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Old 10-23-2010, 05:57 AM
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You do know that only the Mk 16 was canceled right? The Mk 17 in 7.62 is still being pursued and ordered to fill the MBR/DMR requirment in SOCOM right? There's a big PR war going on between FN and SOCOM, we won't know WTF is going on for quite awhile I think...

Of course the M14 is being used because it's the better weapon...better than the M4 and M16 that is. We agree there. Not really better than the Mk.17, G3, FAL, or H&K 417 though.

Like I said, the m14 is being used now because it's the only thing we have already bought and paid for in armories that fills the longer range requirements of the middle east. In case you've missed it, the Germans are bringing back the G3 to fill the same role in Afghanistan.
Caugh, caugh, BS!
Please wake me when you have something factual to tell us
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Old 10-23-2010, 06:05 AM
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Caugh, caugh, BS!
Please wake me when you have something factual to tell us
Please be so kind to point out what was bs so I can address it...
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:33 PM
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Uhhhh, Yeah
There's like maybe three of each in service and for testing only Nice try though.... The SCAR was canceled and will not be bought by the US military and the H&K is still under review... Good luck And don't hold your breath
The M14 is being used in the thousands over there right now, Why.... Because its the better weapon! The Navy and Marine Corps knew this and has never retired them.... I used the M14 when I was in. So keep drinking the Kool Aid, It really is fun watching you do it

Kev, I would wait a couple more months, save a couple hundred more, and buy the best battle rifle ever devised that is still wacking them in battles right now! Buy the M1A and you will never regret your purchase
Some minor points--the SCAR isn't dead and buried just at the funeral parlour resting as the military did grant a provisional contract for X number of guns to be made.

The M14Dm or the M21 Sniper is being used over there in a DMR capacity but just not in the thousands you purport and the reason it is being used; they had so many hundreds of National Match rifles set up from the competition shooting teams in storage when the DM concept was being put forward and the spare parts to create more plus a large number of standard service rifles that got a full smithing job, new gauged barrels and scope mounts...They also just happened to be chambered in a NATO calibre, otherwise they would have had to have gone and purchased a 1960s FN FAL or variant or bought the new FN, HK etc.--which they weren't ready to do back then and still aren't.

They were able to equip their forces not with the best damn rifle out there but the best damn rifle that they had in stock, in sufficient quantities and in that specific NATO calibre...Then again, not every branch and division is using them as many are using the best damn rifle in that calibre, M25, XM110, Mk.11 and other similar AR10 platform rifles; also being used in primarily a DMR capacity...Why? Because they had sufficient rifles in stock as well and in that calibre...Meant that they didn't have to go out and buy stands of rifles.

Well, according to that brilliant tactician and pompous arsehole Patton the "Greatest Battle Rifle ever created" was the M1 Garand in .30/06.

I'd take a new FNAR based on the BAR sporter with box magazine since it doesn't look like a military rifle or go the hard core military with a HK PSG1A1 or MSG90A Special Purpose of the HK417 Assault Rifle or maybe the FNSCAR 17S.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:27 AM
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I placed my order for an DS arms STG58 today and put my money down.

Arrival time is 8 weeks or less.

I know I could have ordered the rifle faster from someone else, but I am helping out a local business.
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Old 10-24-2010, 03:08 PM
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Good choice, go to the Fal Files web sight, and look up old dirty, it's a franken gun FAL, that the owner has put more then 10,000 rounds through with almost no malfuctions, without cleaning it, other then draging it through mud puddles. I think he has over 12,000 rounds through it now. Try that with a M-14
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:13 AM
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Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:48 AM
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Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
Yea, he'll have buyers remorse for sure.
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:50 AM
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Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
Yea, he'll have buyers remorse for sure.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:28 AM
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Yea, he'll have buyers remorse for sure.
Talk all the internet smack you want.... The difference between you and me is I actually used one in combat... A M14, 7.62x51 MBR and you didn't!
The M21 EBR is the best, most reliable, most accurate 7.63x51/.308 MBR on the planet! And that is why our troopers and Special Forces are using them by the thousands today
The AR platformed M110 is out and could be used but yet you still see them using the M21 EBR
What you never see them using is a FAL or a HK So keep smokin the happy stuff
Me I'll take the "American Girl"


Better tell all these guys they are using a inferior weapon just cause its what we had in the closet
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
1) It is not an AK in .308.
2) FN-FAL is not French made but Belgium.
3) The countries that had them (and/or local made variants) were about 70% of NATO including England, Canada, Germany etc. and lots of African countries.
4) Israel where I learned to use it at the same ranges that you were taught to shoot the M1A--out to 500M.
5) IDF soldiers were giving back their M16s (when they first arrived during the Yom Kippur War) and were begging for their inaccurate, unreliable FN-FALs.

