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Old 09-09-2019, 01:08 AM
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Default Glovebox PDW "Pistol"



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Was looking through some concepts I had for my glock and ran across a new release on the Flux website. Doesnt look like its hit the market yet, but they've developed a holsterable drop in receiver for the SIG M17, along with a glock variant.

*Optics mount on the receiver
*Flashlights can mount on the receiver
*you can still use irons
*Theres a pistol and NFA variant, with the only difference being the length of pull

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...4TeRoXZWUuYbIY
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:55 AM
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I'm a huge fan of the pistol brace for PDW.



I still prefer the detachable ENDO style, because I can keep the Glock in a CCW-able form so I don't have to "forfeit" one to PDW duty and use all my regular holsters. If I have time to, it takes about 6-8 seconds for me to get the brace out and install it.

People might think it's silly, but the moment you use one and realize recoil is mitigated 70%, the effective range almost doubles, and you've only added a pound or so? It made me question the existence of my 9mm AR pistol which weighs as much as two, if not three of these.

One thing though about the FLUX brace. The ENDO is quite long compared to it, and not gonna lie - that slide would be a little too close to my face for comfort. Safety glasses are a requirement at all times, and you'll know real fast if you put too much oil on your slide.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:09 AM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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Be careful of BATF laws about adding anything to a pistol and/or local and state laws. Some places just do NOT have a sense of humor about modifying pistols into personal defense weapons. In any Peoples' Republic, like the one called Chicago, any kind of tampering with a rifle, pistol or other firearm can land you in prison.

However, one thing to consider, is that there are PDWs out there that are already legal to own and buy. One of the old time favorites was the .30 caliber Enforcer (cut down M-1 carbine pistol) that came out right after WW2. Some of these Enforcer pistols had 2 pistol grips on them and some only had 1 pistol grip at the rear. Guys would attach a cord, rope or strap to the Enforcer, extend it away from their bodies to get the right sight picture and use that little jewel like a carbine to good effect. Basically what you had was a short carbine like firearm that was fast to sweep around with and one that had really good minute-of-man accuracy for close range engagements.

Another pistol-stock combination was the Buntline Special reproductions that were popular. In the day, a couple of the Buntlines came with stocks that were detachable. The Army Buntlines came with a wooden stock and there was a version that came with a wire type of stock as well. With the long barrels of the Buntline pistols and the stock attachments, guys were almost shooting as far as some saddle carbines could hit.

Actually, I like your idea of using a stock on a good pistol but where I live, I'm a little leery about trying such an application on one of my pistols. I once had a local prosecutor tell me that it was his "considered legal opinion" that just about any modification to a pistol is wrong either legally or civilly. So I look at pistol modifications in a very cautious manner just to be safe. Of course, antique pistols like the Enforcers and Buntlines aren't subject to many modern day laws which is why I bring them up. The older guns and their modern reproductions are legally excluded in many areas.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumWill View Post
People might think it's silly, but the moment you use one and realize recoil is mitigated 70%, the effective range almost doubles, and you've only added a pound or so? It made me question the existence of my 9mm AR pistol which weighs as much as two, if not three of these.
Thats where these things shine, I think. Submachine guns and pdws really only seem like they have value if there's substantial weight or size differences as opposed to a rifle. The bigger and bulkier they get, the more sense it would make to just switch to a rifle such as a 300 BLK SBR.

Probably comes down to philosophy of use though. I look at these as mainly being useful for keeping in a vehicle as a bailout weapon, or in a discreet bag somewhere for active shooter defense and a get home gun.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:25 PM
animalspooker animalspooker is offline
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The Roni is not a bad option either. Not as fancy as FLUX, but probably not as expensive either.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:19 PM
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I've had the Flux brace with my G17 for a little while now and a few trips to the range. Other than the price, it's awesome and very much meets a functional PDW-niche. Kudos to Flux Defense for their innovation even if it's a niche product.

Yes, it's a niche design but fills a decent gap between CCW and carbine in some circumstances (your 'glove box PDW" is quite apropos). My plan is to eventually put the Flux brace on a G34 with RDS. Even with iron sights, I was far more accurate and faster follow up shots at targets out to 50 meters than I could ever be shooting a handgun off-hand in a more conventional shooting manner. While the brace is taking advantage of designed purpose and "opinions", I think some of these are valuable enough to SBR if you have or see a need for such a PDW of this size.















