guy who has initiated the action, exactly what most private citizen shooting scenarios entail.

The class will dispel a lot of myths that “Point shooting is no good at distances further than arm's length." "You can't point shoot while you're moving." "Point shooting is spraying and praying." Bravo Sierra~!

Point shooting controversial subject in the shooting community, but having experienced it firsthand, I am ready to make my own controversial statement. Ready? Here it is:

Point shooting is not for the faint of heart. Now let me explain.

What does this mean? It's not that the "techniques" are some secret, that once revealed, will be so shocking that your hair turns white and your heart will stop in three days. What it means is this: the key in owning this and doing your best using point shooting as taught in this class is pure aggression. If you take this trying to learn techniques, or taking each exercise as only a drill to sharpen skills, it will only take you so far. However, if you apply it by taking the fight to the enemy without thought you will achieve almost superhuman feats.

Okay, now I sound like I've joined the Point Shooting Cult. All I can say is that the targets don't lie. Matt was trying to clarify the statement that point shooting was "instinctive." As a twist to that, in light of what I said above, I would add that point shooting is primal. You can't think about. You can't be timid about it. Put on your warface and just do it.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, point shooting is not a replacement for sighted fire. After class I was shooting at a red gong on the other hill. It was pretty far away (anyone know how far that one was?). You bet I was using my sights (and I hit that thing too! After quite a few misses, of course). Use your sights when you need to, and when you can. You hear this all the time, but after this class you will know what it means.

This was a cool class with really cool people. I would say it is as eye-opening as your first FoF class. If you have a chance to study with Matt, please consider it. He's a man who has done his homework, and will hold nothing back from you. I can't thank Matt enough for this great experience.
__________________
Matt Temkin is a NYC Court Officer, Point Shooting and Combatives expert. For the record, Matt’s first instructor was one of Col. Darby’s original Rangers who saw combat in N. Africa and Italy (where he was wounded), was highly decorated, then became a Ranger instructor in close combat. That was Matt’s Dad…Matt also trained under Col. Rex Applegate, need I say more? Below is Matthew Temkin’s excellent four-part Point Shooting Lesson Plan. These were posted at his request and with permission. Due to their being transferred from one format to another, I have had to do some minor editing, mainly formatting so they would print properly. I did not alter Matt’s verbiage or instructions. Thank you and enjoy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Point Shooting Lesson Plan
(Parts 1 thru 4)
By Matthew Temkin

This plan is used as a handout for instructor classes. In order to follow along you need KILL OR GET KILLED (KOGK) and SHOOTING TO LIVE (STL).

How I Teach Point Shooting - Part 1

1) History of Fairbairn, Sykes and Rex Applegate. Since nearly everything taught in this system flies in the face of most other systems, you had better have a d**n good reason for your students--especially streetwise cops--to change. Stress the huge combat/training experience of these men. Review the "typical" gunfights as described by both Fairbairn (SMP, pages 2-5 of STL) and Applegate. (Pages 99-106, KOGK)

What happened then still applies today.

2) Define the term "instinct" as it applies to the system. (Last line on page 5 of STL onto page 6) It just means the ability to point a finger at an object with great accuracy. The training will now allow the gun to become an extension of the hand, and the finger an extension of the barrel.

3) How to grip the pistol. Place your finger on the trigger, on the first crease, and grip it until it shakes. This is the convulsive grip as taught by Fairbairn. The handgun should now be in perfect alignment with the Y of your hand. (See pages 107 and 129 of KOGK).

P107 P129

4) Basic drill - dry fire. The simplest method of getting the right technique is to grip the gun in a two hand "Pre Modern" Isosceles, with the feet in a "horse stance". (very slight crouch)

Now release your weak hand and hold the pistol only in your shooting hand. The gun should now be directly in your centerline. Test this by slowly bending your elbow until the barrel, near the front sight, touches your nose. (Just make sure the darn thing is unloaded, ok?)

You should now be in the position illustrated on pages 21-23 in STL.

Pg 21 Pg 22 Pg 23

The hallmark of the (beginning stages) of this drill is the square stance, convulsive grip, and the vertical lift.

I use the Q targets, and tell my students to concentrate on the Q. have them slowly raise the pistol from "low ready" and when they feel on target, have them trigger the shot with a convulsive squeezing of the entire hand. (Yes, I know. It is called milking the grip, and is considered a no-no. However, try it anyway.) The key is to lock the wrist and elbow, and lift only from the shoulder, while focusing your eyes on the exact spot you wish to hit. (See Applegate's video, SHOOTING FOR KEEPS for an illustration.)

Have them come up and fire the shot after a very slight pause...but without looking for the sights or the gun itself. As they progress, the tempo can be increased. Just make sure that they come down SLOWLY between rounds.

