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Old 09-08-2019, 07:42 PM
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Oh yeah. When is concerning Peter's beliefs you are ALL wasting your time here. Didn't you notice how he hides his true beliefs and gives you some truth drop by drop and only when he is hot enough to make mistakes (that is MY method, to make someone hot ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM TELLING ME THE TRUTH)? Now you can clearly see that Peter does not believe ANYTHING from the Bible and in fact he might be an atheist playing with you guys. The only reason he is in this forum is because he lies that he is not an atheist.
The thought has crossed my mind. I can sort of judge him by his posts but I can't judge his heart. He may or may not be seeking the truth but I have to assume that he wouldn't spend so much time in this section of the forum unless something (or Someone?) was pushing him in this direction. But even if he's here to sabotage and be the devil's advocate perhaps the seeds of truth will find a small section of fertile soil and take root. I'm not wise enough to know.
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:33 PM
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Oh yeah. When is concerning Peter's beliefs you are ALL wasting your time here. Didn't you notice how he hides his true beliefs and gives you some truth drop by drop and only when he is hot enough to make mistakes (that is MY method, to make someone hot ENOUGH TO MAKE HIM TELLING ME THE TRUTH)? Now you can clearly see that Peter does not believe ANYTHING from the Bible and in fact he might be an atheist playing with you guys. The only reason he is in this forum is because he lies that he is not an atheist.
You are so insecure! Just because I accept the fact of evolution does not mean I don't believe in God.

There is a great book about why science progressed in the West and not in Africa, Middle East or China. And the reason is the blasphemous statement Jesus made, "Good is good."

Muslims, for instance, consider this tying the hands of the almighty. Consequence, they believe there is no point studying nature for it is unknowable. In the West, believing God is good, we believe nature and nature's laws reflect this goodnesses of God and that includes being able to understand it. Consequently, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Pastor, Lister, Salk, Einstein, etc, etc, etc. This men did not consider learning the secrets of the universe was arrogant but a means to get us closer to understand the mind of God.

Praise God! Thank you Jesus!
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:51 PM
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My OWN stance on this issue is this,
Abraham had a promise from God, "Those who bless you I will bless, those who curse you I will curse."
Their relationship with God is their business, the blessings and cursing still stand regardless.
My judgments are not God's judgments for a people that test His love for them.
As Christians, we know our selves that without God's mercy, and Jesus sacrifice, we have nothing to stand on. Our failures are many. God does not need a microscope, He sees us through and through.
Most of the churches I have attended around the nation support the Jew in general, In particular, Jesus Christ who came from Jewish descent. Though they do not recognize who He is, We do. Not by historical religion but By the Holy Spirit, Jesus provided from God to teach in His place. Not a religion but a relationship.
Though men had made a religion in noble ignorance 100 years later, God can still teach a man hungry to Know Him, if Jesus is given lordship. This is the strength of Christianity, not the bible.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:36 AM
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If you don't believe that Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Seth, etc. are not real then you can't believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Jesus are real either. That being the case, then we not only disagree but we're in totally different realms and we're wasting each others' time.

I think we need to understand why the Bible manuscripts were written. They weren't written for America today. They were written for the people of Israel to keep them together all worshiping the one god, YHWH. Even most college level Biblical scholars agree that some characters were fictional and some were actual but their characteristics were expanded or exagerated to show a point. The Bible is also not meant to be an historical document. Some books, such as Isaiah, have more than one author. In the New Testament there are several books not written by the men whose names are on the books. By claiming that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then which version or translation is the closest to the original. There is no way we can know, but this impossibility in no way diminishes the power and spiritual development one can obtain by reading this book. There is so much more to learn from its pages that using characters to try to prove it to be inerrant in all ways. We need to understand the non-believers as well as believers of ancient times. We need to know their customs, language. We often want to judge their actions like we do now. Their definitions of what we think of as common, are so different from ours.

