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Old 10-22-2010, 02:52 AM
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Yes it does... The entire world is not given our weapons and definitly not in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s... The United States in those times did not sell our weapons to other countries as a rule. Besides, The rest of the world could not afford a milled Garand action'd weapon. Therefore, they bought the less expensive, ie.. cheaper made FALs and G3s
Are you really for one minute going to argue that a FAL or G3 is a better battle rifle than a M-14
Sell them? LOL! We tried giving the M14 away.

Quote:
Beginning in the early 1970s thousands of M14 rifles were given to several nations under military aid programs. In the 1990s alone, over 100,000 of these rifles have been given away to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, and Turkey. In the USA, for some time the M14 was mostly relegated to Honor Guard and similar duties, but during recent campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan many old M14 rifles were withdrawn from warehouses, dusted off and issued to troops in the field to improve range and lethality of troops armed with 5.56mm weapons.
Note, Latvia, Lithuania, and Turkey all chose the G3 even though we gave them M14s.

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Since 1970 the United States military has destroyed or demilled nearly 750,000 M-14s. The end of the Cold War lead to a slaughter of the M-14s that had survived. No less than 479,367 M14 rifles were destroyed in 1993-94 alone and an unknown number were de-milled then transferred to JROTC units as non-firing drill weapons.
So good we gotta torch em'!

I don't dislike the M14/m1a, you know I owned one CZ, but you're off your rocker if you think it's somehow unquestionably better than an FAL, or a G3.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:55 AM
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I love my HK91,have had it for years,never let me down.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:16 AM
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Fals are nice rifles.

I still think that the Siaga is a nice option too, though.

The nice thing about Saigas is that there are a million aftermarket parts out there for them too.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
This is what I have come up with so far:

Cetme - $500 from century arms, with hit and miss quality

Remington model 750 - $600 - $700

Century arms FAL Rifle R1A1 - $699, lots of complaints about poor quality

FAL G1 SA Sporter from J&G sales - $700, but its still a century arms product. Who do I go to for service after the sale?

FAL R1A1 Sporter from J&G sales - $679, - its a century arms product, lots of stories of poor quality.

This is the one I really like - Century arms Imbel FAL .308 Carbine - $909, lots of stories of poor customer service and poor quality.

PTR 91 - $1,100, a little above my budget.

DPMS Panther - $1,100, a little above my budget.

Remington R25 - $1,200+, out of my price range.

FAL 58 - $1,200+, out of my price range.

I really like the looks of the Century arms Imbel FAL .308 Carbine for $909, but I do not want to buy a rifle that needs work. I would rather buy a remington 750 that does not need any work, instead of spending $900, and run the risk of having to send the rifle back for repairs.

Then there is the problem with finding an FFL dealer to get the Imbel FAL for me. I called a couple of gun dealers - 1 said he was going to look and call me back, but he never called back, 1 did not answer the phone, and another said he could not find the Imbel FAL.

I have called 4 different big stores - gander mountain, academy sports and outdoors and (2) bass pro shops. None of them had a 308 semi-auto in stock. 1 store had a remington 750 in 30-06, but I do not want the recoil of the '06.

I guess the Imbel FAL carbine is one of those things in life, even though I like it, it may not be the best choice. The overall length is right, the barrel length might be a couple of inches short - 16 might be a little short for a 308. But I want something easy to move around in a deer stand.

From everything that I have found, is the remington 750 is best choice for the price? I just can not see spending $1,200 on a Remington R25, when I can get a Remington 750 for almost 1/2 that price.

Kev,

Not trying to be a smart ass here...

You mention the "best for the money" My advice would be to take your budget now and add to it...

Personally my .308 is a bolt action. However, I have a friend that choose a semi auto for his .308. Over the past 2 years we've bought and sold numerous semi auto .308's from factory to customs. What stood the various tests we threw at them and remained accurate and had no failures was...

http://www.lwrci.com/p-120-repr.aspx

More than your budget but worth every penny and justifiably worth "rebudgeting"
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:54 AM
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For below $800 I'd take the saiga, only real downside is the price of magazines, and more added cost if you decide to convert it to pistol grip.

I do have a Cetme, one of the earlier guns back when they were around $350. For that price it was worth going to a gunshow and being able to look over a pile of them to find one with correct gap, non-canted sights, no bent cocking tube and other problems. I would NEVER order anything made by century sight unseen. Sure there are sites out there that can tell you how to fix some problems with a cetme built by century, but to me a firearm should be made right by the manufacturer instead of me buying it and then have to fix it or buy parts within spec to get it running right.