5) Live fire. Start at about 8 feet. Have them fire single shots. Most will be dead on. Many find that they are shooting out the Q very quickly and are amazed.

If the shots are going high, have them squeeze the pistol harder, as they would do in combat.

Too low? Slow them down.

Off center? Adjust the grip so that it cuts the body's centerline. See page 22 of STL for details.

6) Now it is time for bursts of two or more shots. Same drill as before, but now trigger two shots as fast as possible.

The "secret?" as Applegate so aptly put it, "Just pull the d**n trigger as fast as possible." If the shots open up a bit, have them clutch the pistol tightly, as they would in combat. Yes, it hurts, which is why it is time for a break.

During the breaks, or when loading mages, stress the importance of practicing with a slight crouch, convulsive grip, focusing in on the target, etc. Why? Because that it what happens quite often in combat, and must be insisted upon in practice. Also, the more real you make it in practice, the more accurate it becomes.

Break over.


7) Now we will repeat the basic two drills with one foot forward - which one is no matter - and we will bid farewell to the "square stance."

It was only meant as a training vehicle, anyway. The rest of the course will be done from the "One hand (So Called Modern) Isosceles. Position". In other words, the "MI" with only one hand. (The important thing is to keep the back heel slightly raised) Or as Applegate called it, the "Forward crouch position." (page 114, KOGK)

Pg 114

Again, both drills with first only one shot at the whistle, then "bursts of two or three."

We will now add movement to the method. Applegate was a firm believer in moving into the enemy if the range was short and there was no cover nearby. See page 125 of KOGK for more on this.

Special military/police units have devised several methods, the Graucho, heel-to-toe, etc., of advancing without bouncing. But since we are not trying to keep a sight picture when moving/running in, we can do so with any natural foot motion.

As long as the student is not bouncing, then he is doing fine.

Same drill, but do so while (slowly at first) moving in.

Work up to finally running in at full speed and firing away. The body will soon find that perfect blend of speed and accuracy, without the need for sights. (pages 127-129, KOGK)
________________________________________

How I Teach Point Shooting - Part 2

Part one normally takes about 50 rounds or so. All shots should be dead center, and should be covered by the palm of one hand.

We are looking for the ability to hit a man size torso hard, fast and often. As Fairbairn wrote, "Nail driving marksmanship will not cope with such (Firefights as described on pages 2-5 of STL) conditions."

1) Pivot/angle shots. I am well aware that nearly all shooting schools teach set ways of moving one's feet to engage a target to the flanks/rear. Both Fairbairn and Applegate warned against this. (See page 130, paragraph 2 for the exact quote, which is basically, "The shooter should change his body direction in any natural manner. Stay away from any set method of changing body direction. Terrain is uncertain, and the actual position of the feet in combat may not always be the same…”)

The real trick is not to swing your arm. The pivot and vertical lift should coincide, meaning as soon as your eyes lock on target you should be ready to fire. I should add that a step in after the pivot is a wonderful aid to accuracy and the proper combat mindset.

There are situations when you cannot move your feet at all, but must twist the body to get on target. No problem. But try to step in ASAP after the twist. See page 135 to 136 & the bottom of 138 for details.

2) Marching Drill. Once the student has both right/left and rear pivots down pat, have him walk parallel to a line of targets. Tell him to keep moving with the gun in the ready position" (page 114 of KOGK) and to wheel, turn and move in towards the nearest target "on the whistle."

Watch his feet, so you can blow the whistle sometimes when the left foot is forward, sometimes when the right is advanced.

3) Whether with or without the sights, shooters should be taught to focus/aim at the belly button. (See page 78 of STL for reasons why). Also, as my dad pointed out, you do not want to see a man's face when shooting to "stop", since doing so may slow you down.

4) Multiple targets. Place two targets side by side, about 5 feet apart. Engage them with movement, meaning stepping in to engage each target. Do not pause between shots, but fire only when your eyes lock on each target.

Eventually I work up to 4-5 targets staggered at various distances. Good results are surprisingly quick.

5) Use of Cover. See page 147 of KOGK. This is how Fairbairn taught it. For left side he taught to change hands, but Applegate felt that Cirillo's method made more sense. For best results, use the sights with both eyes open, and aim for the navel. (Bonus...doing so does not make the weapon block out the target.)

Pg 147

Moral? Learn both!!

The real "secret" of point shooting is to focus on the exact spot that you want to hit. With practice it is not necessary to have your body "squared" to the target, as one does in basic practice. Where the eyes go, the hands will follow.

6) Zipper drill. Start point shooting--rapid fire--while focusing on the navel. With each "burst of two" focus your eyes a bit higher and higher on the opponent’s body, finishing on the head.

The shots will go where you look, almost as if by magic. The pistol, BTW, should sound like a machinegun.

