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Old 06-30-2019, 01:14 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Nice to see a civil discussion
This is a good and productive thread
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Eschatology is opaque
I have never seen anyone fully grasp it
Clearly not an area of agreement and not essential to salvation
Paul made it clear that he could not set out all he knew due to our limitations
This may be one of those areas
But really interesting to consider eschatology
I tend to be little more civil/humble with subjects that I feel fairly ignorant on.
I agree, I have not seen anyone fully grasp it either.
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:15 PM
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Don't hold your breath Jack. I'm sure we can mess up this thread by having endless arguments
Yes we can
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:16 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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Thanks esheldon, I couldn't wrap my mind around it last night and see that I can't explain it now that I am fully awake!
LOL, I hate when that happens.

Yeah...I have thought about it before...when the New Jerusalem comes down, there will still be sinners around. How is this? What am I not seeing?
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:33 PM
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Not being the Scripturalist as many are here, what's the possibility of people who even see Jesus still deciding not to follow His word?
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Old 06-30-2019, 04:19 PM
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Not being the Scripturalist as many are here, what's the possibility of people who even see Jesus still deciding not to follow His word?
what do you mean?
what is the possibility of people being saved on the last day?
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:21 PM
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what do you mean?
what is the possibility of people being saved on the last day?
I guess, in a way. Many believe in the one thousand years of peace which will be somehow announced by Jesus, yet without His physical return to Earth. Whether His spiritual presence will be felt full time here for the full 1,000 years, I would assume guaranteeing faithfulness from everybody still alive, or would everyone here alive at the beginning of those 1,000 years remain alive, I'm not convinced. And as Satan is to be released at the end of that thousand years, would he be able to exert his influence on us like he's been able to do all this time with the chance of making disciples again? Will humanity fight the final battle or is it between angels and demons? And in fact if some humans are swayed by Satan, would they have the chance to repent even up to the last day?

A whole lot of "ifs".
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:22 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Catholics believe what the Pope tells them to believe.
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:31 PM
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Catholics believe what the Pope tells them to believe.
Catholics believe what the Catechism teaches, the Magesterium holds, and what Tradition encompasses.

The Pope guides us. If he proclaims, as a matter of Faith and Morals, a particular belief should be held, that's his job, and the Holy Spirit will guide him to an inerrant decision.

Of course, he can have opinions like any other man. Anything he says that contradicts the above three things is wrong, and we certainly will not believe it.

So stop making inane and ignorant statements.

You hate the Church and Pope, I get it. But don't make up lies.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
Catholics believe what the Catechism teaches, the Magesterium holds, and what Tradition encompasses.

The Pope guides us. If he proclaims, as a matter of Faith and Morals, a particular belief should be held, that's his job, and the Holy Spirit will guide him to an inerrant decision.

Of course, he can have opinions like any other man. Anything he says that contradicts the above three things is wrong, and we certainly will not believe it.

So stop making inane and ignorant statements.

You hate the Church and Pope, I get it. But don't make up lies.
I certainly do not hate the Pope or the RCC, but I have been away for a while and have not kept up with recent developments. I beg your forgiveness.

Is there now a mechanism by which a sitting Pope - during his earthly lifetime - can be corrected for erroneous proclamations on faith and/or morals? Due to the Holy Fathers doctrinal insulation from error, can this correction come from WITHIN the Roman church or MUST it come from other Christian Patriarchs with documented Apostolic Succession?

Has Pope Francis made ex cathedra proclamations during his pontificate? Benedict XVI? JPII? JPI? John XXIII? How many infallible proclamations have been made by sitting Roman Popes since the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility was established by Vatican I in 1870?
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:15 PM
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I certainly do not hate the Pope or the RCC, but I have been away for a while and have not kept up with recent developments. I beg your forgiveness.
Nothing to forgive, my friend. That response wasn't meant for you

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Is there now a mechanism by which a sitting Pope - during his earthly lifetime - can be corrected for erroneous proclamations on faith and/or morals? Due to the Holy Fathers doctrinal insulation from error, can this correction come from WITHIN the Roman church or MUST it come from other Christian Patriarchs with documented Apostolic Succession?
Popes are men. Men are certainly not perfect, and putting on the pointy hat gives no aura of perfection. Case in point, Pope Francis seems to be completely taken with Global Warming/people caused Climate Change. If he were to make an announcement to the Church that we all must cut down our driving or we must all start riding bikes, we would, politely, tell him to strike silica. Not his place or job to mandate that. If he were to proclaim that the new Worship Day is now Monday, same answer, although with a thorough psych evaluation.
Now, it is within his purvue to proclaim new Feast Days, beatify and canonize new Saints, even change Liturgy (I believe). But what Vatican I did is to codify the Doctrine that has been held since the beginning, and clearly define the parameters. If any Pope declares a Doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be worthy of belief, and does so ex Cathedra, the Church holds that such a pronouncement would have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and thus simply could not be in error. So there could not be any correction from anyone on it.

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Has Pope Francis made ex cathedra proclamations during his pontificate? Benedict XVI? JPII? JPI? John XXIII? How many infallible proclamations have been made by sitting Roman Popes since the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility was established by Vatican I in 1870?
If you google "ex Cathedra", you will find that answer. (I think you've already done that, though )

Here's a piece of an article written in Catholic Answers

(Here is the link to the whole thing.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/pr...-infallibility )


Quote:
Whenever the Church defines a dogma of the faith, you will always have people assuming that that is the date of the doctrine’s “invention.” With this mindset, the divinity of Christ was “invented” in 325, and Christians did not “invent” the union of the human and divine natures of Christ until more than a century after that.

