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Old 09-06-2019, 08:32 AM
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As much as I think it to be super-stupid to bicker and split over this issue, the deal for the first few hundred years was simple.
The Holy Spirit came from Father God
Adding that the Holy Spirit comes from Father God, and The Son, is just not that important to me.
I am thankful for these threads, as I never knew it was even an argument.
Knowing what I know now, it is super-stupid to argue about it.
Myself, and hopefully many others, simply refuse to argue about things that do not deal with Salvation and admission to Heaven.
This is clearly such an issue.
Even though I do not know the answer, I have no problem either way.
I would like the Catholics and Orthodox to reconcile and let each believe what they wish.
I see it both ways
Holy Spirit from Father God alone
Holy Spirit from Father God and Jesus Christ
Sad that such nonsense creates red-lines in the sand
BTW
Why even waste time trying to convince anyone you are right and they are wrong ?????
Spend the energy on unity
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
As much as I think it to be super-stupid to bicker and split over this issue, the deal for the first few hundred years was simple.
The Holy Spirit came from Father God
Adding that the Holy Spirit comes from Father God, and The Son, is just not that important to me.
I am thankful for these threads, as I never knew it was even an argument.
Knowing what I know now, it is super-stupid to argue about it.
Myself, and hopefully many others, simply refuse to argue about things that do not deal with Salvation and admission to Heaven.
This is clearly such an issue.
Even though I do not know the answer, I have no problem either way.
I would like the Catholics and Orthodox to reconcile and let each believe what they wish.
I see it both ways
Holy Spirit from Father God alone
Holy Spirit from Father God and Jesus Christ
Sad that such nonsense creates red-lines in the sand
BTW
Why even waste time trying to convince anyone you are right and they are wrong ?????
Spend the energy on unity
Jack Swilling, how do you solve the lawlessness of a broken signature:

A. Ignore it and kiss as nothing happened.

B. Demand that the lawful become lawless like you.

C. Demand correction (turn back to the signature) and start over.

Which one of the 3 solutions is for you acceptable and you really think it will successfully reconcile the two Churches?

The OC is not against reconciliation. It should start from where it broke, from the Signature that needs to be resolved. If it is not resolved lawfully then the anathemas remain, not by OC will but by the will of the ONE Church as represented at Nicaea. Even the OC cannot revoke those anathemas without the signature being resolved, because those anathemas come from the ONE UNDIVIDED CHURCH and if OC will revoke its signature then it will fall under the same anathemas. The Catholics signed their own anathemas at Nicaea, they need to solve it in the only lawful way, by abiding on the signature and after that (and only after that) start a process of negotiation with the OC for a common Creed.

And you are right. It is very simple thing to do, UNLESS you do not seek unity. The Catholics do not seek unity (we can see that very clearly), I explain in very simple terms above why. They are still in rebellion to the ONE UNDIVIDED CHURCH and apparently want to remain that way. The OC will not join rebellion or lawlessness (not solving the signature). We love the Catholic brothers and think they are so close but not lawful yet.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:47 AM
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Bless your darling heart
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
Without Rome the Orthodox are simply High Church proto-Protestants.
How can we be proto-Protestants when you broke first from the UNDIVIDED CHURCH? Ignoring the problem and repeating a lie will not solve anything but get you more into the myriad of problems lawlessness bring with it: Protestantism (further division) and now Church dissolution (Vatican 2) and "modern" adjustment. (The priest sexual scandal is another effect of a stupid law that would not have passed in the UNIFIED CHURCH, but passed in the rebellious unwise Seat of Rome). Going alone (without blessing) is not without repercussions.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:57 AM
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Bless your darling heart
Bless yours too.

Why don't you answer to the question above? Any reason? I though if you joined this discussion that you are interested for a solution.

Is it A. B. or C?
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Bless your darling heart
I just hope there is intelligent, God fearing, adult EOC leadership behind the scenes. I hope Cat's mentality isn't representative of the Orthodox Church but rather the rare exception. Gives me great comfort knowing Cat isn't in any position of power.

But any way, God speed and I hope and pray unification can be achieved in the near future. I can only imagine the amazing message that would send to an unbelieving world who has fully rejected Christ.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:59 AM
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Keep typing
See all that have been convicted by your typing
I am counting
Zero
Keep typing
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:02 AM
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Keep typing
See all that have been convicted by your typing
I am counting
Zero
Keep typing
I do not need conviction. Just lawfulness. And you are right. Very few (maybe none of you) are lawful based on your response to law (signature). That does not affect me. I will not join in rebellion and lawlessness. You can join the party. I will be outside waiting like a lamb for the Judge to come and see the lawless party.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I just hope there is intelligent, God fearing, adult EOC leadership behind the scenes. I hope Cat's mentality isn't representative of the Orthodox Church but rather the rare exception. Gives me great comfort knowing Cat isn't in any position of power.

But any way, God speed and I hope and pray unification can be achieved in the near future. I can only imagine the amazing message that would send to an unbelieving world who has fully rejected Christ.
The leadership is even more hardcore than me. They do not think I should even speak with rebels to the ONE Faith. Batko can confirm on that if you do not believe me. In fact I think I almost break a few small religious rules by doing this.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:06 AM
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I do not need conviction.
Stubbornness is not a Spiritual Gift!
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:12 AM
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The leadership is even more hardcore than me. They do not think I should even speak with rebels to the ONE Faith. Batko can confirm on that if you do not believe me. In fact I think I almost break a few small religious rules by doing this.
That's very sad if that's the case.

Too bad, all that I read and see is Catholics holding out their hands to you in complete humility and in the spirit of unity (Christ Like) and you bring to the table constant arguments and petty bickering better suited in a bar room.