7) Head shots. Fire two shots into the chest. Without pausing, focus on the head and fire two more. When the 4 shots sound like one, and the headshots are dead center, you are doing it right.

Remember not to think or pause...just shoot.

Naturally this is a close range technique. But since the head shots are coming from below his eye level, he will never see it coming--as long as you do not PAUSE.

8) Mental Attitude. My dad always stressed--be it armed or unarmed combat--that it is not so much what you do that counts, but how aggressively you do it. See the bottom of page 141 into 143 of KOGK for Applegate's opinions on this vital element.

Postscript...

Whenever I teach a class or read comments that come up concerning some of my posts on other forums (Usually the ones who have banned me) two key objections normally are made.

1) Moving into the enemy. On Friday I was in my local gun shop when I ran into a guy who took my class a few years back and has since moved to Florida.

He told me the story of a cop in Broward county who was recently in a shooting. His gun ran dry and he had to pull his belt buckle mini revolver in .22 caliber. While firing he choose to charge into the BG, firing all the way. Several witnesses reported that the bad guy froze up as the cop was running in and presented an easier target to the officer.
Cop 1, BG 0

2) Shooting for the stomach area. A recent shooting of a NYPD Captain was related by one of my friends who is a police officer in the 28th PCT and was on the scene. The Captain had his gun out and was about to fire when the punk got off the first shot. The Capt was shot in the stomach area and was literally unable to pull the trigger. He then clutched his stomach, dropped his Glock and collapsed.

Thank goodness he survived.

Reread why Fairbairn & Sykes advised to focus in on this area.

IMHO too many self-defense experts spend way too much time arguing minor points and over analyzing techniques. Perhaps we should spend more effort heeding the advice of those who have been and done, even if it conflicts with our (untested) cherished beliefs.
________________________________________

How I Teach Point Shooting - Part 3

One of the flaws of Applegate's method was his insistence on point shoulder (arm fully extended at nose/chin level) over the closer range methods favored by Fairbairn, Sykes and Grant Taylor.

Much later on in life Applegate began teaching the 1/2 hip technique, which he called "Body Point."

In fact on his deathbed in 1998 Applegate told Hocking College's Steve Barron that he considered 1/2 hip to be the most vital aspect of combat shooting.

It should be noted that this was also the method that McSweeny favored in the majority of his tape.

In my armed guard classes we do both active role-playing and Shoot/Don't Shoot videos with CO2 pistols, sans projectiles of course.

In the majority of cases when the distance is within 2-3 yards I notice that most of my students would go into half hip even though they were never taught it.

Fairbairn mentions this on page 4 of STL..."If you have to fire your instinct will be to do so as quickly as possible, and you will probably do it with a bent arm, possibly even from the level of the hip..."

But first let us deal with 3/4 hip position.

Please turn to page 39 of STL. What Fairbairn is showing is the ready position that will naturally turn into 3/4 hip.

Pg 39

Face the target at about 9 feet and fire by bringing the gun up by lifting only from the shoulder. In other words, the wrist and elbow remain in the exact position shown. The pistol should be fired in bursts of 2-3 shots at about chest level.

The best example of this is the O.S.S. film, especially the part where Fairbairn is having the student chamber and fire in one motion. That pretty much shows how to do 3/4 hip from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

Half-hip - Go to page 123 of KOGK. Look at the small inset picture where the subject has the pistol way off his center line.

That is a perfect illustration of why hip shooting has gotten such a bad rap for decades. As with all but close hip, the pistol should be intersecting your center line. A good photo of the proper method is on page 124 of KOGK, but ignore Applegate's warning as to the dangers of the technique.

Pg 123 Pg 124

Limitations perhaps, but within its proper distance, 1/2 hip is deadly accurate.

The easiest way to get into it is to face the target square (6 foot distance) and hold the pistol in a 2 hand Isoc. position. Slowly bend your elbows until they rest on your ribcage. Release your weak hand and you are now in half hip.

Fire in bursts of 2, 3 and four shots and soon you will be amazed at the accuracy. Then repeat the drills with one foot forward.

Finally, start backing off a step at a time to see how far away from the target you can get with man hitting accuracy.

Close or 1/4 hip - Go to page 47 of STL. The current trend is to rest the gun hand against your ribcage and fire away. The fact that few instructors can agree on exactly where to reference the pistol is not a good sign. It is also very easy to loose track of the muzzle during a struggle (And make no mistake about it - you are not in a gunfight but a fight) and shoot yourself.

Pg 47

To avoid this Applegate favored to strike the BG with the muzzle and then shoot. With a revolver this is no problem, but a semi auto may go out of battery, so be sure to draw it back slightly before firing.

You'll notice how each shot tends to blow the target into a very raggedy and very, very large hole. That is the gasses working for you as an extra bonus. Just ask any Medical Examiner to explain this in greater detail.