I've seen the "chassis" for Glock models and it's not nearly as svelte as the modular frame for Sig's M17/P320. If I had the spare change for an M17 and the Flux chassis and optic, I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up. Of course, I have an unabashed love-affair with the historical examples of "machine pistols" and PDW-styled firearms

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Old 09-10-2019, 08:40 AM
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Heh! Great picture ROCK - I like how the Flux makes your other PDWs look practically full-size
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:22 AM
America's Patriot America's Patriot is offline
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So, you're going to exit your vehicle to shoot someone and make yourself a bigger target (not to mention a lot of liability)? How about be aware of your surroundings and drive away. Also, if you have to shoot from within your vehicle, you're screwed with that stock.

My opinion, keep a pistol inside the car. If you want a long gun, get a long gun. There is no rule saying you can't have both.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:59 PM
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Its all about circumstances. Theres circumstances where a gun I can very quickly deploy for hits up to 100 meters away and can also be concealed in a glove box could prove useful. Especially since it can be fired with the brace collapsed, addressing your other point.

One size fits all guns have their purpose, but this is definitely not intended as a jack of all trades. Instead it's optimized for very specific roles.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:50 PM
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I am not a fan of gimmick guns.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:25 AM
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Its all about circumstances. Theres circumstances where a gun I can very quickly deploy for hits up to 100 meters away and can also be concealed in a glove box could prove useful.
Isn’t that like....every decent pistol out there?

9 mm drops about a foot at 100, 40 slightly less. .45 ACP is closer to 18 inches. Hold over, like aim at the head for body shots, squeeze...hits at 100.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:54 AM
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So, you're going to exit your vehicle to shoot someone and make yourself a bigger target (not to mention a lot of liability)? How about be aware of your surroundings and drive away. Also, if you have to shoot from within your vehicle, you're screwed with that stock.

My opinion, keep a pistol inside the car. If you want a long gun, get a long gun. There is no rule saying you can't have both.
My caveat was as a niche, but you're completely wrong about shooting it from a vehicle. Sure, at point blank range, it's not different than a handgun, but if that distance stretches the ability to give that pistol a more stable sighting platform makes a significant difference. I shot from the truck window at 25 yards (parked of course, not a "driving range"), and I was far more accurate with the flux on the Glock17 than without (shooting both one-handed). And with the brace it's still far more compact and maneuverable than even a rifle caliber pistol with brace. You can talk hypotheticals, I just compare with scenario-based training exercises and try to developed an informed opinion. I have no issue if this doesn't interest you and I don't disagree a pistol and separate rifle are still viable options, but don't assume something is useless or ineffective if you haven't done anything more than share a hypothetical opinion.

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Isn’t that like....every decent pistol out there?

9 mm drops about a foot at 100, 40 slightly less. .45 ACP is closer to 18 inches. Hold over, like aim at the head for body shots, squeeze...hits at 100.
Not even close. Unless you're a competitive shooter or regularly shoot a handgun out to 100 meters, a braced handgun (especially with RDS) will exponentially increase hit probabilities out to 100 meters over a non-braced handgun. Sure, call it a limitation of skill, but I don't train for CCW engagements beyond 25 meters as I simply lack the hit probability. Sure, I can get behind a comfortable bench and rest and do just fine, but from realistic shooting positions and scenarios, my flux-braced G17 is much more stable for me and I can quickly, accurately, and consistently engage multiple targets out to 50 meters; still not quite consistent enough at 100 meters, but far more than with just a handgun. If you can do so consistently with a handgun and are confident in your hit probability, good for you, move along. I can only speak from my level of experience, skill, training, and practice. A pistol with additional points of contact will simply be more inherently accurate, and once you get out from behind a rest and into more dynamic drills, it makes a bigger difference; at least it does for me. To say you don’t see the need, no problem. To say they’re useless without actually using one is simply ignorant.

Look, I’m an advocate because I both like them and they work for me. None of my “pistol-caliber-braced-pistols” would ever replace my CCW or my rifle; they just add an option for those situations where distances and capacity make my CCW not the best option, and the circumstances makes having a rifle on hand (discreetly) very difficult. The choice for these braced-pistols can simply provide another option of having something smaller, lighter and more compact than a rifle; and yet give you far more accurate range, fast follow-up, much more stable platform in dynamic movements, and likely more capacity than what I would normally CCW.

