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Old 09-01-2019, 11:30 PM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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Actually, science has progressed well in most nations. The Christians did not discover medicine, or work out the Pythagorean theory, or be the first to invent writing, etc
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Old 09-01-2019, 11:33 PM
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Christians founded the first hospitals, established the first universities, and discovered the scientific method.
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Old 09-02-2019, 07:41 AM
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Actually, science has progressed well in most nations. The Christians did not discover medicine, or work out the Pythagorean theory, or be the first to invent writing, etc
Give me a break! Discover medicine or the 1st to invent writing? THAT PROVES MY POINT!!! In the 1,000's of years since, it was Christian countries of the West who made civilization as we know it.
  1. Who invented cars?
  2. Who invented radio?
  3. Who invented TV?
  4. Who invented computers?
  5. Who invented mobile phones?
  6. Who invented the internet?
  7. >90% of all inventions patented were in the West, in general, and America, in particular.
  8. Who figured out rocket science and launched ships to space?
  9. Who first launched satellites?
  10. Who explored the world? Discovered the New World? Circumnavigated the world?
  11. Who found the source of the Nile?(HINT: Not local cultures.)
  12. Who was the first to climb Mt Everest? (HINT: Not local cultures.)
  13. Who split the atom & unleashed all the power for defeating tyrants and medical applications?
  14. Who discovered radioactivity?
  15. Who discovered X-rays, so helpful in medical diagnosis?
  16. Who invented vaccines for polio, small pox and discovered germ theory?
  17. Who discovered penicillin and anesthesia, making surgery no longer a horribly tortuous death sentence?
  18. Who came up with capitalism, the greatest invention of material wealth ever conceived?
  19. Who figured out the laws of motion, light and discovered calculus?
  20. Who discovered how to make rubber & oil useful? Driving the economic engine of the world?
The answer to ALL these questions is Christians & people from Christian cultures and nations that promoted education and science so far beyond other cultures, you have to go back 1,000's of years to when other cultures made a dent in the development of human civilization. Praise God!

Multiculturalism? All cultures are equal? Yea, when you ignore ALL measurable data, assert theories that cannot hold up to the most superficial scutiny, sure.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:45 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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And who was the first to invent surgery that worked?
And who was the first to devise sanitation good enough for a culture to build and live in huge cities?
And who was the first to develop forensics? (the Chinese nations had it before the Christian nations did)
Etc.

My field is medicine, not mechanics. I cannot list which people did what mechanical invention. I CAN tell you that while the Christian countries have made great strides with machines, that our non-mechanical accomplishments were very often based on the discoveries of the non-Christian countries. Medicine was most DEFINITELY based on the discoveries and accomplishments of non-Christian countries.

And, so was the concept of democracy, as everybody knows. That was a Greek concept: we only refined it

Every nation has had something to add to the knowledge of mankind. MAchinery is not my field, and I accept that the Christian nations have done better with it, but mechanical knowledge is not the only field of scientific study
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:01 AM
PurpleKitty PurpleKitty is offline
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((((Hugs)))) Atticus. I respect your faith, I was just burned pretty bad. You could always get a medical alert bracelet and put that you are Catholic on it. I need to do that with my medical condition but something always comes up.

A funny story, my husband grew up pretty rough in an ugly family situation in a very small, poor, household. They were Catholic and that was the reason given why they would never divorce even though both parents were miserable.

My husband, like a lot of bright teenagers, had some questions and the priest was not open to answering them. An example, he wanted to bring "Jesus Christ, Superstar" record to Sunday school class and discuss the fact that the sanhedrin murdered Jesus as a political move.

https://youtu.be/lN4TxOd9I8Q

The priest went nuts, shouting at him. Forbade him. My husband was so disgusted he became an atheist for quite a while.

Then he met a born again believer who challenged him to read the Bible. He did, became saved. This was very important to me when we were dating, that he be a believer.

Fast forward about 20 years, he's been run over and has been in a coma for weeks. He wakes up. His mother "Do you want the priest?"

"Oh, that would be GREAT!"



He became a born again Catholic for about 2 weeks there and I'm thinking I'm not going to help him with this... then he remembered and started refusing the visits.

But it was funny how he went back to his roots for a little bit.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:25 AM
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And, so was the concept of democracy, as everybody knows. That was a Greek concept: we only refined it
BS. America is not and never was a democracy. We did not embrace or 'revise' that form of tyranny. See Article IV, Section 4 of US Constitution See FF quotes against democracy.


“Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths -Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would at the same time be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.”

James Madison, Federalist No. 10, “The Utility of the Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection,” Daily Advertiser, November 22, 1787
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:42 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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BS. America is not and never was a democracy. We did not embrace or 'revise' that form of tyranny.
You do not regard our republic as being based on a democracy? I do.

In my opinion, our republic was BASED ON 1. the democracy of the Greeks, 2. the Articles of Confederation of the Iroquois confederation, and 3. the ingenuity of the Americans. We may have to agree to disagree on what "based on" means.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kansas Terri View Post
And who was the first to invent surgery that worked?
And who was the first to devise sanitation good enough for a culture to build and live in huge cities?
And who was the first to develop forensics? (the Chinese nations had it before the Christian nations did)
Etc.