Once you have the basics down it's time to practice this with some unarmed strikes. Both the tiger's claw/face smash and axe hands are effective. I like to have my students face the target with the gun holstered. On the whistle I have them execute a left hand face smash while drawing the pistol. Keep your left into in his face, in a real fight it would be clawing, gouging, ripping, etc., and draw your pistol. Thrust the muzzle into the stomach area, pull slightly back and rip off two shots.

It is important to keep your left hand high and the pistol low to avoid shooting your free hand.

Lateral Motion - I really should have included this in part 2, but here goes now.

Quite often the only possible way to safely move is directly into the enemy. But exceptions do exist so let us examine how to move off line.

Applegate cautioned not to give specific methods of moving one's feet, but here is where I break that rule.

Face the target square in a "horse stance". As the pistol is raised do a "In Quartata" (as Styers shows in COLD STEEL). Your left foot comes behind your right foot but DO NOT cross your feet. At all times you should be on balance with your feet shoulder width apart. After the first step keep sidestepping and shooting for a few rounds.

Do it righty and lefty, and then practice it with either foot forward.

If you were being charged by a knife/stick armed man you could combine the first step with a muzzle smash to the BG's mouth before shooting.

Drills - With both half and quarter hip you can repeat all of the drills taught in parts 1&2 (with point shoulder) but instead doing them with the closer range methods.

I should mention now that working on a square range, even one that allows up to 180 degree shooting, has its limitations.

Once the basics are mastered you really have to practice either in a "Kill" house, with FATS machine, Airsoft, SIMS or CO2 pistols. (When I was single I'd attach paper targets to towels throughout my apartment and practice point shooting/room entry with a repeating air pistol. Along with smoking, eating in bed and a few other joys, that is something canned by Mrs. Temkin)
________________________________________

How I Teach Point Shooting - Part 4

One of the my favorite articles in gun magazines is the review of courses given by "name instructors".

Much of what passes for "advanced" training sometimes makes me shake my head in wonder.

For example, should "double taps, hammers, rapid reloading, zeroing the weapon and other fundamental skills really belong in a so called advanced course?

When I teach a long arm point shooting course, I assume the student already is very familiar with his weapon of choice and my teaching style reflects this.

First of all, the following methods are workable with any type of long-arm...rifle/carbine/shotgun...regardless of action.

The only exception would be concerning underarm assault position with fully automatic, very short barreled weapons such as the Uzi, Mp 5 with adjustable stock, etc.

1) Explain how the principles of point shooting with long arms are identical as to those with the handgun. It is assumed that the student is proficient with the weapon, manipulations and aimed fire from all positions (standing, kneeling, prone, etc.)

2) There are 4 methods of aiming a weapon...

a) Classic aimed fire using both front and rear sight.
b) Weapon at shoulder, ignoring the rear sight, but putting the front sight at enemy’s navel area.
c) Weapon at shoulder, eyes focused on enemy's navel, but totally ignoring the sights. (Sometimes called Quick fire)
d) Underarm assault position. (See pages 182 & 183 of KOGK)

Pg 182 Pg 183

All of these techniques have one thing in common and that is that the barrel is always in line with the eyes.

3) Assume the same offensive stance - left foot in front, toes of both feet facing the target with the back heel slightly raised. practice one shot drill, two shot drill and 3-4 shot bursts from both aimed and front sight only sighting techniques. Begin at distance of 20 feet or so, backing up to about 10 yards. Once you have good groups the real training will now begin.

4) Face the target in a square Isosceles stance with the rifle butt in the shoulder. The exact location is not so important, but it should be comfortable. I tend to place it somewhere between the shoulder pocket and my collarbone.

Most shotgun stocks, however, are a bit long and I usually place that stock in more of the traditional shoulder "pocket." No matter what, both elbows should be sharply bent and pulling in slightly.

To do "QuickFire" have the weapon at low ready and focus on the exact spot you wish to hit. With the stock in your shoulder raise the barrel until it is about at chest level, immediately fire off first one, then two, and finally bursts of 3-5 shots.

Since the sights are not being used the rate of fire is very rapid.

The best illustration of this is in the rifle section of ALL IN FIGHTING, page 125, figures 156 and 157.

5) Repeat this drill while moving towards the target. Then fire a few shots moving in, followed by shooting while retreating.

6) Multiple targets. Same Quickfire position, same concept as with the pistol. Key is to move into each target while engaging. Avoid swinging with just the hips from a stationary position.

Lastly we come to the underarm assault position, which does not get the attention it deserves.

Thankfully it is well illustrated in KOGK (see the chapter of firing shoulder weapons) and you will be all set.

Practice it with the same drills that we used for close pistol work. Also practice it while carrying the weapon at port arms by slapping the stock under the armpit and immediately shooting upon impact.

