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Old 08-26-2019, 04:07 PM
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I saw a video recently by the Pastor Steve Cioccolanti, where he used the term "heresy" in a way I had not heard before but really like it and want to share it with SB. He describes heresy as a teaching that could cause one to lose their salvation if acted upon.

The context of this statement was in talking about End Times, one of Steve's particular interests. He not only shares his insights in events to prophecy but what others prominent in the field of Eschatology say. (I do like his easy, soft tone approach to preaching. Sorry but I cannot recall the specific video in question.) He wanted the audience to know that even if the experts opinions on End Times is wrong it is not heresy, it does not put anyone's salvation at risk.

So much theological debate is seen on SB. IMO, none of it is heresy, putting anyone's salvation at risk. I was somewhat horrified when another poster asserted the formula, Christians don't do X. Former Christians do. This implies,
X = Heresy, a teaching that could cause one to lose their salvation if acted upon.

Now I know there are some denominations (Baptists) who hold it is impossible to lost ones salvation. However, there seems to be a bit of Circular reasoning in that if said person does X, they never had salvation to begin with.

I wish I could make this a poll but doubt it would work and wanted to get everyone's take on what is a heretical teaching, what action would cause one to lose their salvation? I am aware of only 2 things from Scripture:
  1. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
  2. Failing to Forgive Others

NOTE: For the sake of this thread, let's steer away from what it takes to obtain salvation. I'm only interested in what is heretical teachings as defined above. (Thanks in advance for not being a douche by trolling the thread).
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:29 PM
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From my perspective, all sin is equally damnable. We are save by Grace through faith and our sin is washed away by the blood of Christ by his Grace. Gods Grace is far more powerful than any of our sins, and I donít think itís my place to put limits on Gods awesome and abundant Grace.
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:38 PM
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Who gets to determine whether a teaching causes one to lose their salvation? We already had this happen one time in history... it was a dark time.
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:59 PM
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heresy as a teaching that could cause one to lose their salvation if acted upon.
i think the key word is could.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:30 PM
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I can't help but lean towards the Baptist belief that if someone is truly saved that he/she is a new creature in Christ and has "put off the old man" and put on the new. We're always going to be a sinner so sinning won't take away salvation because we can never be perfect.

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

To be "a new creature" one must be "born again." To be born again is to be awakened to the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God in the flesh. This is not a physical birth but a spiritual one.

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

But does this inner change mean that a person can't return to his old self? We're certainly frail enough to do so. We're certainly selfish enough to do so. I certainly wouldn't want to use my "spiritual birth" as a "get out of jail free card" which gives me the right to just sin at will. We're still called to repent of our sins even though we know we can't reach perfection on our own.

So I think it wise to keep the following passage in mind. It seems to indicate that people CAN return to their old ways:

2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Peter indicates that a person could very well lose his salvation and things would be even worse for that person than they were before they accepted Christ.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:44 PM
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I can't help but lean towards the Baptist belief that if someone is truly saved that he/she is a new creature in Christ and has "put off the old man" and put on the new.
Although this is a bit of an aside, you do not subscribe to progressive sanctification?

I look at it like this. Being saved is a matter of repenting and facing your maker. You could be really holy but fail to repent. I could be a real SOB in all kinds of ways but I repent. Although my orientation is better than yours, my location is MUCH further away from God than you are. It will take me a long time to built the habits of character of obeying God properly (progressive sanctification).

Your refusal to repent is so close - but no cigar. While you were saved, for unclear reasons, you have turned your back on your Savior. While far better off than you were to start, your orientation, refusal to admit to yourself perhaps, that you have something to repent for, needing some purgatory.