While you didn't mention mounting a scope with the Cetme here's how I see it. The scope mounts made for it are junk and the claw type like the hk uses won't hold zero because the century recievers were not made with the bumps on the receiver to stop the scope mount from moving. The only way to get a decent scope mount on thse rifles is to have a scope rail welded/brazed to the receiver, again more added cost. I'm sure someone will post saying the airsoft scope mount or the junk from b-square works great, but please don't believe them!

hth
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:59 AM
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Adjust your budget up a little, shop around and buy a used M1A.

Saiga would be my second choice.

The century arms CETME is a great rifle, if you get a good build. (cleaning it completely makes all the difference). You really need to inspect it and check the gap. As mentioned above, the century models can have site issues as well as don't work well with HK scope mounts.

FAL would be my last choice.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 0002S View Post
As mentioned above, the century models can have site issues as well as don't work well with HK scope mounts.
Not true my friend, the German Bundeswehr issue stanag mounts work just fine on CETMEs.

Still, I'd avoid the century cetme like the plague unless you find it on the low. Too many problems, and too much hassle, for too much money. Slapping plus sized rollers in to fix an underlying problem with shaven bolt heads, and out of spec builds isn't really the be all end all.

If they were still $300-450 I'd consider it, but for over $500-700 you may as well save up a little longer and get a higher quality roller lock.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:24 AM
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Get the M1A1 there worth the $$$$$$





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Old 10-22-2010, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler&Coke View Post
Not true my friend, the German Bundeswehr issue stanag mounts work just fine on CETMEs.

Still, I'd avoid the century cetme like the plague unless you find it on the low. Too many problems, and too much hassle, for too much money. Slapping plus sized rollers in to fix an underlying problem with shaven bolt heads, and out of spec builds isn't really the be all end all.

If they were still $300-450 I'd consider it, but for over $500-700 you may as well save up a little longer and get a higher quality roller lock.
I've never tried the Bundeswehr. I've never had success when I've tried others who've had them. They always move slightly under recoil and never hold zero. I don't see much use for a scope on my CETME, but I can see where others would like one. I do have a quick detach scope for my M1A though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
I think I like the carbine better then the full version, and the carbine cost a little bit more.
That's capitalism, pure and simple. The "base" FAL has a 20" barrel, but the carbines shorten them to 16"-18". Two inches less metal, but more expensive. Supply and demand.

Will you ever notice a 2" barrel difference? Will you notice $300 more in your wallet?

Since I'm not going to use a FAL for CQB (my AK is for that) I have no problem with a 20". Possibly a bit more weight, possibly a bit more accuracy ... but fewer $$$s.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:04 PM
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My current Wish List is an IMBEL FAL. The FAL wasn't named "the right hand of freedom" for all those years for nothing. If a country didn't buy the US M-16, then they bought the FAL.

Don't know if it's a plus or minus for you, but the FAL is a battle rifle, not a precision rifle (like the Remington 700 or other bolt guns). Are you hunting elk in a hidden blind or diving into the mud and coming up shooting?

Reliability is almost as great as the AK, with the addition of a far better round.

It's heavy, but just about any genuine battle rifle hangs around 10 pounds anyway.

The CETME has always been my 2nd choice, but I just haven't been convinced on the roller-locking system. I want a SHTF gun and the fewer the moving parts the better. Plus every moving part can/will degrade accuracy.

The M1A is a fantasy/dream; The Gentle Bride™ doesn't give me that big of an allowance. :-)

I already have a Savage 10 bolt gun in .308 that shoots like a dream, so I'm no longer looking for precision alone.

The most important thing is getting a firearm that feels good in your hands, something you are confident in, and something that you can afford, without being influenced too much by opinions of strangers. :-) At the end of the day as long as you can put lead on target then who cares who build the gun?

Take a gander at "The General Purpose Combat Rifle" by Gabe Suarez (again, assuming you're interested in combat rifles over hunting rifles).
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler&Coke View Post
I don't dislike the M14/m1a, you know I owned one CZ, but you're off your rocker if you think it's somehow unquestionably better than an FAL, or a G3.
Drinking the H&K Kool aid again I see In this day and age, when our special forces can just about have any weapon they want, H&Ks included, you don't see one G3 or FAL in their hands.... A lot of M14s but not one G3 or FAL.

