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Old 05-17-2019, 11:18 AM
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I was all ready to thank your post until this. What is the alternative in a thread such as this?
I don't see this thread as about ecumenism, but rather as Cat's attempt to get everyone to stop fighting and become civil. That's NOT ecumenism.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:37 AM
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Want me to solve this problem? OK, here goes.....


Stay away from "organized religion" and create a personal, one on one, relationship with Christ. All by yourself. Alone. With no church to guide or help you.


Then, start all over in your walk.


THE END....
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:48 AM
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I don't see this thread as about ecumenism, but rather as Cat's attempt to get everyone to stop fighting and become civil. That's NOT ecumenism.
That's a sad post.

Imagine if the topic was not religion but exercise regiment. How in the world does it get to the point where everyone is fighting and no one is civil?

Then when you consider the topic is religion, it is even more paradoxical. That is, if peace and brotherly love TRULY is part of ones religion.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Want me to solve this problem? OK, here goes.....


Stay away from "organized religion" and create a personal, one on one, relationship with Christ. All by yourself. Alone. With no church to guide or help you.


Then, start all over in your walk.


THE END....

You can create a personal, one on one, relationship with Christ without renouncing to Church (organised religion). One thing has nothing to do with the other.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Yes it does if you try to fit yourself into the precast expectations of a church. You cannot follow church doctrine and give yourself fully to the church and build a relationship in a one on one setting with Christ at the same time. I am not saying you cant get close to it, but you will always have someone from that church in your ear telling you how it should or shouldn't be. If you don't, then maybe you are the problem. That's how they work. DO NOT take what I said as an attack on churches, it is not. It is an attack on failed organizations. You need people to grow. BUT YOU DO NOT need people to get to know Christ.....
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:12 PM
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cleatis, I don't think you will find a lot of Biblical support for what you propose. Said differently, how do you counter the many verses obliging us to live as a community of saints?


As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.
Proverbs 27:17

where two or more are gathered in His name, there He is among them
(Matthew 18:20).

Not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Hebrews 10:25 ESV

So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Romans 12:5 ESV

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22 ESV

To equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds
Ephesians 4:12-16 ESV

Last edited by PeterEnergy; 05-17-2019 at 12:30 PM.. Reason: Added Matthew 18:20
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:43 PM
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Yes it does if you try to fit yourself into the precast expectations of a church. You cannot follow church doctrine and give yourself fully to the church and build a relationship in a one on one setting with Christ at the same time. I am not saying you cant get close to it, but you will always have someone from that church in your ear telling you how it should or shouldn't be. If you don't, then maybe you are the problem. That's how they work. DO NOT take what I said as an attack on churches, it is not. It is an attack on failed organizations. You need people to grow. BUT YOU DO NOT need people to get to know Christ.....
I agree 100% that you do not need people to know Christ. He comes into your heart if you receive him (through the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart).

However, to grow in Faith you need both community and the experience of others even if it is to verify what is in your heart. The scriptures show the experience of others in their quest/dealings with God and what great lessons we see there. Same is with the Church (Ecclesia), which through the fact that it is organised it gives you access to the others, that will not hide from you but instead will be forthcoming with their spiritual experiences (and food ).

I advocate to everybody reading the Lives of the Saints, because we see there so much experience and spiritual wealth.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:35 PM
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It is my understanding that dialogue is the discussion and comparing of ideas and information with the goal of understanding, while ecumenism is dialogue plus the goal of compromise and/or agreement so everything is the same, as in the various Ecumenical Councils.


Military chaplains are some very special people, who put God and the immediate needs of the Flock before all else... I have seen a Lutheran chaplain perform Last Rites when needed and no Catholic Priest was available and would not be in time. Also a Catholic chaplain commune Catholics and Protestants together under urgent military circumstances. Etc., etc., etc. IDK if it was a violation of regulations, etc., but IMHO, these were the proper things to do in those circumstances as a [Christian] servant of God.