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Old 09-11-2019, 10:58 AM
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If a quality company made a folding rifle like the Kel Tec Sub 2000, it would offer the best of both worlds. About the same size folded as the pistol brace combo's, but it has a 16" barrel. That length tube combined with the right load really stretches the range and penetration capabilities for a 9mm. Still not a rifle cartridge, but getting closer.

If they made it gas operated they could ditch the heavy bolt and the recoil would be nil.

Well, probably not going to happen......
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Not even close. Unless you're a competitive shooter or regularly shoot a handgun out to 100 meters, a braced handgun (especially with RDS) will exponentially increase hit probabilities out to 100 meters over a non-braced handgun.

ROCK6
That's not what he said.

Increased probability of hits...you are absolutely right.

But his criteria was "...hits UP TO 100 meters away...".

People can absolutely "put hits" on a people sized target at 100 meters with an unbraced handgun from a standing unsupported position. Not 100%, but better than 50%, in my experience. Sitting in a car, braced on the door, even better.

So...easily deployed, fits in the glovebox, capable of hits at 100?

Every decent pistol out there.

I never said "useless". My point was, I'm not convinced his criteria require the unit he is asking about.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:28 PM
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If a quality company made a folding rifle like the Kel Tec Sub 2000, it would offer the best of both worlds. About the same size folded as the pistol brace combo's, but it has a 16" barrel. That length tube combined with the right load really stretches the range and penetration capabilities for a 9mm. Still not a rifle cartridge, but getting closer.

If they made it gas operated they could ditch the heavy bolt and the recoil would be nil.

Well, probably not going to happen......
I don't think the LAW folding mechanism works with the 9mm ARs like CMMG's Banshee, but I think that is a viable route.

One aspect is defining a "Personal Defense Weapon". While in a civil society, our CCW fills that role for the most part, but there is also room for innovation. There has been the HK MP5K, HK MP7, and the FN P90. Having handled the MP7 and seeing how it was employed by the Germans in Afghanistan in the role it was used, it has a lot of potential. I was shocked to see they range it out to 200 meters for their qualification (terminal ballistics aside).

I'm just a big fan of the old Machine Pistols such as the grandfather, the Mauser C96 and the Luger P08 Artillery model to newer variations such VP70M and Beretta 93R. Anding a brace (or SBR stock) add additional points of contact and more stability for longer ranges; that just can't be denied unless you've never experienced it. But is there a role for a civilian PDW and what defines such a role?

Sure, I have a Kel-Tech SUB2000, and the folding aspect does make it compact enough to carry it discreetly, but is a 16" barrel a necessity? With the proliferation of arm-braces and the ability to still Form 1 such firearms for use with conventional stocks, they become a much more compact firearm with increased capacity and a slightly larger platform for improved accuracy at longer ranges along with the stability to rapidly engage multiple targets with a much higher hit probability without sacrificing the size and weight of a rifle caliber pistol or compact carbine.

Now, we have chassis systems like the Micro RONI STAB, the Sig P320 Fire Control Unit chassis, and now even more svelte versions such as Flux Defense braces and some SBR/brace options for firearms such as the B&T TP9 and USW-A1. These pseudo SBRs and even registered SBRs provide additional points of contact that contribute to better accuracy and inherently better hit ratios at longer distances. I just challenge those that question the value of such additions to run drills out to 50 meters with a braced pistol and a standard pistol. Add a MRDS and their value increases exponentially.

I have some compact braced pistols such as the Mirco CZ Scorpion, Sig MPX-K, and the B&T GHM9. I love the size and compactness, and while I you can't over-estimate the ballistics of pistol calibers like 9mm, if they're adequate enough for CCW inside 25 meters, they are still quite adequate out to 50-100 meters. That doesn't even account for such calibers as 5.7mm.

