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Old 09-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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Aerindel Aerindel is offline
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right, they are spending tons of money when they could instead be making money
Well..like I said....the the COUNTY spending the money. Which means its not really their money....its ours.

But yes, its absolutely real

This isn't mine, but in another area they spent almost 10 million dollars on an animal bridge

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...cson/32600077/

Just google animal bridge, they are being built all over the place.

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i've read a number of different sources that suggest that there are more deer in the US now than when the first white settlers landed, due to the elimination of their predators, and massive agriculture.
Indeed. But I don't know what your point is.
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
to be clear, i do not break the law on this matter. i just don't agree it's strictly an immoral, unethical act to kill a deer out of season on your own land.
The irony of suppressors on the tax stamp list Is due to dnr upset over people trying to feed their family. During the depression
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
They aren’t based on law. But the laws, and how you act in regards to the law demonstrate your ethics and morality.

If you are a citizen, a member of a society, the legitimate laws that govern that society are supposed to be your “code”. Ethically, you follow them, even if you argue or fight to change them within the system. It’s unethical to simply ignore them, unless you have a legitimate reason to consider that law to be “wrong” in some way.

Ignoring the legitimate law of your group is unethical. But not always immoral.
fair enough. i always thought of ethics and morals as being essentially the same thing, but i can see that there might be some nuance there.
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
The irony of suppressors on the tax stamp list Is due to dnr upset over people trying to feed their family. During the depression
well, time must have changed then, because a lot of state dnr's are making them allowable hunting equipment. maybe they need to make sure the feds got the memo
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:27 PM
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well, time must have changed then, because a lot of state dnr's are making them allowable hunting equipment. maybe they need to make sure the feds got the memo
Not exactly what I mean. It's the fact its was put on a tax stamp to keep people from buying them and using them.
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
The irony of suppressors on the tax stamp list Is due to dnr upset over people trying to feed their family. During the depression
Baloney.

Outlawing suppressors wouldn’t change how poachers hunt. They already don’t follow the laws.

Silencers were considered tools of war and spy craft. Like machine guns. So they were grouped into the law.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
Baloney.

Outlawing suppressors wouldn’t change how poachers hunt. They already don’t follow the laws.

Silencers were considered tools of war and spy craft. Like machine guns. So they were grouped into the law.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...-debunked/amp/

Weapons of war? No that's not even true we might one day see rifles with them issued to riflemen.
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
2. poaching is bad because it overuses a shared resource (modern logic). however people run over deer on the road every day and people are fine with that, so, kind of makes you wonder how much they really care about deer being killed

i don't poach, but i do sometimes question the logic. i get on the one hand that if you had open season year round it would be too much. but squeezing it down to 2 weeks a year with a limited list of allowable equipment in some places, this is the reason why there's so many dead deer on the road
Hunting seasons are an artificial construct; however from a management perspective, it provides wild-life management time to assess populations and health of the particular game/fowl. The primary factors that go into the hunting seasons are:

Breeding/nesting
Age/gender distribution
Recreational concerns
Economic concerns

Poaching is done, but if allowed to go unchecked, it would disrupt many of the conservancy efforts (take a look at how poaching affected the elephant populations in certain African countries). Ironically, I did some research and during the depression squirrel hunting was so widespread, squirrel populations dropped to almost extinction levels in Georgia (well, not exactly extinction, but the population was wiped out in the region).

Now, ironically, over-population is occurring in many areas. Conservancy efforts have actually been very successful. Many states have double digits for doe tags. Before I retired our unit Chaplain had some excellent hunting property in SC and he would bring unlicensed, impoverished individuals and allow them to shoot deer on his land and he used his "tags" for the deer; also helping pay for the meat processing they could keep.

There are also a plethora of invasive and pest animals that are often open to all year (which is why I have my hunting license). Hogs are killed by the dozens, I've had to kill numerous beavers on my property, and now we are starting to see boa constrictors and green iguanas popping up on hunting lists due to their exploding populations and pest-nature in Florida.

I can understand questioning the damage of a landowner shooting a deer on their property without a hunting license/tag, and I don't think it's a significant "ethical issue", but I do question the ethical laziness to excuse it. If you're too poor to get a hunting license, open your property to a close friend of two and just ask for the meat. There are so many other options for the impoverished that it's not so much an question of ethics, but of competence and laziness.