I truly hope/pray you are wrong on the EOC leadership. I find it hard to believe they too have a junior high mentality rather than the spirit of Christ.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:18 AM
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That's very sad if that's the case.

Too bad, all that I read and see is Catholics holding out their hands to you in complete humility and in the spirit of unity (Christ Like) and you bring to the table constant arguments and petty bickering better suited in a bar room.

I truly hope/pray you are wrong on the EOC leadership. I find it hard to believe they too have a junior high mentality rather than the spirit of Christ.
Evidence speaks more than uninformed opinions like yours. Do you see the OC leadership running towards any UNION with the Catholics? Do you see ANY ouvertures coming from the OC? Or is it from the Catholics that you see a move? And WHY?

Catholics KNOW they broke from the UNDIVIDED CHURCH. that is why they are trying to fix it in these past years. But they are not there yet. They are still lawless (the signature from the UNDIVIDED CHURCH still condemns them). They will see later that further lawlessness will go into their Church and already is there with Francis and they will wake up one they so far away from the UNDIVIDED CHURCH that they will have two choices:

Join OC or join the World.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:33 AM
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Evidence speaks more than uninformed opinions like yours. Do you see the OC leadership running towards any UNION with the Catholics? Do you see ANY ouvertures coming from the OC? Or is it from the Catholics that you see a move? And WHY?

Catholics KNOW they broke from the UNDIVIDED CHURCH. that is why they are trying to fix it in these past years.
Yes, I do

Here's a statement from both sides that offers rational hope to those praying for healing and no doubt sadness to those wishing to keep the angry pot stirring.

The North American Orthodox-Catholic Consultation: (Joint Statement)

Secondly, discussion of this difficult subject has often been hampered by polemical distortions, in which each side has caricatured the position of the other for the purposes of argument.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:41 AM
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Yes, I do

Here's a statement from both sides that offers rational hope to those praying for healing and no doubt sadness to those wishing to keep the angry pot stirring.

The North American Orthodox-Catholic Consultation: (Joint Statement)

Secondly, discussion of this difficult subject has often been hampered by polemical distortions, in which each side has caricatured the position of the other for the purposes of argument.
Who do you fool with this weak rhetoric and arguments? Do you see the OC unite with Catholics with the Nicaea signature condemning them still not resolved? Why do you never talk about this signature (this is the Creed signature)? Do you have a solution for it that these two Churches for 1000 years did not know?
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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=cat_1978;19758942]Who do you fool with this weak rhetoric and arguments?
You mean the statement from the Orthodox and Catholic Churches JOINTLY??

Quote:
Do you see the OC unite with Catholics with the Nicaea signature condemning them still not resolved? Why do you never talk about this signature (this is the Creed signature)? Do you have a solution for it that these two Churches for 1000 years did not know?
All things are possible through Christ (Matt 19:26)

Just glad you aren't in any type leadership position within the Orthodox Church, they made a wise decision to keep you out.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:19 AM
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Just glad you aren't in any type leadership position within the Orthodox Church, they made a wise decision to keep you out.
I did not seek any position in the Orthodox Church beyond layman. Why do you spread falsities? There was no decision on anything concerning me. Do you like to lie? Please lie some more. Let's see how is that gonna affect your relationship with the holy Spirit.

I also see that YOU DO NOT HAVE a solution regarding the signature of Nicaea. So again, useless posts from you. And you are not even Catholic. Just a liar. Ohioman "the liar". Lying about another is natural for you, yes?
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:59 AM
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Canon 7

"When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nica. But those who shall dare to compose a different faith, or to introduce or offer it to persons desiring to turn to the acknowledgment of the truth, whether from Heathenism or from Judaism, or from any heresy whatsoever, shall be deposed...

I find it difficult to reconcile the above statement with the simple addition of the Filioque.

Tempest in a teapot, caused by hubris on both sides, perpetuated by pride on one side.
I love my Orthodox brothers, but their departure from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church as mandated by Jesus, including Primacy of the See of Peter is on them.

Catholics have no problem with acknowledging our many failings over the years, and although it may take time, we address and fix them.

I've yet to see any failings acknowledged by our local EO members. (Of course, they may actually be perfect...)
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:02 AM
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Just look at the presumed power of the church;
Meeting at Nicaea in present-day Turkey, the council established the equality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:06 AM
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I find it difficult to reconcile the above statement with the simple addition of the Filioque.

Tempest in a teapot, caused by hubris on both sides, perpetuated by pride on one side.
I love my Orthodox brothers, but their departure from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church as mandated by Jesus, including Primacy of the See of Peter is on them.

Catholics have no problem with acknowledging our many failings over the years, and although it may take time, we address and fix them.

I've yet to see any failings acknowledged by our local EO members. (Of course, they may actually be perfect...)
This "Tempest in a teapot" broke the UNDIVIDED Church and the 5 seats became 1 seat against 4 seats. You minimizing this will not change facts.

The Seat of Rome (Catholics) initiated the break from the other 4 Seats (the Orthodox) so how can you say we left?

Solution? In your view?
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
I find it difficult to reconcile the above statement with the simple addition of the Filioque.

Tempest in a teapot, caused by hubris on both sides, perpetuated by pride on one side.
I love my Orthodox brothers, but their departure from the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church as mandated by Jesus, including Primacy of the See of Peter is on them.
Woah! I stand with the EOC on this one, regarding both the invalid addition of the Filioque and the usurpation of the council authority through the Bishop of Rome alone.

The idea that Peter is primacy mandated by Jesus is a stretch based on Scripture. I suppose this is what to expect when so much is metaphorical, extrapolating a poetic base is not the best foundation to literally build.
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