I would personally have a big problem with it if a non-Christian chaplain (Muslim, Wiccan, etc.) did this, though. Just as I would have a problem with a Christian chaplain leading non-Christian (Hindu, Shinto, etc.), prayers, etc.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Yes it does if you try to fit yourself into the precast expectations of a church. You cannot follow church doctrine and give yourself fully to the church and build a relationship in a one on one setting with Christ at the same time. I am not saying you cant get close to it, but you will always have someone from that church in your ear telling you how it should or shouldn't be. If you don't, then maybe you are the problem. That's how they work. DO NOT take what I said as an attack on churches, it is not. It is an attack on failed organizations. You need people to grow. BUT YOU DO NOT need people to get to know Christ.....
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I agree 100% that you do not need people to know Christ. He comes into your heart if you receive him (through the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart).

However, to grow in Faith you need both community and the experience of others even if it is to verify what is in your heart. The scriptures show the experience of others in their quest/dealings with God and what great lessons we see there. Same is with the Church (Ecclesia), which through the fact that it is organised it gives you access to the others, that will not hide from you but instead will be forthcoming with their spiritual experiences (and food ).

I advocate to everybody reading the Lives of the Saints, because we see there so much experience and spiritual wealth.

The Bible tells us to encourage each other and not to stop gathering together. Hebrews 10:24-25
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...25&version=KJV
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:22 PM
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It is my understanding that dialogue is the discussion and comparing of ideas and information with the goal of understanding, while ecumenism is dialogue plus the goal of compromise and/or agreement so everything is the same, as in the various Ecumenical Councils.
The Catholic Church defines "ecumenism" as the promotion of the restoration of unity among all Christians, the unity which is a gift of Christ and to which the Church is called by the Holy Spirit:

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. (John 17:20-23)

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:4-5)
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Military chaplains are some very special people, who put God and the immediate needs of the Flock before all else... I have seen a Lutheran chaplain perform Last Rites when needed and no Catholic Priest was available and would not be in time.
While I would not mind the prayers of any available person at the time of death, the administration of Lutheran Last Rites would not be a valid sacrament for a Catholic.

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Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
Also a Catholic chaplain commune Catholics and Protestants together under urgent military circumstances. Etc., etc., etc. IDK if it was a violation of regulations, etc., but IMHO, these were the proper things to do in those circumstances as a [Christian] servant of God.
It seems that this circumstance of Protestants receiving Communion from a Catholic priest is problematic. Unless the Protestant assented in belief to the totality of the Catholic faith, they should not receive Communion.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:41 PM
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Well, things work differently within the military. And sometimes church rules are trumped by people's immediate needs. Not out of trying to shove another form of belief down one's throat....but out of love and kindness and compassion.

Knowing there was NO Catholic women's Bible study....the one priest by us gave his consent to the Catholic women to attend the protestant Bible studies. One woman received her first Bible ever thru that women's Bible study, and we were durn sure to make sure it was a Catholic Bible, with all the books that we don't have in ours. It was a study Bible, too, and so the extras and studying parts came from a Catholic point of view. We didn't want her to become protestant....we wanted her TO KNOW JESUS BETTER! Another post, and a marriage that was a protestant and a catholic....the priest allowed the non-catholic to receive communion. He knew she loved Jesus and followed Him fully. She also attended mass with her dh and kids. She didn't try to become catholic herself, but she wasn't against catholicism either.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:54 PM
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I'm not here to hope we'll all believe the same. I don't really bother with how we're different. I enjoy learning. And I enjoy being with people who love Jesus. Church history is interesting...but explain things without trying to shove everyone else into your particular bent. Say hey, I'm of x beliefs, and this is something we find important....and not everyone will place the same importance on it, but this is why it's impt to me. Tell your story. Don't tell others who are deep in their own beliefs that they are wrong and cannot ever know. ....there's a video our pastor did, and he asks, "Who in this room ever came to know Jesus because of someone standing on the corner screaming and shouting, 'Repent or you're going to hell!!!'" No one. I feel that fits here. We used to say that people in our past denomination like to slam people in the head with the Bible....meaning....they were so focused on telling others how wrong they were, according to the Bible....that they lost the part of loving people. Being kind. They just use their Bibles as weapons, to shame and condemn others. Not the way God intended. Our battles using Scripture as a weapon are against spiritual forces, not the PEOPLE around us. The people are won by our love.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:19 PM
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...Military chaplains are some very special people, who put God and the immediate needs of the Flock before all else... I have seen a Lutheran chaplain perform Last Rites when needed and no Catholic Priest was available and would not be in time. Also a Catholic chaplain commune Catholics and Protestants together under urgent military circumstances. Etc., etc., etc. IDK if it was a violation of regulations, etc., but IMHO, these were the proper things to do in those circumstances as a [Christian] servant of God. ...
I strongly disagree with you on this. The military regulations are correct if they state that the chaplain can only minister to the members of their own denomination.