I am tempted to dispel many of the myths about point shooting, usually written by the anti point shooters.

I am, however, tired of doing so. Besides, the current trend of men like Andy Stanford, Mas Ayoob and others is to redefine the term so as to either make it appear that:

A) What Applegate & Fairbairn taught was actually a type of aimed fire.
B) We've actually meant the same thing all these decades. It was merely a confusion of terms.

One objection that I would like to deal with is that, "It either takes years and years of training to make PS work, or an extreme amount of natural talent." (usually when referring to Bill Jordan) Or that it is extremely inaccurate.

The following is a short synopsis of what I recently taught to 6 police/military instructors in Sweden.

Course time was about 3 and one half hours, including short breaks. We went through about 1200 rounds of ammo.

We did not move on to a new drill until all students had fist size groups. Distance was from 0-6 meters.

1) Brief history of FSA
2) Describe term instinctive and how it relates to shooting.
3) Basic drill from square stance. Single-bursts of two-bursts of 4-5 shots.
4) Repeat same drills with one foot forward.
5) Repeat drills while moving in.
6) Move in for 4-6 shots, then back up for 4-6 shots.
7) Zipper drill.
8) Two chest, two head drill.
9) Lateral movement drill, right and left.
10) Principles of angle/pivot shots. Work up to marching drill.
11) Putting it all together drill. Rapidly fire while moving forward, back, right, forward, back, and left. Should fire off 15 rounds in a bout 8-10 seconds while in constant motion.
12) Explain how distance dictates technique. Show 3/4 hip position. Repeat all drills from this position.
13) Half hip.
14) Multiple target drill.
15) Show problems with retention shooting and why the gun must be canted to the side. Then explain why Applegate preferred to strike with the muzzle.
16) Repeat drill with face smash. explain why we rip and claw.
17) Do drill, then incorporate movement...back, lateral, etc.
18) Finish with stalking drill. Student slowly moves in and out various targets until, at the sound of the whistle, he engages the closest target. (Called a "S" drill by the London Swat Officers).

I have used this same format to teach civilians, some of whom have never even touched a pistol before, with excellent results.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
yeah, i practice point shooting fairly often, its why i emphasis guns that point well for me because being able to use a combination of hand-eye coordination and muscle memory to put bullets on targets (within reasonable distances) is a good thing

the ability to more naturally point at a target is why i prefer CZs and makarovs over glocks or M&Ps

something else i can do because im right handed, right eye dominate is bring the gun up with both eyes open so my dominate eye sees a "ghost" of the gun that i can see through and use the back of the slide itself to get better accuracy without using sights
I havent found that switching guns changes things much. As long as theres some familiarity with the gun anyway.

I shoot this way with pretty much everything I shoot too, even switching between guns of different types in the same outing, and I dont have any trouble making good hits with them. Then again, Ive also shot them all a good bit, so I am familiar with them too.

Unless the gun is radically different for its type (which is pretty rare), I dont think youre going to see much of a difference, unless youre worrying about the gun, instead of just shooting the target.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:25 AM
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Outpost, thanks. You cant get much more in-depth than that.

Shoot to Live and Kill or get Killed, should be primers that everyone should have on hand too.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:53 AM
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Invest in your training now while it is both legal and replacement ammo/components are still available. Air guns can be useful for many reasons, but nothing beats shooting the real thing in the real firearms that you are betting your life on.
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:25 PM
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Kinesthetic shooting
Valuable tool, especially for Mozambique
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Old 06-25-2019, 07:52 PM
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I have two of the same model glocks. When I needed to replace the sights on one of them I pulled off the rear (which was damaged) in preparation for ordering a new one...but then had the thought of how much of a difference would it be to shoot without any sights at all vs. with them (at "regular pistol range"), so I removed the front as well and took both to the range.

At an indoor range the no sight gun would still hit the target at all ranges, would even have a sort of grouping, however it was larger than the sighted gun. I shot a few different ways, some not "aiming" at all and other sort of imagining there were sights and "using them" (which was the more accurate method).

I did this shooting a bit over a few months if I remember right before getting some new style sights to try, so I have not done it in a while. However it reinforced the idea I have pretty much always held of target focused shooting, especially at "close distance" certainly within 7 yards, but beyond as well.

I naturally had a difference in accuracy, vs with sights...but it was surprising at times with how little the difference was. Probably the best way to describe it all was it was like shooting a recurve/long bow (without sights).
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:07 PM
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I always shoot a couple of mags withotut the sights every time Im out. Its just a part of my routine. Sometimes the whole session is that way too, but I usually mix it up.

One day, towards the end, when I was shooting the last couple of mags with no sights, I brought it up to actually aim towards the end of the last mag, and noticed the front sight was gone. Which ****ed me off, as it was a night sight, and Id just installed them recently, and I must not have put enough LocTite on it.