There are many stories from previous civilizations that were copied into Bible manuscripts, a fact which current Bible historians can attest to. The book I am currently reading, "The Meaning of the Bible", a 400-page book written by an orthodox Jew and a strong Christian, both professors of religion at Vanderbilt University, teaches me that a student could study the pages of the Bible, through its many versions, all his life and never understand all of it. But the bottom line is that since we have no original manuscripts, and unless some miraculous discovery gives us the original manuscripts, we cannot know exactly what the authors said. But we can use the writings we have to further enrich our lives with the spiritual power it contains, and isn't that what we really want?
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:55 AM
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I think we need to understand why the Bible manuscripts were written. They weren't written for America today. They were written for the people of Israel to keep them together all worshiping the one god, YHWH. Even most college level Biblical scholars agree that some characters were fictional and some were actual but their characteristics were expanded or exagerated to show a point. The Bible is also not meant to be an historical document. Some books, such as Isaiah, have more than one author. In the New Testament there are several books not written by the men whose names are on the books. By claiming that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then which version or translation is the closest to the original. There is no way we can know, but this impossibility in no way diminishes the power and spiritual development one can obtain by reading this book. There is so much more to learn from its pages that using characters to try to prove it to be inerrant in all ways. We need to understand the non-believers as well as believers of ancient times. We need to know their customs, language. We often want to judge their actions like we do now. Their definitions of what we think of as common, are so different from ours.

There are many stories from previous civilizations that were copied into Bible manuscripts, a fact which current Bible historians can attest to. The book I am currently reading, "The Meaning of the Bible", a 400-page book written by an orthodox Jew and a strong Christian, both professors of religion at Vanderbilt University, teaches me that a student could study the pages of the Bible, through its many versions, all his life and never understand all of it. But the bottom line is that since we have no original manuscripts, and unless some miraculous discovery gives us the original manuscripts, we cannot know exactly what the authors said. But we can use the writings we have to further enrich our lives with the spiritual power it contains, and isn't that what we really want?
The Bible is written to all who seek God. Adam wasn't an Israelite. Noah wasn't an Israelite. Abraham wasn't an Israelite. The main purpose of the Bible is to guide the reader towards Jesus Christ and salvation.

I can think of no fictional Bible characters. But even if there is one hidden somewhere in the Bible, Adam wasn't one of them. He is listed in Jesus Christ's literal genealogy as a blood relative. He's described in both the OT and the NT as "the first man."
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:12 AM
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The Bible is written to all who seek God. Adam wasn't an Israelite.
Genesis was written by Moses, who was a Jew.

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I can think of no fictional Bible characters.
Parables are fictional stories. All characters in all parables are fictional.

Job is the oldest book of the Bible and is understood to be a book of wisdom, which means fictional.

I think you are confusing fictional with value-less. I love the story of the Prodigal Son. From The Wisdom Books
The strongest personification in the Bible is Woman Wisdom, and she speaks somewhat mysteriously in divine accents about her origins and identity. Her appeal to humanity is sounded in several books: Prv 8; Sir 24; Wis 7–9; Bar 3:9–4:4. She offers “life” to her followers (Prv 8:35, “whoever finds me finds life”). This image of personified Wisdom is reflected in the Logos poem of Jn 1:1–18 and in Paul’s reference to Jesus as “the wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24, 30). The bearing of wisdom literature on the New Testament is also exemplified in the sayings and parables of Jesus and in the practical admonitions in the Letter of James.

The Book of Job, named after its protagonist (apparently not an Israelite; cf. Ez 14:14, 20), is an exquisite dramatic treatment of the problem of the suffering of the innocent. The contents of the book, together with its artistic structure and elegant style, place it among the literary masterpieces of all time. This is a literary composition, and not a transcript of historical events and conversations.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:13 AM
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The Bible is written to all who seek God. Adam wasn't an Israelite. Noah wasn't an Israelite. Abraham wasn't an Israelite. The main purpose of the Bible is to guide the reader towards Jesus Christ and salvation.

I can think of no fictional Bible characters. But even if there is one hidden somewhere in the Bible, Adam wasn't one of them. He is listed in Jesus Christ's literal genealogy as a blood relative. He's described in both the OT and the NT as "the first man."

You definitely must be the number one Bible scholar in the world. But most scholars would disagree with you. You are correct about Adam not being an Israelite. That is because he is a story as is the Flood. And the Old Testament or rather the most correct--the Hebrew Scriptures don't even mention Jesus.