Orthodox Christians are allowed to receive the Holy Sacraments only from an Orthodox priest. In addition, the Lutheran or Catholic chaplain would not know what is expected in the Orthodox Church.

First of all, the Sacrament of Holy Unction is not received only by the dying. Ill or even healthy Orthodox Christians receive the Sacrament. So, while it is considered "Last Rites" in the RCC and, maybe, in the Lutheran Church (?) it is NOT "Last Rites" in the Orthodox Church.

"Last Rites" in the Orthodox Church consist of receiving the Sacrament of Confession and Holy Communion. Holy Unction is then received and special prayers are then read. An Orthodox Christian is NOT allowed to receive the Eucharest from a Roman Catholic Priest or a Protestant minister.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if I was dying (on the battle field or otherwise) and a non-Orthodox priest tried to get me to receive what they consider "Last Rites" I would consider that an attempt to convert me before my death and would refuse.

The military regulations got this one correct!
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old fart

...Military chaplains are some very special people, who put God and the immediate needs of the Flock before all else... I have seen a Lutheran chaplain perform Last Rites when needed and no Catholic Priest was available and would not be in time. Also a Catholic chaplain commune Catholics and Protestants together under urgent military circumstances. Etc., etc., etc. IDK if it was a violation of regulations, etc., but IMHO, these were the proper things to do in those circumstances as a [Christian] servant of God. ...
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I strongly disagree with you on this. The military regulations are correct if they state that the chaplain can only minister to the members of their own denomination.
So, your theory is men dying on the battle field should be ignored as the military chaplain's highest duty is to his denomination while putting the immediate needs of the Flock no where on the priority list?

Hmmm. Seems to me the army has only one denomination, green.

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I'm not trying to be offensive here
<sigh>

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The military regulations got this one correct!
What about the if? It is almost as though Old fart's 1st hand obversations of what chaplains do in the military are ignored.

I swear some of the stuff you write is completely alien to me, the absence of compassion, humility or desire to serve is frequently shocking.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:50 PM
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I received communion from chaplains with differing denominations than my own. I NEVER had a chaplain at our chapels who held the same denominational background beliefs. I never received communion from a Catholic priest, but then I never went to mass. I never saw an Orthodox priest as a chaplain in any of the chapels where we were stationed. I'll go further and say I've never known someone who was of the Orthodox faith before. We did have a Jewish chaplain as our unit chaplain. He went around to many different communities in our area, as he was the only Jewish chaplain. He worked within military chapels full of protestant and catholic worshippers. And the people within his unit, where 90% of his work was, were full of a multitude of beliefs...and non-beliefs. The Catholic chaplain also had several chapels he ministered at, as he was the only military priest available in our area. My Catholic friends only had mass once or twice a month for awhile, and after that, they had to drive 40+ min away to another chapel for a weekly service.

Eta...from what I saw in the chapel system, a military chaplain's first call was to the people within his/her military unit. The services on sat, sun, whenever were secondary. They went to the field with their units, they deployed with their units, their job was to the soldiers in their unit. And when allllll the chaplains deploy with alllll the units on a post....guess who is NOT left behind to take care of the spouses and children. Now, after a little bit of what the heck is gonna happen....reserve chaplains were deployed to minister to the spouses and children still on post. This may have been a one-off, as where we were stationed wasn't like in the US....our bases were pretty job specific....and in our case, the ENTIRE base deployed. There was a rear detachment officer per unit...which means we had less than 15-20 soldiers who stayed back for a full yr.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:18 PM
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If that servicemember had been *only* ill, or was healthy... not an emergency... there would have been time to get a Catholic Priest or chaplain, so the Lutheran chaplain would not have done what he did. The Lutheran chaplain in this case didn't perform a Lutheran rite... he performed the Catholic one... had a Catholic prayer book...