My field is medicine, not mechanics. I cannot list which people did what mechanical invention. I CAN tell you that while the Christian countries have made great strides with machines, that our non-mechanical accomplishments were very often based on the discoveries of the non-Christian countries. Medicine was most DEFINITELY based on the discoveries and accomplishments of non-Christian countries.

And, so was the concept of democracy, as everybody knows. That was a Greek concept: we only refined it

Every nation has had something to add to the knowledge of mankind. MAchinery is not my field, and I accept that the Christian nations have done better with it, but mechanical knowledge is not the only field of scientific study
Hi KT. Could you point us to a study or a link to the non-Christian peoples that did invent all of those things you are claiming. I'd be interested.

Also, I do have to agree with PeterEnergy. America is a Republic ... not a Democracy. True Democracies are also called "Mob-acracies." A Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:03 AM
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ActionJackson, in the past when the subject came up I have pointed out sources and archaeological discoveries and it did not matter.

So, this time I will suggest that you do online research of the Iroquois Articles of Confederation, scalpels made of obsidian (Medieval metal could not hold a sharp enough edge: we do better now), Ancient Muslim archaeology (I am not sure, I think that developed at the same time we were building our cathedrals), Roman aqueducts, the origin of concrete, Damascus steel, etc.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:13 AM
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[COLOR="Blue"][B]The answer to ALL these questions is Christians & people from Christian cultures and nations...
Most of those were accomplished by Christian people, but the culture predates Christianity.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:21 AM
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The Bible says to ask God for your sins to be forgiven, and Protestants do so in prayer, but Catholics confess to the priest who, I assume, acts as a mediator.
Just Curious what verse are you referring to that says to pray to God to have your sins forgiven.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

John20:22-23
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:27 AM
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You do not regard our republic as being based on a democracy? I do.



In my opinion, our republic was BASED ON 1. the democracy of the Greeks, 2. the Articles of Confederation of the Iroquois confederation, and 3. the ingenuity of the Americans. We may have to agree to disagree on what "based on" means.
KT,

I thank you for mentioning the Iroquois, however one could also say that our republic is based upon the same structure that exists within the Presbyterian Church.

Each Presbyterian congregation has (ideally) 2 governing boards: one of elders and another of deacons. These correspond to our 2 houses of Congress.

Also, each congregation sends at least one elder to a meeting of Presbytery, which represents a geographic region. These representatives, called commissioners or presbyters, vote on various issues which affect the congregations within a Presbytery.

So, you can see how the structure of the Presbyterian Church is a representative form of church government, just as our civil government is also representative.

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Old 09-02-2019, 10:34 AM
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The Bible says to ask God for your sins to be forgiven
Therefore confess your sins to one another (James 5:16)
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but Catholics confess to the priest
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20:21-23)
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And, Catholics routinely study Catholic opinions as well as the Bible, while Protestants mostly just study the Bible. I think that opinions are like bellybuttons: we all have them but when I wish to study about God and Jesus I would far rather read the Bible than a strangers interpretation of the Bible. I might sometimes ask for understanding, but, I see no benefit in studying opinions as well as the Bible
But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert road. And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. (Acts 8:26-31)
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:43 AM
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Although I am not a protestant, I feel that I must address why I am not Catholic. First I will cite Occam's razor;
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exists two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.
The wrong assumption that Y'shua came to establish a new religion, a mystery religion at that, requires a litany of additional assumptions and explanations. In addition that first wrong assumption thoroughly alienated the Jews.

As if that weren't enough the supposed new religion had councils and men sitting on thrones that could keep morphing the religion to suit their imaginations. Yeshua's simple message of the Kingdom and a yoke that is easy to bear became yet another set of rules to replace His commands.

I am not going to enter into a heated debate over this and cause further alienation. I would just ask that seekers think for themselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Consider why a channel or website called Catholic Answers is even needed. It is an attempt to explain the litany of assumptions and traditions when minds begin to inquire or stray.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kansas Terri View Post
ActionJackson, in the past when the subject came up I have pointed out sources and archaeological discoveries and it did not matter.

So, this time I will suggest that you do online research of the Iroquois Articles of Confederation, scalpels made of obsidian (Medieval metal could not hold a sharp enough edge: we do better now), Ancient Muslim archaeology (I am not sure, I think that developed at the same time we were building our cathedrals), Roman aqueducts, the origin of concrete, Damascus steel, etc.
I don't doubt that many cultures have used various forms of surgical tools or various forms of healing the sick or agricultural methods and/or other helpful inventions. I'm just questioning the claim that others were "the first" or that they invented certain things prior to Christians. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just looking for the evidence that proves you are correct.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:58 AM
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((((Hugs)))) Atticus. I respect your faith, I was just burned pretty bad. You could always get a medical alert bracelet and put that you are Catholic on it. I need to do that with my medical condition but something always comes up.