As a side note, a New Testament professor at U. of N.C., Chapel Hill, writes "I sometimes begin my classes on the New Testament at Chapel Hill by talking about an individual we know about from about 2000 years ago, who was a remarkable person. Even before he was born, his mother had a visitor from Heaven telling her that her son wasn't going to be a normal human being, he was going to be the Son of God. His birth was attended by supernatural signs. As a child he showed himself to be quite a prodigy, impressing the religious leaders of his own day. As an adult, he left home and engaged in an itinerant preaching ministry in which he went from village to town trying to convince people that they could give up on the spiritual things of this world and simply be concerned about the spiritual things of life. He acquired a number of followers who became convinced that he wasn't a mortal--that he was divine. And he did miracles to help them believe what they believed about him. He was able to heal the sick and cast out demons and raise the dead. At the end of his life, his enemies decided to bring him up on charges before the Roman authorities before whom he appeared. But even after he left this world, his followers continued to believe in him. Some claim that they saw him alive after he had ascended to Heaven---that he appeared to them to convince them that there is a life after this death. Some of them later wrote books about him.....I've been referring to Appollonius of Tyana, a pagan philosopher [And the word pagan didn't mean in ancient times what it does now.], a worshiper of the Greek gods. Appollonius of Tyana lived at about the same time as Jesus---the 1st century of the Common Era. His followers believed that he was the son of God. They knew about Jesus. They thought that Jesus was a magician and that he practiced magic and that he was a hoax." Interesting history, but history cannot be compared to theological belief.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:50 PM
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=PeterEnergy;19764396]Genesis was written by Moses, who was a Jew.
Moses was of the tribe of Levi ... not Judah. Levi was the tribe of priests and Moses and his brother Aaron were priests. Judah, later, became the tribe of kings.


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Parables are fictional stories. All characters in all parables are fictional.
Parables are not necessarily fictional stories. They are designed to amplify a deep truth. Satan is a real being but he is often referred to as a "serpent" to amplify his true nature. Christ's Word is often times referred to as a "seed" that may or may not take root and grow. Parables bring out deeper meanings.

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Job is the oldest book of the Bible and is understood to be a book of wisdom, which means fictional.
Job is a real person who had real faith. He is mentioned in the New Testament: James 5:11, "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."

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I think you are confusing fictional with value-less. I love the story of the Prodigal Son. From The Wisdom Books
The strongest personification in the Bible is Woman Wisdom, and she speaks somewhat mysteriously in divine accents about her origins and identity. Her appeal to humanity is sounded in several books: Prv 8; Sir 24; Wis 7–9; Bar 3:9–4:4. She offers “life” to her followers (Prv 8:35, “whoever finds me finds life”). This image of personified Wisdom is reflected in the Logos poem of Jn 1:1–18 and in Paul’s reference to Jesus as “the wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24, 30). The bearing of wisdom literature on the New Testament is also exemplified in the sayings and parables of Jesus and in the practical admonitions in the Letter of James.


God uses many methods to get His Word out there. Sometimes it's direct and to the point while other times it's more subtle. God uses allegory, simile, metaphor, song, and poem.

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The Book of Job, named after its protagonist (apparently not an Israelite; cf. Ez 14:14, 20), is an exquisite dramatic treatment of the problem of the suffering of the innocent. The contents of the book, together with its artistic structure and elegant style, place it among the literary masterpieces of all time. This is a literary composition, and not a transcript of historical events and conversations.
Job is the story of a man who remained faithful to God even in the most trying and difficult circumstances. He was literally tempted by the fallen angel, Satan, but only with God's permission. He was a real man with a real family with real belongings with real trials and, most importantly, with real faith.https://www.gotquestions.org/life-Job.html
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:09 PM
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Moses was of the tribe of Levi
A Levi is not a subset of Jews? I guess I always used the word Jew to be equivalent to Hebrew. Seems like you are parsing it somehow. You do agree that a Levi is a Hebrew, right? That Moses was Hebrew, right?

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Parables are not necessarily fictional stories.
We just covered this in my Bible study. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/parable
noun
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.
Parables are fictional stories - by definition.

