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Old 09-01-2019, 11:56 AM
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Here is in my opinion of one example of "cheating," in a street fight.

You walk out of the bar, and on the way to your car
some guy who you some how slighted challenges you.

This guy has enjoyed a few more than you have,
and after he is laying on the ground, finished,
you kick him in the face, between the legs,
then you take his wallet.

You feel like, you didn't ask for him to hassle you,
you just wanted to go home. Maybe next time
he will leave people alone?

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out
there with drinking problems who make things
hard on the rest of us.

But did you have to kick his teeth out of his face?
Did you have to make sure he lost a testicle when
he was on the ground?
Did you have to steal his wallet so he couldn't pay
his rent, and his wife and little child got evicted?

There is a code of conduct for every aspect of life,
even a street fight.
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Old 09-01-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truck Vet View Post
Here is in my opinion of one example of "cheating," in a street fight.

You walk out of the bar, and on the way to your car
some guy who you some how slighted challenges you.

This guy has enjoyed a few more than you have,
and after he is laying on the ground, finished,
you kick him in the face, between the legs,
then you take his wallet.

You feel like, you didn't ask for him to hassle you,
you just wanted to go home. Maybe next time
he will leave people alone?

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out
there with drinking problems who make things
hard on the rest of us.

But did you have to kick his teeth out of his face?
Did you have to make sure he lost a testicle when
he was on the ground?
Did you have to steal his wallet so he couldn't pay
his rent, and his wife and little child got evicted?

There is a code of conduct for every aspect of life,
even a street fight.
INTERESTING PARALLEL...

Call of a cutting at a local mom and pop neighborhood bar.
Come in the door and there is this 20 something rough looking guy bleeding out on the floor of the bar and the bartender is there with a mop trying to keep the blood localized on the hardwood floor.
GREAT...
So another officer arrives and I tell him to check witnesses I am gonna try to get some kind of statement from the guy swimming in his own blood. I get down on hands and knees so I can hear the gasps from the guy but he isn't quite in condition to say anything. I get back up and I look like the vic, the blood is dripping off my uniform.
anyway,
witness statements,
guy on the floor is a real Adam Henry, always picking on people.
There was a stranger at the bar having a beer. He starts picking on the guy who just wants to drink his beer in peace. Idiot doesn't let up, challenges the guy to fight him.
In disgust strangers leaves his drink unfinished and leaves. Butthead grabs 2 pool balls and goes after him.
30, maybe 40 seconds go by, butthead stumbles back in and collapses and leaks all over the place.
At hospital they rush the guy to surgery where he dies. He was center thrust and aorta was cut then as he was going down he took another shot to the kidney. CLASSIC KNIFE TECHNIQUE.
As for our cutter.. gone without a trace.
We write it up as clear cut self defense as far as we were concerned.

3 days later the cutter shows up WITH his attorney to talk to the detectives.
Prosecutor cleared the guy as SD.
Guy brought pool balls to a knife fight, not cheating at all.
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Old 09-01-2019, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
INTERESTING PARALLEL...

Call of a cutting at a local mom and pop neighborhood bar.
Come in the door and there is this 20 something rough looking guy bleeding out on the floor of the bar and the bartender is there with a mop trying to keep the blood localized on the hardwood floor.
GREAT...
So another officer arrives and I tell him to check witnesses I am gonna try to get some kind of statement from the guy swimming in his own blood. I get down on hands and knees so I can hear the gasps from the guy but he isn't quite in condition to say anything. I get back up and I look like the vic, the blood is dripping off my uniform.
anyway,
witness statements,
guy on the floor is a real Adam Henry, always picking on people.
There was a stranger at the bar having a beer. He starts picking on the guy who just wants to drink his beer in peace. Idiot doesn't let up, challenges the guy to fight him.
In disgust strangers leaves his drink unfinished and leaves. Butthead grabs 2 pool balls and goes after him.
30, maybe 40 seconds go by, butthead stumbles back in and collapses and leaks all over the place.
At hospital they rush the guy to surgery where he dies. He was center thrust and aorta was cut then as he was going down he took another shot to the kidney. CLASSIC KNIFE TECHNIQUE.
As for our cutter.. gone without a trace.
We write it up as clear cut self defense as far as we were concerned.

