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Old 06-24-2019, 07:50 PM
AK103K AK103K is offline
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Default Shooting with no sights.



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Just curious how many do this in their regular routine. I do, and think its an important part of your skill set, but Ive heard some derogatory comments when Ive brought it up in the past too.

Always figured the answer there was "no". Woof woof, negative waves, baby!

Just got this video by Gabe Suarez in an email, which led me to bring it up.



He touches on shooting without using your sights and shows just how easy is actually is. And it is pretty easy, if you let it be.


And before the "Gabe Hate" begins, this isnt about Gabe, its about learning what I think is an important part of our skill set.
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:21 PM
ajole ajole is offline
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The folks that made a living with guns used to teach point shooting, even from the hip, just watch some old FBI training films. Obviously, it works well enough to get hits on target. Probably harder if you are moving...but then, thatís what training is for.

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Old 06-24-2019, 08:46 PM
AK103K AK103K is offline
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The folks that made a living with guns used to teach point shooting, even from the hip, just watch some old FBI training films. Obviously, it works well enough to get hits on target. Probably harder if you are moving...but then, thatís what training is for.
Its not hard while your moving either.

And its not like youre not aiming, you are, just not using the same indexes (the sights). Your brain has what it needs (its seen more than the sights during all those bazillion presentations you did in practice), you just have to let it do what it needs to do, to get it done.

I think its foolish to think that because something is no longer currently in fashion, that its necessarily obsolete. Theres no doubt that some things have advanced, and might work better, but a lot of the older thinking is still very valid.

I think those who have progressed through the various evolutions of things, as they have come and gone, have a better understanding here.

An open mind always helps too.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:12 PM
Snyper708 Snyper708 is offline
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
The folks that made a living with guns used to teach point shooting, even from the hip, just watch some old FBI training films. Obviously, it works well enough to get hits on target. Probably harder if you are moving...but then, thatís what training is for.
Drawing and shooting from the hip is one of the first things I was taught.

That was back when most people carried revolvers and most of the semi autos one saw were Colt 1911's.

It's quite easy to keep them in the "kill zone" with just a little practice.
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:41 PM
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I don't do fast draw but I do practice shooting from the hip with rifle, shotgun and pistols. Rolling cans down the trail sort of training. Short barreled Mag pistols are no fun. Also practice pulling the slung rifle off the shoulder and doing in close targets.

Back in the day I would shoot bottles or cans out of the air with a pistol thrown by me or someone else. I didn't use the sights, no time to actually line them up. Doubtful I could still do it, harder now to find a place to practice. Shooting running bunnies or picket pens from a moving car was excellent practice, especially when driving too.
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:49 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Not regularly. He might not be using sights, but I wonder if he is getting a good "slide picture".

For a speedy "no sight" drill, I just thrust it out in front of me; look right over the top at my intended target, both eyes open, and rip em' off fast.

More instinctive and representative of very poor viewing conditions. As kids, found with my friends, that a person can do pretty well by concentrating on the sound.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:25 PM
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Handgun on a human sized target out to @15-20 feet is always done point shooting, ala Fairbairn & Sykes. Majority of handgun rounds shot this way.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:53 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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The term I have heard most for this type of shooting is "Instinctive".

That involves shooting the gun without using the sights and with the gun typically held lower than the centre axis of your vision. It is mainly applied where it will be faster and still accurate enough for closer range. It also provides the advantage of keeping a less restricted view of the target (and fall of shot). We trained doing this quite a bit in the military.

But that does not look to be what he is doing in the video. He seems to be looking along the top of the slide and using that as an improvised sighting system. That would probably not be appreciably faster than using the sights conventionally (at least for an experienced shooter).

Whenever I am looking at a target (or targets) that I am about to engage, that are less than 20 or so yards away (or in low light or where speeds is really critical), I assess whether I should shoot them with the sights or instinctively.

As an aside about the video, I really don't like people telling me that some guy 50 yards away is not a threat. They very much can be......
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Old 06-25-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post
The term I have heard most for this type of shooting is "Instinctive".

That involves shooting the gun without using the sights and with the gun typically held lower than the centre axis of your vision. It is mainly applied where it will be faster and still accurate enough for closer range. It also provides the advantage of keeping a less restricted view of the target (and fall of shot). We trained doing this quite a bit in the military.

But that does not look to be what he is doing in the video. He seems to be looking along the top of the slide and using that as an improvised sighting system. That would probably not be appreciably faster than using the sights conventionally (at least for an experienced shooter).

Whenever I am looking at a target (or targets) that I am about to engage, that are less than 20 or so yards away (or in low light or where speeds is really critical), I assess whether I should shoot them with the sights or instinctively.

As an aside about the video, I really don't like people telling me that some guy 50 yards away is not a threat. They very much can be......
Its been called a number of things over the years as some have tried to reinvent it.

There is no right or wrong way to do it either, if, whatever you do, gives good results. But, you do need to put in the work to know what does.

And, as Nomad noted too, you usually do a lot better if you have the sighted shooting basics down, and practice them regularly.

For me, presenting the gun as you normally do, but shooting just "over" it, normally gives the best results. This works with anything too, handgun or long gun.

Your focus is on where on the target you want the rounds to go, and not the sights. But if you stop and shift your focus, youll see the sights are still there in your peripheral vision, and your brain sees them as well.