I didn't like them because of the stock shape didn't fit my body--arms too long so I got kicked with them but I've never had a any jams with mine and I didn't keep it meticulously clean either--couple of passes with the pull through and a quick wipe down of the receiver was all that it usually got in the field.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:47 AM
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1) It is not an AK in .308.
2) FN-FAL is not French made but Belgium.
3) The countries that had them (and/or local made variants) were about 70% of NATO including England, Canada, Germany etc. and lots of African countries.
4) Israel where I learned to use it at the same ranges that you were taught to shoot the M1A--out to 500M.
5) IDF soldiers were giving back their M16s (when they first arrived during the Yom Kippur War) and were begging for their inaccurate, unreliable FN-FALs.

I didn't like them because of the stock shape didn't fit my body--arms too long so I got kicked with them but I've never had a any jams with mine and I didn't keep it meticulously clean either--couple of passes with the pull through and a quick wipe down of the receiver was all that it usually got in the field.
Read the post again.... I said that it was realiable like a AK but it was a 308
The major user of the FAL were the french and they sold them off to many 3rd world countries....
Are you saying the FAL is even close to as accurate as the M14? Really
Again, the FAL couldn't hold the empty shell casings of a M14 and never will! It is all but out of service by every major Army but the M14/M21 is in a revival
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:10 AM
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I'am looking for a 308 semi-auto rifle - recommend some good ones below the $800 price range.

After doing some internet searches, I came across the Cetme 308. If anyone here has a Cetme 308, please post your experiences. Several years ago I owned an H&K SP89, so the safety and charging of the Cetme should not be new. for some reason, part of the Cetme design looks just like an H&K.

The ideal rifle would be something like the Springfield Armory M1A or Scout A1. but I do not have $1,400 to drop on a rifle.

There is the remington model 750 woodsmaster. But there is not much of a price difference between the remington 750 and the Cetme 308. And the Cetme 308 accepts large capacity magazines, while the 750 does not.

I already have a remington model 700 bolt action rifle in 280/7mm express, and a marlin 336 in 30-30.

DPMS makes a AR-15 / AR-10 style rifle in 308, but the prices I have seen put it over $1,000.

There is the saiga in 308, but I dont know how the accuracy is.

The rifle is going to be my primary deer hunting rifle. On occasion it might be brought hog hunting, or on camping trips. Most of my shots are less then 100 yards.

I also have an Bushmaster AR-15 223 / 5.56mm and WASR-10 in 7.62X39. The goal is to have something with a little more power then either of those 2 rifles. Something that is rugged enough to take take where ever, but accurate enough to make 100+ yard shots and hit a baseball sized target.

i would keep an eye out on gunbroker you might beable to get a good deal on an AR-10 or maybe a saiga308. you can get good deals i once had a saiga 308 that i bought on gunbroker it was already converted and was buy now for $300 it was only up for 45 mins when i bought it a converted saiga308 at that time was selling for $500-$600(i made a quick $200).

decide on 2-3 rifles you want and keep an eye out for a good deal. look at the most recent postings look everyday until you go pay full price on what ever weapon you settle on. you just never know a good deal might just pop up... mine was only up for 45 mins

if you get a saiga 308 i would get the longer barreled one it has less recoil if you match the ammo with the weapon you can get 1" grps @ 100yrds. most ppl report 1"-2" grps.

your in luck classic arms has both DMPS selling for $899 or a saiga308 (short barrel) $449... not a bad deal i think i would go with the DMPS

http://www.classicarms.us/
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:42 AM
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Talk all the internet smack you want.... The difference between you and me is I actually used one in combat... A M14, 7.62x51 MBR and you didn't!
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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Better tell all these guys they are using a inferior weapon just cause its what we had in the closet
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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
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Are you saying the FAL is even close to as accurate as the M14? Really

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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Again, the FAL couldn't hold the empty shell casings of a M14 and never will!

Get your head out of your arse CZ.

Enjoy your new rifle Kev.
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:28 AM
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Read the post again.... I said that it was realiable like a AK but it was a 308
The major user of the FAL were the french and they sold them off to many 3rd world countries.... They never did!
Are you saying the FAL is even close to as accurate as the M14? Really Yes, for sure, definately "as accurate".
Again, the FAL couldn't hold the empty shell casings of a M14 and never will! It is all but out of service by every major Army but the M14/M21 is in a revival
Sorry, you should read your own post again!

France made at MAS--Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de St-Etienne the MAS-49 and used them during the same period and looks and works nothing at all like the other rifles...FN--Fabrique Nationale de Herstal in Belgium made the FAL (Fusil Automatique Léger ("Light Automatic Rifle") and they sold it to the world...After the AK the most ubiquitous military rifle in the WORLD is the FAL or variant rifles like the Spanish CETME--Centro de Estudios Técnicos de Materiales Especiales (Center for Technical Studies of Special Materials, the German HK G3 (modified CETME), the Austrian Sturmgewehr 58 or the British L1A1 SLR.