Now, that said, regulations can get a little burdensome and some wildlife management bureaucrats can be regulation-Nazis. Most people do want to follow the rules but sometimes things can approach the idiotic. If you hunt on someone's property with their permission, that's fine, but you will get a ticket if you don't have that written permission on hand. I saw a guy get fined and lose his deer due to some odd rule about the deer not having both racks; we can shoot only one spike and another buck with a larger rack. I never got the outcome of the issue, but it was simply stupid.

We are very lucky here in CONUS when it comes to hunting. A buddy just returned from a tour in Germany. The hoops he had to jump through to get licensed to hunt and the very expensive hunts requiring guides were ridiculous. Hunting in Europe is really only for the wealthy; the "King's" peasants are priced out of the opportunity along with the hyper-difficult/bureaucratical licensing process.

I do agree some populations of deer and especially hogs here in GA are exploding and do result in more vehicle accidents. Couple that with a drop in hunter populations and it creates another imbalance. While many fear the possible drop in game populations, the reverse is just as dangerous as overpopulation turns game into pests and they are far more prone to disease and mother-nature's population control methods. We also see this with cougars in California and bear populations in the Smokies. I could see hunting seasons expanding just to address certain population explosions.

Outside of a real survival situation and post-SHTF/WROL, poachers are no different than thieves. If they're rationalizing their poaching today, they'll be rationalizing much less ethical and moral activities post-SHTF.

ROCK6
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post

Outside of a real survival situation and post-SHTF/WROL, poachers are no different than thieves. If they're rationalizing their poaching today, they'll be rationalizing much less ethical and moral activities post-SHTF.

ROCK6
Well said......

Generally, we can legally harvest more big game, than we could put to use.

I know a few in the SE that that could shoot a feral pig destroying their farmland once a week & it would little difference in the feral pig population.


Over the years I would wager we spent $10K on perimeter fencing to keep the high local population of elk, deer, etc out of our off-grid BOL. If not, they would destroy our garden, orchard, vineyard etc, PDQ.

The deer population around our unfenced 40 acre rural home is so thick, we have 10 or 12 deer grazing around our lawn & fenced little garden edges almost every day.

We don't shoot them & they are so tame, we can hand feed some.



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Old 09-09-2019, 06:19 PM
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BB, you only need enough fence to keep the dogs in, the dogs keep the deer out.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:27 PM
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BB, you only need enough fence to keep the dogs in, the dogs keep the deer out.
Impart, our BOL fences are meant to keep livestock IN.

We have two (2) well trained active guard dogs at our BOL.

But, between the elk, deer, bears, wolves & coyotes continuously trying to gain entry. They cannot be everywhere at once 24/7.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...-debunked/amp/

Weapons of war? No that's not even true we might one day see rifles with them issued to riflemen.

Ummm....remind us. Who invented them? For what gun did he invent them? What was that gun used for?

In case you can't read. Hiram P Maxim, son of the guy that designed several extremely useful machine guns, designed the silencer.

He did so to fit the....yep, you guessed it. His dad's MG.

And that MG was used for....war.


As to the TTAG BS. Farago wrote it?

Makes no difference, as I said...criminals don't follow laws, and farmers know that. They don't waste time with stupid things like a law. They'll sit up and shoot the poachers.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
They aren’t based on law. But the laws, and how you act in regards to the law demonstrate your ethics and morality.

If you are a citizen, a member of a society, the legitimate laws that govern that society are supposed to be your “code”. Ethically, you follow them, even if you argue or fight to change them within the system. It’s unethical to simply ignore them, unless you have a legitimate reason to consider that law to be “wrong” in some way.

Ignoring the legitimate law of your group is unethical. But not always immoral.
So it was unethical to return people to their slave owners once they escaped?
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:26 PM
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IN Michigan the farmers can get all the deer predation permits they want.
They can shoot them every day to keep them out of the fields and the DNR does not care. They can give the deer away but they cannot sell them.

ABOUT 30 years ago the whole structure of deer licensing changed.