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Job is a real person who had real faith.
LOL I'll take the link I provided - and my Study Bibles of Job being a poetic book of wisdom - over your baseless assertion that the character is a real person.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:11 PM
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As a side note, a New Testament professor at U. of N.C., Chapel Hill, writes "I sometimes begin my classes on the New Testament at Chapel Hill by talking about an individual we know about from about 2000 years ago, who was a remarkable person. Even before he was born, his mother had a visitor from Heaven telling her that her son wasn't going to be a normal human being, he was going to be the Son of God. His birth was attended by supernatural signs. As a child he showed himself to be quite a prodigy, impressing the religious leaders of his own day. As an adult, he left home and engaged in an itinerant preaching ministry in which he went from village to town trying to convince people that they could give up on the spiritual things of this world and simply be concerned about the spiritual things of life. He acquired a number of followers who became convinced that he wasn't a mortal--that he was divine. And he did miracles to help them believe what they believed about him. He was able to heal the sick and cast out demons and raise the dead. At the end of his life, his enemies decided to bring him up on charges before the Roman authorities before whom he appeared. But even after he left this world, his followers continued to believe in him. Some claim that they saw him alive after he had ascended to Heaven---that he appeared to them to convince them that there is a life after this death. Some of them later wrote books about him.....I've been referring to Appollonius of Tyana, a pagan philosopher [And the word pagan didn't mean in ancient times what it does now.], a worshiper of the Greek gods.
Somewhat goes against the often cited claim that there is no other story like Jesus.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:40 PM
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=PeterEnergy;19765220]A Levi is not a subset of Jews? I guess I always used the word Jew to be equivalent to Hebrew. Seems like you are parsing it somehow. You do agree that a Levi is a Hebrew, right? That Moses was Hebrew, right?
A Semite is named after Shem. A Hebrew is named after Heber. Shem was one of Noah's sons and was Heber's (Eber's) great grandfather. So any of Shem's posterity can be called "Semites." Any of Heber's posterity can be called Semites and Hebrews. So Abraham was both a Semite and a Hebrew. He had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael is the father of the Arabic nations so all Arabs are Semitic and Hebraic. Isaac is the father of Jacob who's name was changed to Israel. Israel had 12 sons (the twelves tribes of Israel). One of those tribes was named Judah (Jew) but the other 11 went by other names so they are NOT Jews. So a Jew is a Semite and a Hebrew but the other 11 tribes are NOT Jews. Those of the tribe of Levi are "Levites." All 12 tribes are Semites. All 12 tribes are Hebrews. Only the tribe of Judah (and later, Benjamin) can be called "Jews."

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We just covered this in my Bible study. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/parable
noun
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.
Parables are fictional stories - by definition.
From the Strong's Concordance:
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a placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition, as of ships in battle

metaph.

a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude

an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated

a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life, by which either the duties of men or the things of God, particularly the nature and history of God's kingdom are figuratively portrayed

a parable: an earthly story with a heavenly meaning

a pithy and instructive saying, involving some likeness or comparison and having preceptive or admonitory force

an aphorism, a maxim

a proverb

an act by which one exposes himself or his possessions to danger, a venture, a risk
Not all parables are "fictitious." Your study leader is misleading you. Don't let others think for you.


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LOL I'll take the link I provided - and my Study Bibles of Job being a poetic book of wisdom - over your baseless assertion that the character is a real person.
The New Testament refers to Job as an actual person. If the NT is "baseless" then so is the entire Bible. Note to self: The NT is NOT baseless.
From "Got Questions": https://www.gotquestions.org/life-Job.html
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:09 PM
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Not all parables are "fictitious." Your study leader is misleading you. Don't let others think for you.
Yes, ALL parables are fictitious - by definition. I already provided the authoritative reference. It's pretty bad when you are arguing definitions. It is not my study leader but the dictionary that is informing me.