Funny thing is, I never missed the sight not being there while I was shooting. I just kept reholstering, drawing and shooting. It wasnt until I went to actually look for it, did I realize it was gone.

Best part of the whole day was, I figured that sight was gone, and Id have to buy another, until it hit me while cleaning it later, that the front sight was "glowing", and I had a cheapie Gen 1 NV monocular. Went back over to the range after dark, and found the front sight in just a couple of minutes! It stood right out!

Made my day!
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:44 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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I always shoot a couple of mags withotut the sights every time Im out. Its just a part of my routine. Sometimes the whole session is that way too, but I usually mix it up.

One day, towards the end, when I was shooting the last couple of mags with no sights, I brought it up to actually aim towards the end of the last mag, and noticed the front sight was gone. Which ****ed me off, as it was a night sight, and Id just installed them recently, and I must not have put enough LocTite on it.

Funny thing is, I never missed the sight not being there while I was shooting. I just kept reholstering, drawing and shooting. It wasnt until I went to actually look for it, did I realize it was gone.

Best part of the whole day was, I figured that sight was gone, and Id have to buy another, until it hit me while cleaning it later, that the front sight was "glowing", and I had a cheapie Gen 1 NV monocular. Went back over to the range after dark, and found the front sight in just a couple of minutes! It stood right out!

Made my day!
I have a funny story like that.

In the early part of my time in infantry, we turned up at a night time location and started to dig our shell scrapes/graves.

About half way through, I realize that my wrist watch is missing (the band had broken). The next morning I am sitting in my pit cleaning my rifle and I hear this muffled beeping - my watch and the 6.00AM alarm going off inside the spoil pile from my pit. I knew I only had ten seconds to find it - so I furiously work with the etool and get to it just as it stops beeping.

After a good wash and new band, it was as good as new.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:09 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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shooting without sights is nothing.. shooting without sight, that'd impress me
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:29 PM
Dusty Bones Dusty Bones is offline
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So Ill take that as "I dont/cant, so everyone else couldnt possibly do it either"? OK then, gotcha.

I also see a lack of comprehension and lack of understanding has afflicted you yet again, and reading isnt the only thing thats the problem, now its videos too.
I'm waiting for your next video on the best newest idiot with a camera and strong jaw muscle best shooting technique that isn't even a shooting technique video an your supporting responses on how you've mastered it post. You just found a video and you're showing everyone now your newest revelation.

You'll have a video proving wrapping the thumb of the support hand under the slide as the best pistol grip ever, just watch the video !mao.

I've read you say it in the past. Practice like you play. I wouldn't be shocked in the least if the piece on you right now is sightless and you have the video ready to go to show people how it is how a pistol is utilized, with no sights. Practice like you play right.

I'm expecting a video of 300 yard shooting with a rifle with no scope that has no factory iron sights too. I bet there is a vid on that too. You're the man to find it. I know you will.
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:18 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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I'm waiting for your next video on the best newest idiot with a camera and strong jaw muscle best shooting technique that isn't even a shooting technique video an your supporting responses on how you've mastered it post. You just found a video and you're showing everyone now your newest revelation.

You'll have a video proving wrapping the thumb of the support hand under the slide as the best pistol grip ever, just watch the video !mao.

I've read you say it in the past. Practice like you play. I wouldn't be shocked in the least if the piece on you right now is sightless and you have the video ready to go to show people how it is how a pistol is utilized, with no sights. Practice like you play right.

I'm expecting a video of 300 yard shooting with a rifle with no scope that has no factory iron sights too. I bet there is a vid on that too. You're the man to find it. I know you will.
It was a video to prove a technique. Nobody's saying that you should take the sights off your gun. They just happened to be off on his as he was changing them; or one of them, and took the other off just for demonstration.

Kind of like putting your hand through a pile of bricks. A karateka knows he will never rumble with a wall; but it sure is a cool way of showing power and conditioning.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:05 AM
cbl51 cbl51 is offline
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Most shootings I saw in D.C. while growing were at a few feet, not yards. Almost contact range. Almost all assaults/robberies take place at bad breath distance. Range shooting at targets is fun, but not real practice for the street and self defense.

Car jackings are range from drivers seat to criminal just out side of window leaning in. Connivence store robbery is the width of counter, maybe two feet. Mugging is right there in your face. Sometimes you need to shove the attacker off or back to draw gun and shoot.

Most people I see at the range are not shooting anything like what a real street shooting is going to be like. Int ain't gonna be like a Hollywood shootout. When our friend Al was killed in a mugging, it was a couple of feet. When my friend Eli was shot in the stomach and survived, it was a couple feet. When I had my own shoot, it was arms length and the guy was trying to bash my head in with a crowbar. Maybe three feet from the muzzle to his stomach. At 1am in the moringin an alley, there wasn't much light to see any sights, let alone the time to use them.

