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Old 08-27-2019, 09:26 PM
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Iíve known some Mormons, the ones I knew were clean living, good folk.

I donít know much about their belief system though.
My first wife was Mormon and we stayed with her parents for a few months back when I was around 20. They were very decent people and followed a moral life. I wasn't a Christian at the time. They tried time and again to get me to attend their church but I turned them down every time.

They place the Book of Mormon on par with the Bible. Some may even place it above the Bible. That can't fly with me.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:46 AM
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They place the Book of Mormon on par with the Bible. Some may even place it above the Bible. That can't fly with me.
I've been struggling recently about what constitutes "the Bible" given the Orthodox has 79 books, Catholic has 73 books and Protestant has 66 books. In this light, the Mormons having 67 books seems par for the course.

I have no opinion on the different Apocrypha. However, I am convinced the compiling of what books constitute "the Bible" is mostly political. Do you know why Luther removed 7 books from the Catholic Bible? For that matter, I understand the Jewish Torah does not match up 100% with the Old Testament.

While I believe all the writings in these books are inspired by God to some extent, I now find it naive to suppose the compiling is anything but politically motivated. Imagine the arrogance of the early Christian Church to tell the Jews that they got the books wrong in the Torah? The EOC seem to deny ADDing 6 books to the Catholic Bible.

Can there be any doubt that changing what books constitute "the Bible" is a heretical act?
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:00 AM
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I've been struggling recently about what constitutes "the Bible" given the Orthodox has 79 books, Catholic has 73 books and Protestant has 66 books. In this light, the Mormons having 67 books seems par for the course.

I have no opinion on the different Apocrypha. However, I am convinced the compiling of what books constitute "the Bible" is mostly political. Do you know why Luther removed 7 books from the Catholic Bible? For that matter, I understand the Jewish Torah does not match up 100% with the Old Testament.

While I believe all the writings in these books are inspired by God to some extent, I now find it naive to suppose the compiling is anything but politically motivated. Imagine the arrogance of the early Christian Church to tell the Jews that they got the books wrong in the Torah? The EOC seem to deny ADDing 6 books to the Catholic Bible.

Can there be any doubt that changing what books constitute "the Bible" is a heretical act?
The Mormons add another 3 books to their "canon" of sacred scripture:

Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Beyond that ... I have no idea what is actually written in these books. But having watched Antiques Roadshow for many years, I've seen episodes where very old versions of the above can be worth tens-of-thousands of dollars.

There are some good studies on the Apocrypha and why it was removed. I had a couple of books on the subject in my extensive library until I donated all of my books to a charity. But I think there was concern over the fact that the Apocrypha hadn't been written in Hebrew like the rest of the OT but it's been many years since I read a study on the issue. http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3...244&ItemID=867

Orthodox Judaism places the Talmud above the Old Testament with the possible exception of the first 5 books of the OT, the "Torah" or the "Pentateuch." They also refer to the Zohar, the Mishna, and they're into the Kabbalah. http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

My personal goal as a Christian is to know Christ and His will for my soul. What example did He set and Who is He in relationship to His creation. So, from my perspective, the Apocrypha doesn't add to or take away from my search for God's will in my life. Christ is the door that leads to the Kingdom of God.
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
I've been struggling recently about what constitutes "the Bible" given the Orthodox has 79 books, Catholic has 73 books and Protestant has 66 books. In this light, the Mormons having 67 books seems par for the course.

I have no opinion on the different Apocrypha. However, I am convinced the compiling of what books constitute "the Bible" is mostly political. Do you know why Luther removed 7 books from the Catholic Bible? For that matter, I understand the Jewish Torah does not match up 100% with the Old Testament.

While I believe all the writings in these books are inspired by God to some extent, I now find it naive to suppose the compiling is anything but politically motivated. Imagine the arrogance of the early Christian Church to tell the Jews that they got the books wrong in the Torah? The EOC seem to deny ADDing 6 books to the Catholic Bible.

Can there be any doubt that changing what books constitute "the Bible" is a heretical act?
Iíve thought about that too, maybe not exactly but close.