Firstly, are we comparing the FN-FAL against the M1A1/M14 stock as issued to everyday soldiers or the A3 against the M21...They both have the same accuracy potential stock or when embellished with all the fancy accuracy improvements...They both have the same reliability and cleaning issues BUT that form of battle rifle was incorporated by some eighty (80+) plus countries while the M1/M14 was phased out by one and sold to what, ten countries but as surplus not manufacturing rights.

Then which version of the FAL will we compare--the light barrel, the heavy barrel or the full automatic version in both barrel weights...Those are barrel contours not barrel lengths like on the SOCOM or carbine version of the M14 which FAL also has...From what I've read in Small Arms Review and other magazines of that genre; in the various Defense Reviews/Blogs what the military pays, cost wise, for the basic "stand"---that's the rifle, sling, bayonet, mag, cleaning kit, service contract etc.---the M1/M14 is cheaper, AND, by quite a bit...That's brand new, direct from the manufacturer for a stock, general (G.I.) soldier issue and you wonder why it never sold to the rest of the world.

The HK G3SG/1, the PSG1/MSG-90, the Chilean FAMAE FD-200, the Danish Gv M/66, the Swedish G3SG/1, the Greek SAR-3a3, the Canadian C2A1, the Australian L2A1 etc., etc. etc. will ALL shoot just AS GOOD as the XM21 will...Actually, in many cases BETTER since the M1/M14 didn't fair too, too well at the various countries military sniper competitions and not surprisingly the AR10 version did quite a bit better.

You're delusional! There is no "revival" as they are just using up stock that they had on hand...The same reason that the AR10 is being used, you had a bunch of them kicking around in storage, collecting dust.

What bloody thousands and thousands? They are a DMR and there is what, one sniper team (M40) and four designated marksmen (M21) in a forty man front line platoon? How many platoons to a Company, a Regiment, a Battalion then that figure times four...You do the math!

Springfield Armory isn't showing a massive upsurge in civilian purchases of their M1/M14 rifles and from reading their financial statements they aren't anticipating one either...They make their X number of each version per month and they might have a back-order some months but nothing significant.

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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Yeah, and then take your FAL out to a real battlefield and try some long range shooting with it
A FAL is a .308 AK, only less reliable Come to think of it.... Its less reliable than a M14 too, and less accurate, and cheaper made, and only used by countries that can only afford French weapons
You go right ahead and take your FAL, I'll stay with what I used in the service, The M1A
No, the G3/HK91 is the 308 AK. The FAL is the right arm of the free world.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:40 AM
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No, the G3/HK91 is the 308 AK. The FAL is the right arm of the free world.
Eh, the G3 and FAL are very popular on both sides of all modern conflicts. They are the two most widely used MBRs in the world. The m14 doesn't even come close.

That's been established over and over, and over...but people will be ignorant and stand by an m14 until the day they die. That's not a problem though, the m14/m1a is a great battle rifle. Just don't go sayin' it's far and away superior and can't "hold the brass" to similair rifles that have seen far more use, and actual conflict with outstanding results.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kev View Post
I placed my order for an DS arms STG58 today and put my money down.

Arrival time is 8 weeks or less.

I know I could have ordered the rifle faster from someone else, but I am helping out a local business.
I had a 16" Ohio Rapid Fire Carbine built on an Imbel receiver. Think an 18" or whatever the full size gun would've been more enjoyable, at least for the shooters around me.

That 16" really has a loud report. Sold it off a few years ago with the intention of buying a M1A. Finally got my M1A in August.

My 2 trusted friends both traded up to the M1A and had left me behind. They were shooting rings around me.

The M1A is really alot easier to shoot well with when compared to the FAL. Sights on the M1A are superior and trigger on the M1A is supperior.

It's easier to mount a scope on a FAL. The scope rail top cover that DSA sells keeps the scope lower on the barrel than anything available for the M1A.

I'm still tempted to pick up another FAL - fullsize.

Either way - DSA is good to go and you should enjoy that rifle.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:33 PM
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An interesting read of the aside thread re the FAL v m14.
I carried a FAL.. L1A1 SLR, for four years during which my life and that of those around me depended on it. There was not one single instance of malfunction, missfeed or missfire during that whole time, and this includes the same weapons carried by the rest of my squadron. It worked in the Artic Circle in Norway, the sands of Muscat and Oman, the rainforests of Belize and the mud and cow droppings of Northern Ireland.

My own opinion is that the M14 was only in front line service as a MBR for a very short period of time compared to other US and other countries MBR. If it was such a paragon of virtue, so supremely capable why was it dropped by the only country to use it extensively?