In 99% of real world shootings, you don't need sights on the gun. All those night sights, and fancy after market sights are just like fishing lures; designed to get the money out of your pocket and into theirs. Same with all those guns that are too big to fit in a pocket. Sucker bait sales items.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:52 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
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Most shootings I saw in D.C. while growing were at a few feet, not yards. Almost contact range. Almost all assaults/robberies take place at bad breath distance. Range shooting at targets is fun, but not real practice for the street and self defense. incorrect.... It's all in how you use them and the type of range.

Car jackings are range from drivers seat to criminal just out side of window leaning in. Connivence store robbery is the width of counter, maybe two feet. Mugging is right there in your face. Sometimes you need to shove the attacker off or back to draw gun and shoot. and they still miss.... Because they don't train.

Most people I see at the range are not shooting anything like what a real street shooting is going to be like.yep Int ain't gonna be like a Hollywood shootout. yepWhen our friend Al was killed in a mugging, it was a couple of feet. When my friend Eli was shot in the stomach and survived, it was a couple feet. When I had my own shoot, it was arms length and the guy was trying to bash my head in with a crowbar. Maybe three feet from the muzzle to his stomach. At 1am in the moringin an alley, there wasn't much light to see any sights, let alone the time to use them.
that's why you train and use NS.


In 99% of real world shootings, you don't need sights on the gun.
no, people who don't train look past the Sights, those who do... DO.
That's why we hit more than ghetto thugs.


All those night sights, and fancy after market sights are just like fishing lures; designed to get the money out of your pocket and into theirs. Same with all those guns that are too big to fit in a pocket. Sucker bait sales items.
Yea, that so the people who do it for a living use them!

I've been in quite a few shootins, haji falls down much more when you use the sights!

The glock 23 on my hip is a "sucker bait sale item" and a Jennings . 22 is a good defensive pistol!
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:24 AM
cbl51 cbl51 is offline
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Yea, that so the people who do it for a living use them!

I've been in quite a few shootins, haji falls down much more when you use the sights!

The glock 23 on my hip is a "sucker bait sale item" and a Jennings . 22 is a good defensive pistol!
Spare me the macho military jargon and haji BS. I'm not a soldier, I'm not a cop, and I'm not the caped crusader out to bring justice to Gotham. I'm just some blue collar retired machine shop guy going about his life and just interested in self defense.

That Glock on your hip is going to do you no good at all, if you can't get to it because theres already a gun in your face. In my life as a gang member in D.C. in my younger days, you need to have a gun you can slip your hand into the pocket and have it right in your hand ready to go if things look hincky. That mugger already has his gun in hand in his hoodie pocket, so you're comping from behind.

For the regular guy just going about his life, piking up a pizza for the wife and kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or walking across the parking lot of the local mall, a small gun like a S&W 642 or Ruger LCP is way better. It's going to be bad breath range and fast and close. Shoot all the "haji" you want, but that has no real importance in life in urban/suburban America.

Joe Averige isn't going around to arrest anyone, and he certainly isn't doing house to house searching for your "haji." I enlisted in the army to get out of the old neighborhood and served in Vietnam in the 39th Combat Engineers, and I have seen a bit of combat. That has absolutely nothing to do with self defense on the street in suburban America. Apples and oranges. So loose the military posturing and get real.

As for the people that do it for a living, how many cops get killed by some .380 Davis wielding punk?
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:22 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
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Spare me the macho military jargon and haji BS. I have no doubt you want to be "spaired" knowledge based on training and experience...

I'm not a soldier, I'm not a cop, and I'm not the caped crusader out to bring justice to Gotham. I'm just some blue collar retired machine shop guy going about his life and just interested in self defense.

That Glock on your hip is going to do you no good at all, if you can't get to it because theres already a gun in your face. while That's not true, it IS far better to practice situational awareness...

In my life as a gang member in D.C. in my younger days, you need to have a gun you can slip your hand into the pocket and have it right in your hand ready to go if things look hincky. I like that TOO.

There why there's a 27 in my pocket.

That mugger already has his gun in hand in his hoodie pocket, so you're comping from behind.

while back I was "approached" at a gas station. I did the "command voice" awareness etc and because I caught the threat at distance it deescelated...

For the regular guy just going about his life, piking up a pizza for the wife and kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or walking across the parking lot of the local mall, a small gun like a S&W 642 or Ruger LCP is way better. situation dictates It's going to be bad breath range often, not alwaysand fast and close. same Shoot all the "haji" you want, but that has no real importance in life in urban/suburban America. incorrect.