I decided all an ordinary working God fearing man or woman needs is just a few scriptures and a Pastor to be saved.

Our society is drowning in information and starving for knowledge and truth.

Remember what Samuel told Saul, itís better to obey than sacrifice.

Obey Acts 2:38

Iíve never understood the idea of a monk hiding themselves away from the world and never winning a soul to God.

We are to be Apistles seen and read of all men, not blown about by every wind of false doctrine. But rathe grounded and settled in the doctrine first delivered.

Paul found ďdisciplesĒ at Ephesus in Acts 19, after they obeyed Acts 2:38 they became saints. Notice in his epistle to the Ephesians he greets them as Saints.

Men make living a godly and Holy life complicated, not God.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bill tyler View Post
Iíve thought about that too, maybe not exactly but close.

I decided all an ordinary working God fearing man or woman needs is just a few scriptures and a Pastor to be saved.

Our society is drowning in information and starving for knowledge and truth.

Remember what Samuel told Saul, itís better to obey than sacrifice.

Obey Acts 2:38

Iíve never understood the idea of a monk hiding themselves away from the world and never winning a soul to God.

We are to be Apistles seen and read of all men, not blown about by every wind of false doctrine. But rathe grounded and settled in the doctrine first delivered.

Paul found ďdisciplesĒ at Ephesus in Acts 19, after they obeyed Acts 2:38 they became saints. Notice in his epistle to the Ephesians he greets them as Saints.

Men make living a godly and Holy life complicated, not God.
2 Timothy 3:7, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bill tyler View Post
Our society is drowning in information and starving for knowledge and truth.

Remember what Samuel told Saul, itís better to obey than sacrifice.

Men make living a godly and Holy life complicated, not God.
Excellent post!

Our society is long past information overload! I've unplugged 20 years ago. Now, being very selective of what source of information I get. Too much information at the expense of wisdom.

Living a godly life is simple. It's just not easy. Love recklessly. Be gracious, forgiving, friendly and hard working. There are some who look to find fault in what is said. Example: "The sun is up." Is greeted with, that's wrong half the time. What you say can't be trusted. Hmmm. People are so cynical, they look for how what is said is wrong rather than how what people say has truth in it.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:19 AM
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I’ve never understood the idea of a monk hiding themselves away from the world and never winning a soul to God.
The example and wisdom of certain monks in history had more influence in the life of many people than you think. You simply live in a society that is desacralized over the last 500 years to the point it does not see Grace where Grace appears the most.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:28 PM
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In another thread it was stated "this is not a salvation issue for me."

I believe that is what should be reserved for the term heresy. I believe Jesus died on Wednesday. It may not be what the church teaches but this is not a salvation issue. Is it?
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:10 PM
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Default Why Christianity Must Change or Die by John Shelby Spong

Picked up this used heretical book on Amazon last night. CHAPTER 1 Nicene Creed highlights:
  1. Some points are weak but delivered strong, such as bias in Scripture against women.
  2. Profound point about illness. Quoting a 19th century clergy outraged by vaccinations as man playing God.
  3. He points out that Jesus does not simply say he is God.
  4. 2nd coming was thought to be coming soon
  5. Purpose of creeds is to not to state truth but rule out contending point of view.
  6. Orthodoxy won ancient argument but each generation ought to have it anew
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:08 AM
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The ones I met ALSO carried an extra book or two. The Book of Mormon being one of them. If they only dealt with the necessary 66 books ... I'd give them the time of day.
Every last one of them that I have met carried a 66-book King James Bible and was prepared to prove LDS theology directly from its pages alone.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:17 AM
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Default CH 2: Why Christianity Must Change or Die by John Shelby Spong