13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire. 14 If a man’s work stands the test of fire, he will be rewarded. 15 If a man’s work is consumed by the fire, his reward will be lost but he will be spared, rescued from the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (VOICE)
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:26 PM
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=PeterEnergy;19737864]Although this is a bit of an aside, you do not subscribe to progressive sanctification?
I do subscribe to progressive sanctification but I think we reach plateaus where growth seems to cease at a certain point. Perhaps it picks up again as we age and take note of our mortality. But OhioMan touched on it earlier when he said that blessings seem to pour all over us when we first accept Christ but as time goes on, it seems that we're hit with reality and our enthusiasm seems to wane. Perhaps I'm just speaking for myself.

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I look at it like this. Being saved is a matter of repenting and facing your maker. You could be really holy but fail to repent. I could be a real SOB in all kinds of ways but I repent. Although my orientation is better than yours, my location is MUCH further away from God than you are. It will take me a long time to built the habits of character of obeying God properly (progressive sanctification).
For me ... repentance has happened in increments. Early on, I repented of some big, glaring sins like my alcoholism and drug use but I retained other sins like smoking cigarettes (that's a sin in my book). I also had trouble giving up my desire for women. I've been married 3 times and lived with women off and on in between marriages even though I was a Christian. I finally repented of that sin about 6 years ago and haven't shared a home with a woman during that time. I gave up smoking about 17 years ago.

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Your refusal to repent is so close - but no cigar. While you were saved, for unclear reasons, you have turned your back on your Savior. While far better off than you were to start, your orientation, refusal to admit to yourself perhaps, that you have something to repent for, needing some purgatory.
There's always more room for more repentance. I could probably consider my complacency as a sin. It's easy to fall into a rut and sort of give up caring about things and people. It's easy to become disgruntled that my life isn't what I wanted it to be or what it could have been. These feelings can open the door to Satan who will encourage my discouragement. Once you entertain his influence and allow him to drag you down ... it becomes difficult to lift yourself back up. Faith can wax and wane and complacency can turn to sloth.

These feelings lead me to believe in the importance of personal fellowship with other Christians. I don't attend a church at this time. I can't seem to find one that doesn't teach some sort of doctrine that I disagree with. But lacking fellowship turns me into a free electron -- un-grounded.
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:41 PM
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These feelings lead me to believe in the importance of personal fellowship with other Christians. I don't attend a church at this time. I can't seem to find one that doesn't teach some sort of doctrine that I disagree with.
Dude! I feel bad for you!! Fellowship is critical, my friend.

I take it as a given I will not find 100% agreement anywhere. What's important to me is a place that is Spirit lead.

What about joining a Bible Study? FYI, the Bible Study I attend is not through the church I go to. They've accepted me fine. (This coming week may challenge that as trinitarianism has reared its ugly head.) For me, I just presume that I do not need to resolve all theological differences with believers. We now go to a church that was Methodist but is now non-denominational. Good luck my friend!
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:45 PM
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Dude! I feel bad for you!! Fellowship is critical, my friend.

I take it as a given I will not find 100% agreement anywhere. What's important to me is a place that is Spirit lead.

What about joining a Bible Study? FYI, the Bible Study I attend is not through the church I go to. They've accepted me fine. (This coming week may challenge that as trinitarianism has reared its ugly head.) For me, I just presume that I do not need to resolve all theological differences with believers. We now go to a church that was Methodist but is now non-denominational. Good luck my friend!
I'm in "limbo" at the moment. I left the Denver area where I lived for 17 years. I'm now in a much smaller city in Utah and I know nobody (so far). It's mostly Mormon country and there's no way I'll attend a Mormon church. If a job doesn't come through soon, I will hop in my truck and head either north, south, east, or west. If by some miracle I DO get a job here (which is what I hope for) I did see a small Baptist church nearby. I don't consider myself a Baptist or any denomination but I'll attend just so I get some fellowship. I simply believe in Christ and the Bible. They're about all I trust at this point.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:00 PM
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I'm in "limbo" at the moment. I left the Denver area where I lived for 17 years. I'm now in a much smaller city in Utah and I know nobody (so far). It's mostly Mormon country and there's no way I'll attend a Mormon church. If a job doesn't come through soon, I will hop in my truck and head either north, south, east, or west. If by some miracle I DO get a job here (which is what I hope for) I did see a small Baptist church nearby. I don't consider myself a Baptist or any denomination but I'll attend just so I get some fellowship. I simply believe in Christ and the Bible. They're about all I trust at this point.
Lots of real churches here in Utah:

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&r...E,lf:1,lf_ui:4

Probably best for you is this one:

https://sppoc.org/
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:17 PM
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I'm in "limbo" at the moment. I left the Denver area where I lived for 17 years. I'm now in a much smaller city in Utah and I know nobody (so far). It's mostly Mormon country and there's no way I'll attend a Mormon church. If a job doesn't come through soon, I will hop in my truck and head either north, south, east, or west. If by some miracle I DO get a job here (which is what I hope for)
I think uncle sam gives money away to people who move to Alaska. I've always wanted to shoot a moose... No moose in Dixieland though...
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:40 PM
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Lots of real churches here in Utah:

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&r...E,lf:1,lf_ui:4

Probably best for you is this one:

https://sppoc.org/
Hey, thanks. Only I'm looking for a Scriptural Church. Non-denominational if possible. But thanks again.
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:41 PM
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I think uncle sam gives money away to people who move to Alaska. I've always wanted to shoot a moose... No moose in Dixieland though...
I've heard that the deer hunting is pretty good around here. I'm hoping to test the rumor.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:04 AM
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I'm in "limbo" at the moment. I left the Denver area where I lived for 17 years. I'm now in a much smaller city in Utah and I know nobody (so far). It's mostly Mormon country and there's no way I'll attend a Mormon church. If a job doesn't come through soon, I will hop in my truck and head either north, south, east, or west. If by some miracle I DO get a job here (which is what I hope for) I did see a small Baptist church nearby. I don't consider myself a Baptist or any denomination but I'll attend just so I get some fellowship. I simply believe in Christ and the Bible. They're about all I trust at this point.
You don't need to attend an LDS church. Their missionaries will come to you. Every last one of them that I have met carried a 66-book King James Bible and was prepared to prove LDS theology directly from its pages alone. I would think you would welcome the challenge, not run from it.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:39 AM
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You don't need to attend an LDS church. Their missionaries will come to you. Every last one of them that I have met carried a 66-book King James Bible and was prepared to prove LDS theology directly from its pages alone. I would think you would welcome the challenge, not run from it.
The ones I met ALSO carried an extra book or two. The Book of Mormon being one of them. If they only dealt with the necessary 66 books ... I'd give them the time of day.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:09 AM
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Then ones I met ALSO carried an extra book or two. The Book of Mormon being one of them. If they only dealt with the necessary 66 books ... I'd give them the time of day.
I started reading The Book of Mormon. Although written in 19th century America, it reads like middle English, KJV-style. I cannot muddle through it. I'll wait for the CEV translation.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:24 AM
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I started reading The Book of Mormon. Although written in 19th century America, it reads like middle English, KJV-style. I cannot muddle through it. I'll wait for the CEV translation.
I love the language of the KJV. I find it almost poetic which adds depth to what I'm reading. Not everyone likes it though. If I had to choose another option, it would probably be the NKJV.

Another thing I like about the KJV is the use of "thou" and "ye." It uses "thou" when speaking to an individual. It uses "ye" when speaking to a group. It helps put the Scriptures into context for me. Newer versions use "you" for individuals and groups.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:14 PM
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Then, thou mayest enjoyeth the The Book Of Mormons.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:44 PM
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Then, thou mayest enjoyeth the The Book Of Mormons.
Nope. I was flipping through the channels Sunday morning and happened upon a Mormon giving a sermon. He was preaching from "the book of Nephi." I remained on the station for less than a minute and moved on.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:26 PM
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I’ve known some Mormons, the ones I knew were clean living, good folk.

I don’t know much about their belief system though.
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