A funny story, my husband grew up pretty rough in an ugly family situation in a very small, poor, household. They were Catholic and that was the reason given why they would never divorce even though both parents were miserable.

My husband, like a lot of bright teenagers, had some questions and the priest was not open to answering them. An example, he wanted to bring "Jesus Christ, Superstar" record to Sunday school class and discuss the fact that the sanhedrin murdered Jesus as a political move.

https://youtu.be/lN4TxOd9I8Q

The priest went nuts, shouting at him. Forbade him. My husband was so disgusted he became an atheist for quite a while.

Then he met a born again believer who challenged him to read the Bible. He did, became saved. This was very important to me when we were dating, that he be a believer.

Fast forward about 20 years, he's been run over and has been in a coma for weeks. He wakes up. His mother "Do you want the priest?"

"Oh, that would be GREAT!"



He became a born again Catholic for about 2 weeks there and I'm thinking I'm not going to help him with this... then he remembered and started refusing the visits.

But it was funny how he went back to his roots for a little bit.
It's really too bad that priest yelled at your husband for bringing in a record. I love Jesus Christ Superstar. It's one of my favorite albums, and I think has some good things to say. Not everyone agrees of course. But my family were musicians.

I hear of a lot of people leaving their church (not just catholics) because of a bad minister or priest. My grandfather left the Presbyterian church because the pastor told him he was going to Hell because he smoked a pipe. It is really damaging when they act that way. For the record, I haven't seen one that volatile. Most that I've seen are friendly at least.

One other thought, my wife has a cousin who has severe Autism. He is in a group home, and is Jewish. One day when they were having a meal, he started saying the Jewish prayers - in Hebrew. They were pretty amazed. We are made for God. I guess that's why some things in us run deep.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:10 AM
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Although I am not a protestant, I feel that I must address why I am not Catholic. First I will cite Occam's razor;
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exists two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.
The wrong assumption that Y'shua came to establish a new religion, a mystery religion at that,
Articulate that alleged wrong assumption with a citation of Catholic doctrine. Also, explain why your rendition of Ockham's razor is necessarily a default position here.

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requires a litany of additional assumptions
What are those assumptions?
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Although I am not a protestant, I feel that I must address why I am not Catholic. First I will cite Occam's razor;
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exists two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.
The wrong assumption that Y'shua came to establish a new religion, a mystery religion at that, requires a litany of additional assumptions and explanations. In addition that first wrong assumption thoroughly alienated the Jews.

As if that weren't enough the supposed new religion had councils and men sitting on thrones that could keep morphing the religion to suit their imaginations. Yeshua's simple message of the Kingdom and a yoke that is easy to bear became yet another set of rules to replace His commands.

I am not going to enter into a heated debate over this and cause further alienation. I would just ask that seekers think for themselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Consider why a channel or website called Catholic Answers is even needed. It is an attempt to explain the litany of assumptions and traditions when minds begin to inquire or stray.
The Catholic Faith is easy to learn. Once you receive the sacraments of baptism and Confirmation it becomes even easier to understand. His yoke is easy. You just have to seek, and open your heart.

Catholic Answers was started by Tim Staples. He was attending a catholic parish down south, which was across the street from a Fundamentalist church. Every time he came out of Mass, he found flyers on his windshield attacking the Catholic Faith and urging people to join the Fundamentalist church. People knew Tim was a good writer, and they urged him to write his own flyers and put them on the cars of the Fundamentalists. He did, and he called these flyers, "Catholic Answers."

Eventually he collected the writings into books, and then started the website. It was the first site I stumbled across when I first wanted to know what the Catholic Church taught about a certain issue.

Using your example of Occam's razor, I would point out that many of the Catholic explanations for the Faith are simpler than the Protestant explanations.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:17 AM
Kansas Terri Kansas Terri is offline
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I don't doubt that many cultures have used various forms of surgical tools or various forms of healing the sick or agricultural methods and/or other helpful inventions. I'm just questioning the claim that others were "the first" or that they invented certain things prior to Christians. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just looking for the evidence that proves you are correct.
If it was invented before the year 0, then it predates Christianity. If it was invented at a time or a place that had no contact with Christianity until later, then it was not an invention of a Christian nation.

And I say it again: EVERY time I have provided sources in the past, the one unvarying response was "That CAN'T be right", and no matter if there was archaeological proof.

Please google any of the starting points that I have given, and please make up your own mind
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:59 PM
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The wrong assumption that Y'shua came to establish a new religion, a mystery religion at that, requires a litany of additional assumptions and explanations. In addition that first wrong assumption thoroughly alienated the Jews.
Just for the record, can you list these assumptions, especially the 1st assumption that thoroughly alienated the Jews?

Maybe it is clear to you but I'm a little lost in what you are referring to.

In broad strokes, I see the story as the OT brought the law while the NT brought grace. Them the Catholics instituted their own laws called traditions AS IF we were no longer under grace. The best example is Romans 2:11, God has no favorites, while the Catholics have a military stylized hierarchy of priests, head priests, bishops, cardinals and then the top dog who is closest to God of all the peoples on Earth - who even takes on God-like qualities of being infallible.
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