HOW WE GOT TO EXILE
  1. Jerusalem was thought to be The City of God, literally dwelling in the temple. In the 6th century BC, most sieges lasted from a few weeks to a few months. Nebuchadnezzar laid seize for 2 years. No army antiquity had ever been this persistent for so small a prize.
  2. The Jews were forced to march from Jerusalem to Babylon. Their idea of God was destroyed, could not worship outside the city or sing the Lord's song in foreign lands. Ps 137.
  3. Science has destroyed the God of old:
  4. Copernicus/Galileo: Destroyed the notion of an Earth centered universe and the idea that man was special. Condemned to death for heresy.
  5. Newton: Discovered the laws of nature, that displaced a conscious being for the cause of what we observe.
  6. Darwin: Revealed we are not slightly lower than angels, as Ps 8 suggests, but just higher than animals.
  7. Although the Christian church resisted Darwin with vigor, the ecclesiastical power of antiquity had already been broken. Their ability to charge Darwin with heresy and execution was a power the church no longer had.
  8. Einstein: Relativity and the notion that the observer affects what is observed, destroyed the notion of absolute, eternal truth.
  9. Freud: Theology is a response to the advent of self-awareness, to address the trauma of self-consciousness. We are not made in God's image. We made God in our image.
  10. If horses had gods, they'd be like horses. The God of antiquity is a tribal, warrior God who controls weather, sickness. It can be no surprise that the Jewish God's foreign policy is pro-Israel. If you belong to another tribe, it's understandable that you'd not like the image of this God.
  11. Science pushed back the frontiers of where God's domain and purpose rested. So, while our need for God remains, the ancient notions no longer fit our understanding of the universe.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:32 AM
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Default CH 3: Why Christianity Must Change or Die by John Shelby Spong

Is atheism the only alternative to theism?
  1. Theism and God are not the same. (Theism is a man-made construct. God is a reality).
  2. The God of Thomas Aquinas looked and acted very much like Thomas Aquinas.
  3. The attributes of we have claimed for God are nothing but human qualities expanded beyond human limits.
  4. Irrational hostility (toward contrary theology) is a symptom of the hysteria that comes from the human need to cope with the shock of mortality and meaninglessness.
  5. Religious truth was protected by a double immunity (direct revelation from God & its recipient being infallible), which prevented debate.
  6. The theistic God has no work to do. The power once assigned to God has been explained in countless other ways. For instance, healers do not go to divinity school.
  7. Another God language is needed.


Do we dare to rouse the Lordís jealousy? Do you think we are stronger than he is?
1 Corinthians 10:22 (NLT)
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Old 08-31-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bill tyler View Post
... Iíve never understood the idea of a monk hiding themselves away from the world and never winning a soul to God ...
From where does this idea come?
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Old 08-31-2019, 04:48 PM
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[*]Science has destroyed the God of old:[*]Copernicus/Galileo: Destroyed the notion of an Earth centered universe and the idea that man was special. Condemned to death for heresy.
Please expand on this if you would.
- How has science destroyed the God of old?
- How has the idea that man was special been destroyed?
- Who was condemned to death for heresy?
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Old 08-31-2019, 04:50 PM
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[*]Religious truth was protected by a double immunity (direct revelation from God & its recipient being infallible), which prevented debate.
Do you believe this to be true? Why?
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Old 08-31-2019, 06:06 PM
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Do you believe this to be true? Why?
Because he is a closed atheist. Isn't that obvious?
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:56 PM
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Because he is a closed atheist. Isn't that obvious?
No, it is not obvious.
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Old 08-31-2019, 10:47 PM
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From my perspective, all sin is equally damnable. We are save by Grace through faith and our sin is washed away by the blood of Christ by his Grace. Gods Grace is far more powerful than any of our sins, and I donít think itís my place to put limits on Gods awesome and abundant Grace.
Yes, Jesus is able to fill in the gaps...
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Old 08-31-2019, 11:04 PM
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From my perspective, all sin is equally damnable.
It seems from a biblical perspective that you are wrong:
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1 John 5:16-17)
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
It seems from a biblical perspective that you are wrong:
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1 John 5:16-17)
Thank you for that!

I never like the Ďwages of sin is deathí to extend to crossing the median on a deserted road while adjusting the radio is deemed as bad as mass murder.

Inadvertent wrong doing is simplify not on the level of deliberate, pre-meditated evil. Thanks again.
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