And your reference to Strong's Concordance does not contradict it one bit. However, from https://biblehub.com/greek/3850.htm
3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. This casts additional light by using an arresting or familiar analogy, (which is often fictitious or metaphorical, but not necessarily).
Here, Strong's allows for the possibility of non-fictitious parables BUT admits most are fictitious. You have turned this into ALL parables are real and none are fictitious. You cannot provide one link to support the claim that ALL parables are real and not fictitious!

Here is another authoritative reference, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable
parable noun
par·​a·​ble | \ ˈper-ə-bəl , ˈpa-rə-\
Definition of parable
: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

Synonyms
allegory, apologue, fable
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The New Testament refers to Job as an actual person.
AJ, you are being ridiculous! Name one instance where the NT identifies anyone as fictitious? If you cannot name one instance, the NT cannot be an authoritative reference is separating the fictitious from the real. Not even Woman Wisdom is identified as fictitious.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:19 PM
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=PeterEnergy;19765316]Yes, ALL parables are fictitious - by definition. I already provided the authoritative reference. It's pretty bad when you are arguing definitions. It is not my study leader but the dictionary that is informing me.
Satan the serpent is not fictitious. Christ's Word "the seed" is not fictitious. The bread and wine as used in a parable to represent Christ's flesh and blood is not fictitious.

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And your reference to Strong's Concordance does not contradict it one bit. However, from https://biblehub.com/greek/3850.htm
You must not have read the entire definition or only saw what you wanted to see. "3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught."

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3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. This casts additional light by using an arresting or familiar analogy, (which is often fictitious or metaphorical, but not necessarily).
Note the word "often." That means sometimes but not every time. Parables give deeper meanings to realities.

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Here, Strong's allows for the possibility of non-fictitious parables BUT admits most are fictitious. You have turned this into ALL parables are real and none are fictitious. You cannot provide one link to support the claim that ALL parables are real and not fictitious!
Note the word "most" as opposed to "all."

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Here is another authoritative reference, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable[INDENT][COLOR="DarkOrange"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]parable noun
par·​a·​ble | \ ˈper-ə-bəl , ˈpa-rə-\
Definition of parable
: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
Note the word "usually" as opposed to "all the time."

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AJ, you are being ridiculous! Name one instance where the NT identifies anyone as fictitious? If you cannot name one instance, the NT cannot be an authoritative reference is separating the fictitious from the real. Not even Woman Wisdom is identified as fictitious.
The NT used Job in an authoritative manner. Did you read the "Got Questions" link?
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:16 PM
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As a side note, a New Testament professor at U. of N.C., Chapel Hill, writes "I sometimes begin my classes on the New Testament at Chapel Hill
Someone who may be an atheist but is almost guaranteed to be a Democrat.

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I've been referring to Appollonius of Tyana, a pagan philosopher
Who was not executed, and whose "biography", written at the behest of a Roman who paid for it over 100 years after he died has highlights like these:

"If someone says that the Life of Apollonius sounds like one of the New Testament Gospels, perhaps they need to read both again. Consider these selections from the Life:

Reporting Apollonius' birth, Philostratus says that Apollonius' mother had fallen asleep in a meadow, where the swans who lived in the meadow danced around her, then cried aloud, causing her to give birth prematurely. [Ph.LAT, 13]

Apollonius specifically condemns the practice of taking hot baths. (ibid., 47)

Apollonius professes to be able to speak all human languages - without ever having learned them. (ibid., 53)

He also learns to speak the language of birds. (ibid., 57)

He professes to have seen the chains of Prometheus while traveling in the Caucasus mountains. [Mead.ApT, 60]

He and his party encounter a hobgoblin, which they chase away by calling it names. [Ph.LAT., 125]

Apollonius states that captive elephants cry and mourn at night when men are not watching; but when men come around, they stop crying because they are ashamed. (ibid., 145 - this comes as part of a very long section devoted to elephants, which was taken from Juba's History of Libya - Mead.ApT, 60n)

A short paragraph by Philostratus describes different types of dragons. (ibid., 245-7)

Apollonius confronts a satyr and puts it to sleep by offering it wine. (ibid., v. 2, 107-9)

During his trial, Apollonius causes the writing to disappear from the tablets of one of his accusers. [Mead.ApT, 188]


Does any of this sound like what we find in the Gospels? Of course not; the Gospels lack the outrageous and dramatic flair that is found in the story of Apollonius."
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:10 AM
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The owner of building 7? Larry Silverstein -- a "chosen one."
You're grasping brother.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:22 AM
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Yup. The Globalists must destroy the west. Mix incompatible cultures to create chaos and division. Take peoples' minds off of the Globalist agenda by creating local crises. Divide and conquer. These NGOs don't just pluck money off of trees. They're being funded. Follow the money and you find the culprits.