Needless to say, the definition of a doctrine is not synonymous with its invention. This would be similar to saying that the fruit of a tree is no different than its original seed. As a seed is planted and may not reach fruition for years, the doctrines of the faith—such as the personhood of the Holy Spirit—may take many centuries to develop and articulate clearly. But regardless of how long the Church takes to define a particular teaching, it must be present from apostolic times.

Evidence for this with regard to infallibility is not lacking. Almost a century before the divinity of Christ was dogmatically established, Cyprian of Carthage had this to say of the Church, “Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come” (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 A.D.]).

Prior to this, Irenaeus of Lyons said, “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

In 433 Pope Sixtus III said that “all know that to assent to [the Bishop of Rome’s] decision is to assent to St. Peter, who lives in his successors and whose faith fails not.” While there are many other passages from the early Church Fathers that demonstrate the infallibility of the Church, these should suffice to prove that the doctrine was not “invented” in 1870 when Vatican I defined it formally
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
...
Popes are men. Men are certainly not perfect...
...
If any Pope declares a Doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be worthy of belief, and does so ex Cathedra, the Church holds that such a pronouncement would have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and thus simply could not be in error. So there could not be any correction from anyone on it.
...
Thanks for the response. Being RC for many decades, I am aware of the formula that the Roman Church used and continues to use to establish and maintain a veneer of Papal authority over the rest of Christiandom. While still a member of the RCC, I vigorously argued in favor of that authority.

As you well know, there were seven Ecumenical Councils of the unified (ie pre-schismatic) Christian Church. Since the schism of 1054, there have been a number of local councils, both East and West. The First Vatican Council held 1869-1870 was one of the local councils of the West. The notion of Papal Infallibility was - for the first time in history - officially established as Roman Catholic doctrine at that time.

Sometimes, timing is everything. The Papal Church broke communion with the Eastern Christian Churches in 10th century and took what influence it had back to Rome where it stood alone as the Catholic Church. In the 15th century the Papacy broke communion with Luther and the reformers. By the time of the First Vatican Council in the 18th century, the Roman Pope had far fewer subjects to proclaim doctrine to. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility has never been accepted by the Orthodox Christian Churches of the East nor the Protestant churches of the West.

My previous question still stands. I'm interested in how the succession of Roman Popes since Vatican I have actually used the authority that the Council has granted them. Have any Popes since Vatican I used the doctrine of Papal Infallibility to make ex cathedra proclamations regarding faith and/or morals? Have any of their proclamations caused controversy within the church?
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
Thanks for the response. Being RC for many decades, I am aware of the formula that the Roman Church used and continues to use to establish and maintain a veneer of Papal authority over the rest of Christiandom. While still a member of the RCC, I vigorously argued in favor of that authority.

As you well know, there were seven Ecumenical Councils of the unified (ie pre-schismatic) Christian Church. Since the schism of 1054, there have been a number of local councils, both East and West. The First Vatican Council held 1869-1870 was one of the local councils of the West. The notion of Papal Infallibility was - for the first time in history - officially established as Roman Catholic doctrine at that time.

Sometimes, timing is everything. The Papal Church broke communion with the Eastern Christian Churches in 10th century and took what influence it had back to Rome where it stood alone as the Catholic Church. In the 15th century the Papacy broke communion with Luther and the reformers. By the time of the First Vatican Council in the 18th century, the Roman Pope had far fewer subjects to proclaim doctrine to. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility has never been accepted by the Orthodox Christian Churches of the East nor the Protestant churches of the West.

My previous question still stands. I'm interested in how the succession of Roman Popes since Vatican I have actually used the authority that the Council has granted them. Have any Popes since Vatican I used the doctrine of Papal Infallibility to make ex cathedra proclamations regarding faith and/or morals? Have any of their proclamations caused controversy within the church?
So the tract I provided gave explanation that even though Vatican I officially codified and defined the Dogma of Papal Infallibility, the concept itself was in force from the earliest Church. Read the complete tract I provided.
The Church was, and is, the Church. There was no separate Orthodox belief system until much later. The Eastern Chrches accepted the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome just like the West. Distance, language, time, and full of themselves prelates all contributed to that Schism. Not the time or place to get into that.

To answer your particular question...

There is no set list of ex cathedra teachings, but that’s because there are only two, and both are about Mary: her Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in after the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870) and her bodily Assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950).

Considering both beliefs were held by the Church proper since at least the 400's, these ex Cathedra declarations only defined what was already believed.
So neither one caused any controversy.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:34 PM
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So the tract I provided...
... and so forth ...
If the Papal-specific teaching of the Immaculate Conception was not controversial in the West, why did it need to be dogmatized at all? Was the doctrine of Papal Infallibility established specifically for that purpose?

In the Christian East, the Immaculate Conception is a specific heretical teaching that must be publicly renounced before catechumens may be received into Holy Orthodoxy.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:00 AM
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Thanks for the response. Being RC for many decades,...

The Papal Church broke communion with the Eastern Christian Churches in 10th century... In the 15th century the Papacy broke communion with Luther and the reformers. By the time of the First Vatican Council in the 18th century, the Roman Pope had far fewer subjects to proclaim doctrine to.
Out of curiosity, why did you convert to Eastern Orthodoxy?

11th century...16th century...19th century...
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:33 AM
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Out of curiosity, why did you convert to Eastern Orthodoxy?

11th century...16th century...19th century...
Why? I could write any number of pages to answer that question. The last line would always be the same. I was called to the doorstep of Orthodoxy by the Holy Spirit. Once I crossed the threshold, I was powerless to turn my back to Him.

Agreed
  • Nativity, Resurrection, Pentecost, 1st century
  • Great Schism, 1054, 11th century
  • 95 Theses, 1517, 16th century
  • Vatican One, 1870, 19th century
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