I'm sure you'll find a good reason for this, like the speccomm hate the Gremans and French or something
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Drinking the H&K Kool aid again I see In this day and age, when our special forces can just about have any weapon they want, H&Ks included, you don't see one G3 or FAL in their hands.... A lot of M14s but not one G3 or FAL.

I'm sure you'll find a good reason for this, like the speccomm hate the Gremans and French or something
Yea, the reason is simply that the M14 is "our" rifle, and it's what we have in our armory. They're already paid for. They do not just have access to anything and everything without getting specific funding...They don't have lockers full of G3s and FALs to pick from, and then simply chose not to.

Also, Special Forces use both H&K, and FN weapons. H&K 416 and 417 have been fielded in combat, as well as the FN SCAR Mk.16 and Mk.17. (17s are .308, 16s are 5.56)

I see that SA cool aid is really getting to you CZ.

Keep in mind the thread title.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:33 PM
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Does it have to be a semi auto? Try one of these:
http://www.tulatoz.ru/en/toz122.html

I like mine.
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:55 PM
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Why is the SX-AR not in consideration? I don't have any experience with the rifle, but as I understand it's virtually identical to the FNAR as far as operation.

Is there some disdain for the rifle? Is it due to poor performance/reviews/bad experiences.

Just wondering as I've been very happy with the FNAR.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:11 PM
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Just got off the phone with local FFL - there is an 8 week waiting period on a new DS Arms STG58 with 18 inch barrel.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
Just got off the phone with local FFL - there is an 8 week waiting period on a new DS Arms STG58 with 18 inch barrel.
Big Sky Guns says they have one in stock and ready to ship.

http://www.bigskyguns.com/product.cg...&product=41437

I thought about buying it myself, but I've got to pay off my credit card first.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:53 AM
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Big Sky Guns says they have one in stock and ready to ship.
A local FFL, who also happens to be disabled, gave me a good price on one.
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Heckler&Coke View Post
Yea, the reason is simply that the M14 is "our" rifle, and it's what we have in our armory. They're already paid for. They do not just have access to anything and everything without getting specific funding...They don't have lockers full of G3s and FALs to pick from, and then simply chose not to.

Also, Special Forces use both H&K, and FN weapons. H&K 416 and 417 have been fielded in combat, as well as the FN SCAR Mk.16 and Mk.17. (17s are .308, 16s are 5.56)

I see that SA cool aid is really getting to you CZ.

Keep in mind the thread title.
Uhhhh, Yeah
There's like maybe three of each in service and for testing only Nice try though.... The SCAR was canceled and will not be bought by the US military and the H&K is still under review... Good luck And don't hold your breath
The M14 is being used in the thousands over there right now, Why.... Because its the better weapon! The Navy and Marine Corps knew this and has never retired them.... I used the M14 when I was in. So keep drinking the Kool Aid, It really is fun watching you do it

Kev, I would wait a couple more months, save a couple hundred more, and buy the best battle rifle ever devised that is still wacking them in battles right now! Buy the M1A and you will never regret your purchase
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZDiesel View Post
Uhhhh, Yeah
There's like maybe three of each in service and for testing only Nice try though.... The SCAR was canceled and will not be bought by the US military and the H&K is still under review... Good luck And don't hold your breath
The M14 is being used in the thousands over there right now, Why.... Because its the better weapon! The Navy and Marine Corps knew this and has never retired them.... I used the M14 when I was in. So keep drinking the Kool Aid, It really is fun watching you do it

Kev, I would wait a couple more months, save a couple hundred more, and buy the best battle rifle ever devised that is still wacking them in battles right now! Buy the M1A and you will never regret your purchase
You do know that only the Mk 16 was canceled right? The Mk 17 in 7.62 is still being pursued and ordered to fill the MBR/DMR requirment in SOCOM right? There's a big PR war going on between FN and SOCOM, we won't know WTF is going on for quite awhile I think...

Of course the M14 is being used because it's the better weapon...better than the M4 and M16 that is. We agree there. Not really better than the Mk.17, G3, FAL, or H&K 417 though.

Like I said, the m14 is being used now because it's the only thing we have already bought and paid for in armories that fills the longer range requirements of the middle east. In case you've missed it, the Germans are bringing back the G3 to fill the same role in Afghanistan.
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