I have never known a military chaplain try to convert anyone, and if ministering to a service member of a different faith, the counseling, prayers, etc. were consistent with the denomination of the service member. Some service members were still opposed or uncomfortable with a different denomination's chaplain, and would rather go without or wait until whenever (which could be never), so their wishes were respected.

Most military chaplains are knowledgeable about multiple denominations because of close working relationships with other denominations' chaplains, service members and families have questions, and the "correct" denomination is not always available. It's not as if the military has a chaplain for each denomination (or even most denominations) on every installation. And there may not be an available civilian church/clergy off-post, especially overseas or remote areas.

Like I said, IDK if those were instances were violations of regulations or not, and IDK if regulations have changed between then and now, either (it was a long time ago). I do know that chaplains in at least some denominations have more latitude in what they do under emergency circumstances, especially while serving in the military. What any specific denomination's chaplains are allowed to do by the denomination is going to differ...

I still say the military chaplaincy is awesome... They have a very difficult ministry and do it very well under sometimes very adverse and dangerous conditions
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:18 PM
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Well, things work differently within the military.
Well, help me out here; what works differently? I may have missed something in my 20 years, 3 months, and 25 days of active service.

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And sometimes church rules are trumped by people's immediate needs.
Says who?

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Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
Not out of trying to shove another form of belief down one's throat....but out of love and kindness and compassion Ö Another post, and a marriage that was a protestant and a catholic....the priest allowed the non-catholic to receive communion. He knew she loved Jesus and followed Him fully. She also attended mass with her dh and kids. She didn't try to become catholic herself, but she wasn't against catholicism either.
There is nothing of love, kindness, and compassion for a Catholic priest to give Communion to a Protestant who believes the consecrated bread and wine are simply a symbol of Christís Body and Blood and not truly Christís Body and Blood. The Apostle Paul warns us:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (1 Corinthians 11:23-30)
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:33 PM
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... So, while it is considered "Last Rites" in the RCC ... it is NOT "Last Rites" in the Orthodox Church.
Actually it is termed the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, and its application is more than just at the point of death.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:46 PM
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If that servicemember had been *only* ill, or was healthy... not an emergency... there would have been time to get a Catholic Priest or chaplain, so the Lutheran chaplain would not have done what he did. The Lutheran chaplain in this case didn't perform a Lutheran rite... he performed the Catholic one... had a Catholic prayer book...
Even though the Lutheran chaplain may recite Catholic prayers, he does not administer a valid sacrament for a sick or dying Catholic.
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:59 AM
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So, your theory is men dying on the battle field should be ignored as the military chaplain's highest duty is to his denomination while putting the immediate needs of the Flock no where on the priority list?

Hmmm. Seems to me the army has only one denomination, green. .
The chaplain has no right to push his beliefs on any soldier. Someone who is a true believer in his Faith is not going to want someone of a different Faith ministering to them in their final moments. Personally, I would refuse anyone except for an Orthodox priest. It would be a denial of my Faith and a sin to accept "Last Rites" from a non-Orthodox chaplain.

No, the military has many religious denominations. When in combat the only concern is completing the mission and having your comrade's back. When dying the only concern is salvation and receiving religious rites from other than your Faith is a denial of your lifelong beliefs.



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I swear some of the stuff you write is completely alien to me, the absence of compassion, humility or desire to serve is frequently shocking.
It's alien to you because you have no concrete Faith, just some vague "Universalist" belief that every religion, philosophy, and creed is equal. My views have got nothing to do with "the absence of compassion and humility." It's got to do with the fact that I BELIEVE THAT THE ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN FAITH IS MY PATHWAY TO SALVATION.

We know that you don't believe that and that's your business. If someone truly believes in his particular Faith, then he doesn't want a military chaplain or any other clergyman of a different Faith messing with his head, especially when he is dying. THAT IS WHY THE MILITARY HAS THAT REGULATION!
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