As far as accuracy goes, my SLR was regularly engaging "targets" at 600 m without a miss, fitted with a SUIT at that time. It did all that was required and I am still alive, which is sufficient proof for me.

The very few M14s I encountered, mainly in Germany while part of the BAOR, were comparable to the SLR when used semi automatically but were a real spray and pray, where did that one go? weapon when used full auto. (I was spoilt as we were issued with the LMG, a bren converted to 7.62) There were several problems I observed while on the ranges and in the battle areas of Sennenlager with M14s. Mainly related to magazines, dirt related stoppages, FTF and FTE that caused me to form the opinion that they were not the best of the best. This is based on my own experience and direct observations. I would add that the vast majority of US troops I met were equipped with the M16 and they had far more problems in the mud of the North German plain.

The FAL, particularly the L1A1, is a good MBR. It was never intended to be a snipers weapon, a carbine or a light machine gun, it was a reliable, sturdy, effective weapon used and respected by professional soldiers the world over.( Maybe I should also add that my first small arms instructor, a rather grizzled Sargent major, was convinced that the SLR was outclasses by the SMLE.. )
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:39 PM
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dpms has been a very good weapon for many..
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:58 PM
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Congrats on your new rifle Kev. Let us know how it shoots, and pics would be dandy

I was in the same boat as you awhile back, and me and mine decided to put a few different types to the "test". Fal/G3/M1A

All 3 were reliable, but we decided on the M1A for the following reasons.

1. Iron sights: Easy to use, very precise, and very durable.

2. Location of the safety: I prefer this to any of the others.

3. Long term durability: So far, this has proven to be a very durable design, and a few of ours is approaching the 15K mark with 0 issues. ( This includes SAI M1A's, and Norinco/Polytech M14's built with USGI bolts.)

4. Options when it comes to picking a stock: Unlike the others, this design lends itself to the traditional layout, or a pistol grip type. ( Me and my clan are from the country, and grew up shooting rifles with stock designs very similar to that of the USGI M14 stocks. LOP is easy to modify for the exacts of the end user.

5. I like the idea that I can turn the spindle valve to the closed position, and fire any safe 308/7.62x51mm load out there. I didnt care much for the adjustable gas system of the Fal.

6. A better balanced rifle for us at least. Very "point and shoot" feeling to it, and does not have the front heavy feeling that the Fal/G3 had.

7. Parts for this design are geared more for enhancing precision, and reliability, so I haven't seen a bunch of junk designed with a rifle like this in mind.

8. I'm in the Army at present time, and have used the M14 during deployments. A very rugged,dependable, and accurate rifle from my dealings with them. If I have a choice in the matter, (which I don't most of the time), this is the rifle I would want.

Note: SDM= Squad designated rifleman, and are trained to make hits on mansized targets a tad further than 500m. Feel free to send me a pm for further details Kev

Since I can pick just about anything for personal use, I chose it over the others, ( to include the SR25, and M110.)

9. Optics mounting: With the M14, it all comes down to what you want, and where you wanna mount them. I prefer them over the receiver, and have learned through trial and error as to what works for me, and what aint all that good. This is as low profile as I have ever been able to mount an optic over the receiver, (to include the LRB M25)......


On the "other end", there is a way to mount a red dot sight on an M14/M1A using the fwd "scout" position, and get the sight to co-witness with the iron sights. (My next little project)

Note: This all was about comparisons of the 3 mentioned rifles in thier std layouts. Unlike our current system at work, everyone in my clan is a "SDM", and the M14/M1A is the better rifle for this IMO. A rifleman's rifle.

Note: None of this is cheap by any means. If the plan is to have a rifle for whatever reason, then there are cheaper routes out there. I could have purchased quite a few SKS rifles for the same money, but only have 2 arms, so did not have a need for that many....... as an example.

This might be of interest to you in regards to what is going on with the M14 today.
http://www.smithenterprise.com/index.html

Another site of interest....
http://www.lrbarms.com/m14rifles.html
Other than re-sale value, I cant think of anything that an LRB M14SA rifle can do that my Norinco M14S builds cannot do. Same with my SAI M1A's for that matter.

FTR.... I'm not trying to say that rifle X is better than rifle Y here. Only that this specific rifle is better for me over the others. A Fal,G3 type, AK type, or AR type rifle might be better for someone else as compared to the M14/M1A.
( I do not see Kev's DSA Fal as a money loss in any way. Kev can sell it at a later date if desired, and get something else. My DSA Fal sold for enough money to fund 2 Norinco M14S rifles awhile back for example.)
If something else better comes along, I could do the same, only now, the rifles, mags, etc...... are worth quite a bit more than when I bought them.

Personal preference wins out over anything else in the end.....

just my .02

11B
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