3 days later the cutter shows up WITH his attorney to talk to the detectives.
Prosecutor cleared the guy as SD.
Guy brought pool balls to a knife fight, not cheating at all.
I agree. In your example no cheating.
In mine, cheating.

Big difference in the examples.

While I do believe in Jesus Christ and what he teaches,
I also agree with Darwin's law, which is shown in
your example.
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Old 09-01-2019, 12:48 PM
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Unless you are in a judged competition with rules, all fighting is dirty.
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Old 09-01-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JDH View Post
Unless you are in a judged competition with rules, all fighting is dirty.
It's the last resort when all else fails and are out of options except one...defending yourself.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
That.

I have fought guys who couldn't fight but talked a big game. And went a bit over the top through fear.

And to see a person on the ground screaming and crying and having everyone look at you like you are some kind of monster isn't very nice. And from my opinion isn't very cool.

So I am not a big fan of fighting to destroy people and I avoid it when I can. Because it really does put scars on your soul.
Ive never been one to pick a fight but didn't really avoid them in my younger days.

However, if forced into a fight, especially now that I'm older, I do go into it looking to destroy that person(s). I don't particularly care what anyone standing by watching thinks. That's my mindset. Hurt the other guy before he hurts you and be SURE they no longer want to fight.

Years ago I got into it with a much bigger man who was strong as hell but didn't really know how to fight. I ended up on top just hammering away and thought he was done. I got up off him and he grabbed my leg, brought me down and ended up stomping the **** out of me. Broken cheekbone, nose wrecked, and lost several teeth. Lucky I wasn't killed.

All because I felt kinda bad for him.

Ive not made that mistake since. Destroy them. Again, I'm not looking for fights, I'm not a billy bad ass, and if given the opportunity will walk away if allowed to do so but force me into it and I'm going to ensure you are no longer a threat to me. By fair means or foul.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Sheriff "Little Bill" Daggett: You just shot an unarmed man!
Bill Munny: Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend.
Same concept. If he didn't want his teeth kicked in, I guess he shouldn't have followed me outside to start a fight. I wouldn't ever take a mans money. Maybe his ID to have his info, but not his money.


There always has to be a consequence to an action. Make sure it's your consequence, not theirs. By theirs, I mean that you allow whatever it is they are doing to continue.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:45 AM
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Most people in the US are so fat that the biggest danger from a fight is a heart attack. Nothing funnier than watching two fat guys swing for thirty seconds and then spend the next five minutes with their hands on their knees as they gasp for air. Or maybe they had been in so many fights that the bones in their hands had morphed into some kind of superhuman smacking machine so they didn't want to risk killing a foe with a single blow, or some such BS.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:09 AM
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Might be true, but watch out, though.

Ask some of the same sorts of people who are responsible for this stuff the same question-- ask them for examples of things that they think is going too far-- and you might be surprised with how many of them have an answer, and how sincere they seem.

You may be sort of right that there's no such thing as dirty fighting anymore, but watch out for those standards that you thought don't apply anymore being applied to you, when you don't expect it, or hypocritically.

It may not even be a matter of a court or anybody "official" agreeing with you or not. All the people who you thought were most important or posed the most danger to you-- courts, employers, friends-- may decide it was totally just and appropriate. But then watch out for the other guy's friends and allies deciding somewhere along the line on their own that it was too much, and that they're going to do something about it.

If you can defeat the badguy, but without giving people a lot of reason to think that they're supposed to get revenge, and without giving them an excuse to see you as a monster, you might be doing a lot better.

An example from history that I think may be great on this:

Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars is a great book. You'd think it was written by a knight of the round table. Cover to cover, the book is nothing but details of war campaigns against the Gauls- the French, Swiss, and Dutch- and the Germans. Throughout, Caesar never abandons diplomacy with the non-Romans, even though he has to show that he's sufficiently tough. He constantly tried to keep communication open, constantly tries to give the opportunity to remain friends, constantly tries to be fair and merciful.