Go talk to someone like Tom Givens about his students survival and all the numbers he's crunched. You might actually learn something (I doubt it, but because of you, not the knowledge.) "Larger than pocket" pistols work quite well when coupled with training and awareness of your environment.


Joe Averige isn't going around to arrest anyone, no where did I say anything about arrest. and he certainly isn't doing house to house searching for your "haji." has nothing to do with the situation at hand I enlisted in the army to get out of the old neighborhood and served in Vietnam in the 39th Combat Engineers, and I have seen a bit of combat. That has absolutely nothing to do with self defense on the street in suburban America. Apples and oranges. someone trying to kill you is someone trying to kill you I've had to "display" but fortunately did not have to fire here in the US. During a hurricane I held at gunpoint and disarmed a couple bangers (turned them over to the police.)
(Dover need to keep listinf ?)

I have more of a clue than being a thug with training who remembers a couple buddies getting "popped" 50 years ago.
So loose the military posturing and get real. VERY real. My military training stood me in good stead. (You DO need to learn how to function without a team, and I never said "military training" was a place to stop, your just trying to disparage experence. (While claiming same)

As for the people that do it for a living, how many cops get killed by some .380 Davis wielding punk?
Buddy of mine worked the La state police crime lab for 20+ years. Said many of those guns would come into the lab jammed. (Banger shot)

As to cops: not that many, more are killed with their own guns. Check the stats and learn a little.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:34 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is online now
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My second shooting started at 3 yds, ended at 4 yds. Bad guy missed completely with three rounds, out of a stolen Sig P226. I hit with five. The first two hit him peripherally (shoulder, and trap), and were unsighted. He continued to try to stay in the fight. My last three, I went to sights (rough sight picture - bumpy things on top of the gun lined up and superimposed on him), and put two into his armpit, and one into his ear. Coroner said the first two were easily survivable, the last three were all instantly fatal. Up until that point, I had done quite a bit of work with "instinctive" shooting.

Opposite-direction lateral movement, turning, and crouching make a difference.

Sample size of one, but several of my coworkers have had similar experiences. Dinkheller's shooting is about as much proof as you should need that it is far from "instinctive."

FACT: If your sights are lined up on the target the instant the shot breaks, you can't miss, providing the gun is zeroed. The bullet will always go where the gun is aimed. There are a lot more variables once you start relying on body mechanics.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:12 PM
Snyper708 Snyper708 is offline
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The folks that made a living with guns used to teach point shooting, even from the hip, just watch some old FBI training films. Obviously, it works well enough to get hits on target. Probably harder if you are moving...but then, thatís what training is for.
Drawing and shooting from the hip is one of the first things I was taught.

That was back when most people carried revolvers and most of the semi autos one saw were Colt 1911's.

It's quite easy to keep them in the "kill zone" with just a little practice.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:37 PM
arleigh arleigh is offline
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When I was in SAR with the sheriffs department the sheriffs captain taught me to shoot from the hip.
If you are checking the aggression of a live target shooting at you there is no time to take a stance .and trying to line up on a person is not like lining up on a bear or deer whom are not shooting at you .
Right now this time of day (6:PM) my eyes are bleary and tired ,trying to line up sights precisely is not going to happen.
I have chosen to practice using air guns actually CO2 operated arms . some are pellet and some are BB with actions the same as fire arms even functioning slide actions and revolving cylinders and working hammers .
Some of these are not as accurate as one might hope but it pushes the work toward better accuracy too. some of these guns are very accurate too so it depends on the gun and the luck of the draw some times .
Pyramid air has reviews on air guns available I have contributions as well .
The price of the gun does reflect accuracy or the lack of problems. sometime s the reverse is actually true.
Point is air guns are far cheaper to shoot and accidents don't translate as they would with regular fire arms.
Careful though air guns can become an addiction .
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:38 PM
randolphrowzeebragg randolphrowzeebragg is offline
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The idea is to get emotion out of whatever you're doing and just let your lizard brain take over. Your conscious brain is trying to run calculations that your unconscious brain has already completed because the conscious brain has to multitask. Some researchers believe that idiot savants function using the same process involuntarily.
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Old 06-27-2019, 06:30 AM
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Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is online now
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Many times on many forums I have been excoriated for suggesting that using your sights especially in a high stress situation isnít probably going to happen.

When you are defending yourself against a guy running at you with a knife you arenít lining up sights, your pointing and pulling the trigger.

This is also why I laugh when people call cops poor shots because they only hit the coked up badguy four times out of sixteen.

When I shot USPSA I rarely ďsightedĒ down the pistol, it was more instinctive shooting.
Iím sure those with hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars of classes under their belt will disagree but I simply donít care.
Even guys using dot sights in competition are really only using them to guide them, they arenít taking the time to actually ďaimĒ as most people do while shooting for a group on paper.

Just my opinion of course and Iím sure itís wrong.
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