What is a globalist? If you studied such things in the 70's and 80's, the world conspiracy was called the "Illuminati".. No one living then ever heard of the term "globalist". I never did but I was deep into the study of the Illuminati and the CFR, and the Trilateralists, and the Bilderbergs, and the Atlantic Union. Are Globalists the same thing? The Illuminati was made up of democrats AND republicans--the super rich trying to turn us into a one world government. I remember my daughter coming home from high school one day and telling me, "Dad, George H.W. Bush was in a history movie we watch today, and he said the phrase "One World Order"." She and I both knew what that meant. I suppose that in 50 years the globalists will have another name.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:35 AM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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The creation of different breeds is not evolution. A German Shepherd is a dog and a poodle is a dog. Both share canine ancestors. They didn't start out as shrimp then morph into dogs.



Everyone claims that the evidence for evolution is "overwhelming" yet when I read the "evidence" I'm completely underwhelmed. Yawn. Show some real evidence and maybe folks will take it seriously.


Amino acid fluctuations is not "proof of evolution."

You might, if you dare, read "The Greatest Show on Earth", by Richard Dawkins. And then you need to know that the Catholic Church, the world's largest Christian Faith, believes that God got the process of evolution going and that the earth is billions of years old.

If you go to Youtube and find "The Big Questions" with Nicky Campbell, BBC, episode for discussion by biologist/Christian, Jewish Rabbi, orthodox Christians, protestants, atheists, Catholic Priests, Muslims, agnostics, Anglican priests and many others, mostly Christians, "Is it time for all religions to accept evolution?" That will give you an idea just which Christians and other world religions actually believe in evolution.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:03 PM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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Your body = you
Your mind/soul = you
Your spirit = you

Your body, mind, and spirit are all YOU.

But your body is not your mind.
Your mind is not your spirit.
Your spirit is not your body.

As for Adam. You had mentioned that the Creation story as told by Genesis chapter one is metaphor or allegory. So I asked you if you believed that Adam was literally the "first man." Before I continue with any further questions, I'll see if or how you respond to this.


Adam was definitely the first man, but only and this is a big only, we confine our study to only one book which will give us one idea, but if read the many works of various Bible scholars in big Divinity and religious schools at U.S. universities which question. I haven't read of archaeological proof of Adam and Eve. There is none for the Exodus, at least according ro "The Meaning of the Bible an historical commentary written by two believers, professors of religious studies at Vanderbilt University.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:15 PM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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All Scripture? The 73 books of the Catholic Bible? Or the 79 books of the Orthodox Bible? And the Apocrypha?


Many Bible scholars now believe that 1 and 2 Timothy are forgeries, that is, not written by Paul. Just sayin'. There are 7 undisputed Pauline Epistles.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:21 PM
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PeterEnergy PeterEnergy is offline
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Many Bible scholars now believe that 1 and 2 Timothy are forgeries, that is, not written by Paul. Just sayin'. There are 7 undisputed Pauline Epistles.
Well, let's put aside for now the notion that if a book was not written by Paul it is a forgery. I've come to learn many books are not written by the person the book is named after. Some books even detail the death of the primary author, like Moses. There is even some dispute over the author of the epistles of Peter.

You seem to know a lot about the history of Bible. At least, you focus on it more than the theology. In your studies, have you learned that Job is the oldest book of the Bible?

Do you have a list of when the books were written? It is my understanding that many books are not put in chronological order. For instance, in the NT Pauline works are 10-15 years older than Marc, the oldest Gospel.

Getting back to the supposed forgeries of 1 and 2 Timothy, isn't it more important that the Holy Spirit guided the early Church Father's to identify what should be canon - based on the contents - rather than the author?
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