So, I'm not saying such a PDW should ever replace one's handgun/CCW or a rifle-caliber rifle (or pistol), these smaller pistol caliber options still fill a smaller niche. While the Glock and Flux brace actually are "glove box" PDWs, even the more "SMG-sized" versions can be carried in a very discreet bag if necessary; much smaller than what I could put a rifle-caliber pistol in let along a regular carbine. I personally see my CCW to serve as my daily self-defense weapon and these PDWs as the gap filler between 25-100 meters and an option to provide me more firepower to fight my way back to my rifle. I can mow the lawn and work around the house with one of these far easier than a carbine. They aren't meant to replace your CCW or rifle, they're just meant to augment the gap between the two. I also acknowledge that many don't see a need or have a requirement for them, and that's okay. What I will say is that they fill that 25-100 meter gap, along with the ability to discreetly carry, extremely well, the true purpose of the PDW.

ROCK6
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:06 PM
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That's not what he said.

Increased probability of hits...you are absolutely right.

But his criteria was "...hits UP TO 100 meters away...".

People can absolutely "put hits" on a people sized target at 100 meters with an unbraced handgun from a standing unsupported position. Not 100%, but better than 50%, in my experience. Sitting in a car, braced on the door, even better.

So...easily deployed, fits in the glovebox, capable of hits at 100?

Every decent pistol out there.

I never said "useless". My point was, I'm not convinced his criteria require the unit he is asking about.
You're nitpicking.

When I'm talking about engagement distance, I tend to express it by the range at which I'm comfortable with and confident of the hit probability, especially in a dynamic scenario.

With a pistol, that range is typically 25m. I can certainly hit further, and do so regularly, but my lack of confidence in hit probability on non static targets at longer range makes it a very poor choice for a weapon intended to be used out to 100 meters in a dynamic setting.

Similarly, I tend to think of the m4 as a 400 meter weapon. I can and have made hits on a 700m man size target with a pretty stock Army M4, but its stretching the capabilities, and the hit probabilities fall to where its a poor or negligent choice for a weapon you intend to be useful at 700 meters.

If all you have is a hammer, everything may look like a nail. That doesnt make it the best tool for the job though.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
That's not what he said.

Increased probability of hits...you are absolutely right.

But his criteria was "...hits UP TO 100 meters away...".

People can absolutely "put hits" on a people sized target at 100 meters with an unbraced handgun from a standing unsupported position. Not 100%, but better than 50%, in my experience. Sitting in a car, braced on the door, even better.

So...easily deployed, fits in the glovebox, capable of hits at 100?

Every decent pistol out there.

I never said "useless". My point was, I'm not convinced his criteria require the unit he is asking about.
Sorry, that's just untrue. There are some capable shooters, but "UP TO 100" meter hits with a handgun is not an average capability and it's absurd to waste time training to do so with your CCW. I have done far too much training to even consider the probability of hits at that distance. Suppressive fire, is one thing, but hits is another. I'm sure there are a few that are confident in their skills, but I'm unaware of any handgun defensive course that includes 100 meter target engagements, and considering most have a smaller CCW platform, you're not talking a service-size handgun for CCW.

There are more than anecdotal situations, the most recent was a (off duty?) officer shooting a threat at 75 yards, but that is so far from the norm and so little focus for self-defensive shooting that it's hard to take you seriously when you casually assume 100 meter hits are even 50%. My personal experience is that a braced (Flux) Glock 17 will easily outshoot a handheld Glock 17; faster and more accurate hits at longer ranges.

It's one thing to assume it and make statements, it's another to go out and do it and I'm not talking about shooting from a bench. Capability of a handgun is quite different than the capability of the trigger puller and I would say it's a single digit percentage of shooters who can shoot off hand from a cold CCW draw and hit a target at 100 meters; even 50% would be an extreme stretch.

ROCK6
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:52 PM
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Old 12-14-2019, 01:06 AM
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I think it has its place. Everything is a comprise. I think one on a g40 would be a beast of a small pdw.
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:44 AM
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uhm, hitting 100 yards with pistols takes practice.. id imagine most people dont practice this because they ASSUME it's insufficient to do so and adding a stock gives them the confident to practice to do something they could have done without it.. if you dont think you can hit at 100 yards with a pistol, give it a try and practice

i think you're going to be more limited by the inherent inaccuracy of something with a moving barrel and a short sight radius than by not having a stock.. if shooting distance with a handgun is a goal, a revolver may be a better choice
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