You see, the auto insurance companies, especially FARMERS INS pushed hard to get a change because there were LOTS of deer in the state and the car deer accidents were costing them tooooo much $$$$$
SO
IT used to be Bucks only unless you were lucky enough to get a doe permit by draw.
NOW
You can shoot anything, and depending on the area you can get doe permits over the counter every day if you want to buy them.

When I first built my house I could throw a couple tons of sugar beets into the back yard and there would be 40-50 deer in the yard waiting to feed.
I put out food now and if we see 5 at a time that is a lot.

30 years ago opening day used to sound like a war zone. Now you can go hours between rifle shots.
Deer numbers way down, not by poaching although it still goes on but by the fact you can shoot a deer a day if you want to so long as you pay your fee to the state.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
So it was unethical to return people to their slave owners once they escaped?
if i understand him, it would be moral to help them escape, but unethical

to me i don't often find opportunity to split those kinds of hairs.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:07 PM
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if i understand him, it would be moral to help them escape, but unethical

to me i don't often find opportunity to split those kinds of hairs.
I understand what he said.
He just doesn't have a basic command of the English language.

Quote:
unethical
[ˌənˈeTHək(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
not morally correct.
"it is unethical to torment any creature for entertainment"


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethic

Quote:




ethic noun
eth·​ic | \ ˈe-thik \
Definition of ethic
1ethics plural in form but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values
the present-day materialistic ethic
an old-fashioned work ethic
—often used in plural but singular or plural in construction
an elaborate ethics
Christian ethics
bethics plural in form but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group
professional ethics
c: a guiding philosophy
d: a consciousness of moral importance
forge a conservation ethic
3ethics plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (such as rightness)
debated the ethics of human cloning

And:

Quote:

Ethics vs Morals: Is there a difference?
Ethics and morals are both used in the plural and are often regarded as synonyms, but there is some distinction in how they are used.

Morals often describes one's particular values concerning what is right and what is wrong:

It would go against my morals to help you cheat on the test.

He appears to view himself as a kind of culture warrior, striking out against the crumbling morals of modern society.
Jonathan Goldsbie, Now Toronto, 16 Oct. 2014

While ethics can refer broadly to moral principles, one often sees it applied to questions of correct behavior within a relatively narrow area of activity:

Our class had a debate over the ethics of genetic testing.

Anybody, it seemed, could make the music -- if they couldn't play guitar, they could push a button -- and nobody worried about the ethics of appropriating riffs.
Jennifer Foote, Newsweek, 23 July 1990

In addition, morals usually connotes an element of subjective preference, while ethics tends to suggest aspects of universal fairness and the question of whether or not an action is responsible:

Laws can be unethical, but legal does NOT automatically equate to ethical.
(Note: genetic testing example above)
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:10 PM
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oh i agree with you 100%. law doesn't equal ethics.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
So it was unethical to return people to their slave owners once they escaped?
It depends on your stance regarding the laws and mores involved, and what you have accepted as correct and right within that framework.

But you seem to be confused about the English language yourself.

From your own quote...

“In addition, morals usually connotes an element of subjective preference...”

That’s morals and laws.



“while ethics tends to suggest aspects of universal fairness and the question of whether or not an action is responsible...”

That’s actions.


Clear enough?
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
oh i agree with you 100%. law doesn't equal ethics.
That’s what I said. Laws don’t equal ethics. Your following or not following them despite accepting the cultural things around the laws, is ethics.

Ethics also governs actions not quite covered by laws. Like it’s legal to do something, but can still be unethical to do it.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ajole View Post
It depends on your stance exactly my point. Laws are not the final word on what is right, just what is legal.regarding the laws and mores involved, and what you have accepted as correct and right within that framework.

But you seem to be confused about the English language yourself.

From your own quote...

“In addition, morals usually connotes an element of subjective preference...”

That’s morals and laws.
no it's not. In no way does it say laws. That's why I specifically included the entire passage vs sections.... In the Interest of clarity and fairness.


“while ethics tends to suggest aspects of universal fairness and the question of whether or not an action is responsible...”

That’s actions.


Clear enough?
no, I am unclear as to whether your being intentionally dishonest, or mistakingly reading in "laws" where it is in no way stated.
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