After winning the final, biggest, toughest battle of his campaign against Vercingetorix's Gauls, he punishes them by amputating the left hand of every man who fought against him in the battle. But despite that ability to recognize the point at which it was time to get tough, his other method, his way of giving the enemy a chance to be on friendly peaceful terms with him instead, was always there. He didn't skimp on it at all. Even though he could inflict that kind of a tough, mass punishment, once you've looked over his shoulder throughout the entire war, and been given all the facts he provided you, and read his rationales, you don't want to slur him as a crazy dictator, as an insanely cruel conqueror.

In other words, he was a great general, but a big part of why he was able to do it was because he worked carefully and extensively on diplomacy, too. He was a great general was because he was also a great statesman / diplomat, a great gent. He was thinking about what was going to be said, done, and thought off of the battlefield, and he played that side of it as well. He was thinking of the human side of it, was thinking of the future. It's not about doing that just for the sake of being nice, or as a deception. It's about how you induce your enemies not to fight you.

What does it have to do with what we see on the streets?

You may want to match toughness with toughness. And you might be right. But don't get too simple-minded about it. You don't want to have your arms tied, so to speak, by your fairness. But if people can't constantly see that you're civilized and fair, then it might be hard to get that impression back. They might speak ill of you from then on, and raise their children to believe in it.

Just think of how we think of the badguys. We think of them as totally savage and unfair. And we don't think they could ever lead us and take ultimate responsibility in society. We don't think they could do well at it.

We don't want to leave people thinking that we're hypocrites, and that our justice and our words about decency are a sham. We want people to be able to think back on our behavior, and to decide that it's ok to abandon defiance, and to be at peace with us.

All reminds me of the UFC, too. I have a problem with how a lot of those fights end, with the fighters over-enthusiastically chasing the knockout.

I could kind of understand what some of those fighters rationally must be thinking. Things can change in a split-second. The opponent is a very dangerous man, and maybe no one's 100% perfect at judging when someone else is getting knocked out. You're not psychic, God's not whispering in your ear, and you're not looking at an MRI brain scan display as you're punching the other guy in the head. Not only a lot of money, but your own safety and life are on the line. The world is watching, and maybe people are depending on you. There's national pride, and so on, too.

Then other fighters might be chasing the knockout too enthusiastically just out of being vicious.

Whatever the case, I think what I see disregards how dangerous those blows are too much, and it's way too often. They commonly go way beyond what would be a TKO in boxing. If officials and fighters in boxing can see with a pretty good degree of certainty or probability when a fighter is going unconscious or can't defend himself, why can't they see it in the UFC? After all, the same things are on the line in boxing as are in the UFC.

They may just respond again with all I said above about it being a him-or-me thing, about it being the ref's job to end the fight, and about making sure the dangerous opponent is knocked out.

But if these men all have enough care and judgment to work safely on techniques in practice like chokes and submission holds, why couldn't they have enough judgment to be able to tell when someone's getting knocked out?

Answer: They do. They don't have to treat another human being's head like it's a teddy bear-- like it doesn't have a human brain inside it, and it's ok to punch away at it as hard as you can no matter what-- when they're in a prize fight with him.

At my martial arts school, we never would have thought it was ok to indiscriminately over-do things like that, never would have jumped to that conclusion so quickly. And we practiced very dangerous attacks all the time.

Cops and bouncers exercise a lot of restraint all the time. Boxers and wrestlers do. Why can't the majority of UFC guys?

It's maybe not as bad as these knockout game type street attacks, but it's kind of the same thing. Once another guy is no longer capable of defending himself, the potential danger of permanent injury from those punches is a lot worse. It's kind of like sucker punching him. This isn't a person who invaded your country, or harmed your family, or is about to go around beheading noncombatants or anything--- it's just an arranged, sport fight.
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Old 09-26-2019, 01:59 PM
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Nope.

I got busted up badly for being " nice " and could have been killed. Dude stomped my head and how I didn't end up either dead or a human vegetable is beyond me. This from a fight I was winning.