Once you start to go farther away from a full to near full presentation, your not usually going to see the tighter groups you normally see there, but you still see good hits, right in the area you were focused on.

If you start working on things from full presentation and work your way "down", I think youll find that things are, or come easier than trying to start from a low retention position, and working your way up, again, as Nomad pointed out.

I normally practice this from point blank, out to about 10 yards or so, and do so for a couple of mags, every time I shoot. I also find that I use it pretty much exclusively when shooting while I move. And most of that is done shooting over the gun, and often one-handed, depending on which way I go.


I think this is just another integral part of the whole when it comes to your shooting skills, and something once you have it down, youll never lose it, nor will you have to think about using it, when you need it.

One other thing it does too is, its a great confidence builder, and I think even more so than knowing I can shoot tight little groups when I take my time, and focus on my sights. I know I can still make good hits without them.

Lots to fool around with here, and pick up on and learn, and its well worth the effort, and its really not effort, its also fun as hell too!
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:53 PM
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If you practice using your sights you will be more likely to hit while not using them than the reverse.
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:50 AM
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There was one major criteria I used when I selected my two different handguns (one pocket sized, one full frame), that I could:

Look at the target, close my eyes, draw the gun, shoot and hit the target every time. I tried MANY different one's to fine these two.

Yes, I do not expect to be shooting with my eyes closed, but I know it can't hurt to have one that 'fits' my instinct of where I think it should hit.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:11 AM
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I never use sights for any target less than 15 feet. I just bring it up and shoot. The key is familiarity with your firearm, and practice.


The only exception, is a rifle. I always "aim" with a rifle, even at short range...
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:38 AM
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The only exception, is a rifle. I always "aim" with a rifle, even at short range...
I practice it with my rifles as well. Its really no different than with a handgun as to why either. There are times its quicker and works better than sights.

As an example, with rifles with iron sights, especially aperture type sights, shooting in low light can be a challenge, especially when trying to do so quickly. I practice shooting over the gun, with a cheek weld quite a bit, and even at 25 yards, you still get good hits.

I also practice from a low, "armpit" ready and quickly presenting the gun and shooting from nipple height.

One other thing I do with guns that dont have a red dot, is put a couple of bright nail polish "dots" on the ears of the front sight. Makes for a good, low light aiming reference when shooting over the gun in low light, or even bright light for that matter.



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Let go Luke, use the force.
Absolutely!
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:09 AM
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One other thing I do with guns that dont have a red dot, is put a couple of bright nail polish "dots" on the ears of the front sight. Makes for a good, low light aiming reference when shooting over the gun in low light, or even bright light for that matter.
I really like the nail polish idea!
I'm gonna have to raid my wife's nail polish drawer LOL


(I don't know if that color would go with my shoes, though) J/K!
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:29 AM
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Let go Luke, use the force.
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:04 AM
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"Instinct" shooting is what I have always called it...
and, yes, I DO practice it as a normal part of my range time...
And yes, the more time you put in using your sights, the easier it is to do and be consistent...

I've had guys that I shot with ask me how I did that, and I just told them that I focus on the target, point the pistol and let my brain do the rest... just let go...
It's just like pointing your finger offhand at something...

But, with me, if I overthink it, I start seeing my groups widen out...
I have to tell myself, "Just let go!" LOL
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:36 AM
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Removing sights from a pistol to shoot is like dismissing the other fundamentals of shooting. Next up we will see videos on stanceless shooting. Wrong grip shooting. No trigger control shooting. May as well if you’re going to shoot with no sights.
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:56 AM
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Removing sights from a pistol to shoot is like dismissing the other fundamentals of shooting. Next up we will see videos on stanceless shooting. Wrong grip shooting. No trigger control shooting. May as well if youíre going to shoot with no sights.
No. Shooting "without sights" causes you to hone those other skills.

One would think that someone with millions of years of experience would know that.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:04 AM
AK103K AK103K is offline
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Removing sights from a pistol to shoot is like dismissing the other fundamentals of shooting. Next up we will see videos on stanceless shooting. Wrong grip shooting. No trigger control shooting. May as well if youíre going to shoot with no sights.
So Ill take that as "I dont/cant, so everyone else couldnt possibly do it either"? OK then, gotcha.

I also see a lack of comprehension and lack of understanding has afflicted you yet again, and reading isnt the only thing thats the problem, now its videos too.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:29 PM
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So Ill take that as "I dont/cant, so everyone else couldnt possibly do it either"? OK then, gotcha.

I also see a lack of comprehension and lack of understanding has afflicted you yet again, and reading isnt the only thing thats the problem, now its videos too.
I'm waiting for your next video on the best newest idiot with a camera and strong jaw muscle best shooting technique that isn't even a shooting technique video an your supporting responses on how you've mastered it post. You just found a video and you're showing everyone now your newest revelation.

You'll have a video proving wrapping the thumb of the support hand under the slide as the best pistol grip ever, just watch the video !mao.

I've read you say it in the past. Practice like you play. I wouldn't be shocked in the least if the piece on you right now is sightless and you have the video ready to go to show people how it is how a pistol is utilized, with no sights. Practice like you play right.

I'm expecting a video of 300 yard shooting with a rifle with no scope that has no factory iron sights too. I bet there is a vid on that too. You're the man to find it. I know you will.
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