If people wish to think ill of me for dealing what they consider too much, so be it. I have no control and honestly don't care what others think. Tailoring how I make choices to fit what others think is a no go. I'd rather walk away from a win then get carted to the hispitol.

And just so you know, football players suffer more brain injuries than all other sports combined, including MMA. Boxers suffer more brain injuries than mma fighters as well. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I get what your saying dude but I'll only fight if forced. Push it and I'm walking away, end of story.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
That.

I have fought guys who couldn't fight but talked a big game. And went a bit over the top through fear.

And to see a person on the ground screaming and crying and having everyone look at you like you are some kind of monster isn't very nice. And from my opinion isn't very cool.

So I am not a big fan of fighting to destroy people and I avoid it when I can. Because it really does put scars on your soul.
Why did people think you were a monster when you were on the ground screaming and crying? That wasn't very nice of them
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:12 PM
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I would say the very fact that we use snipers and drones should answer that question.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
That.

I have fought guys who couldn't fight but talked a big game. And went a bit over the top through fear.

And to see a person on the ground screaming and crying and having everyone look at you like you are some kind of monster isn't very nice. And from my opinion isn't very cool.

So I am not a big fan of fighting to destroy people and I avoid it when I can. Because it really does put scars on your soul.
I am too old for that crap anymore. That is why I EDC. Not looking to start anything with anyone. BUT; I EDC for a reason.
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:36 PM
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I USED to beat into the RATS that there was a difference between a fight between regular folks and cops and street folks.
The difference is
as cops WE CAN NEVER AFFORD TO LOSE... no matter what it takes, up to and including shooting someone if they are going to take you.
Not only were we representing THE PEOPLE who pay the salaries, but they also expect that we not lose fights or have our guns taken our cars stolen or anything else that could happen if you lost a fight.
ALSO
IF a cop lost a fight, it may make others think about also fighting a cop instead of going along quietly.
so
in that domain, there was never such a thing as dirty fighting.

And
it was up to the shift big dogs to make the streets safe for the littler dogs. That 5' tall, 100 lb female officer who could barely break an egg walked the street safer because every mouthbreather also knew there were knuckle dragger nastys who would be backing her up if she could get to her radio. A lot of high tension situations resolved themselves when a known big dog arrived to back up a smaller officer. It was just the way of the street.


so
no, never such a thing as dirty fighting ...especially in that world.
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Old 10-01-2019, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truck Vet View Post
Here is in my opinion of one example of "cheating," in a street fight.

You walk out of the bar, and on the way to your car
some guy who you some how slighted challenges you.

This guy has enjoyed a few more than you have,
and after he is laying on the ground, finished,
you kick him in the face, between the legs,
then you take his wallet.

You feel like, you didn't ask for him to hassle you,
you just wanted to go home. Maybe next time
he will leave people alone?

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out
there with drinking problems who make things
hard on the rest of us.

But did you have to kick his teeth out of his face?
Did you have to make sure he lost a testicle when
he was on the ground?
Did you have to steal his wallet so he couldn't pay
his rent, and his wife and little child got evicted?

There is a code of conduct for every aspect of life,
even a street fight.
Sorry but have to disagree. Will do my best to avoid a confrontation but if one must be had I would do my best to make it as painful and memorable as possible so that maybe you wouldn't want another round with me. Haven't had to use it in many, many years but found it seemed to work. But I wouldn't steal his wallet
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:21 PM
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Yes there is such a thing as dirty fighting. We call it winning ! :-)
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Old 10-06-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rlm1966 View Post
Sorry but have to disagree. Will do my best to avoid a confrontation but if one must be had I would do my best to make it as painful and memorable as possible so that maybe you wouldn't want another round with me. Haven't had to use it in many, many years but found it seemed to work. But I wouldn't steal his wallet
I guess the important question is: Who would your actions be
memorable to? To the Jury who puts you in Jail?
Or to God?

Those are my priorities. Doesn't mean I won't make
sure my attacker has plenty of bruises to remember
me by, and he won't get back up and attack me but
beyond that is a foolish risk of my future especially
in today's age of cameras everywhere.
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