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Old 08-15-2019, 10:27 PM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
While I am of the general opinion "more" is better, how much does it influence your training and tactics?

During the summer, I always shift to a smaller, often thinner (read as single stack) micro-compact handgun. The four main ones I've been carrying are the Kahr CM9, Sig P938, Glock 43 and the Sig P365 (not really a single stack, but small and slim).

While most gun-fight statistics reveal only a few rounds used in a gunfight, we also have reports of LEOs ripping through 20-30 rounds in a single engagement (I'll ignore the marksmanship issue for now).

For me, I could have as little as 5 rounds in a J-Frame or 6-7 rounds in a compact .45/9mm, or as many as 15-17 rounds in a sub-compact or full size (double stack) 9mm.

The worse-case defensive scenarios (IMHO) are multiple threats, open (no cover) area engagements, crowded/active shooter shootings, or screwing up and letting someone get their hands on you as a threat; this could also include being injured during or before a gun fight.

While a full size, 15+capacity handgun would give me more on-board ammo capacity and much better range for engagements, I still apply the tactics of using cover, breaking contact to escape, and maintaining shoot and move techniques with a smaller handgun.

With less capacity (we'll cap it at 10 or less), I don't see this changing much, but I would prioritize breaking contact, using cover, and escaping the scene much higher.

Even with the micro-compacts, I always carry a spare magazine (or two) or speedstrip/speed loader. For semi-autos, that extra magazine is integral to training FTF/FTE drills. From a tactics standpoint, that extra magazine may help to break contact after the initial engagement if things aren't settled or there are multiple threats. I continue to train on marksmanship, but few can guarantee their skill in a gun fight once the shooting starts, injuries sustained, adrenalin surging, stressors of the environment, loved one injured, etc. I've mentioned before the "hit probability" during combat and how low it is and while self-defensive engagements are often close-range, I've seen my share of shooters miss at those distances when stressed by time or movement. I want to avoid a gun fight and if forced, I would like to end it as quick as possible while avoiding any holes in my own body; however, having more ammo on board or additional ammo on tap is a big advantage which does influence my tactics and scenario training.

For those that simply carry a Glock 34 with 30 round magazine, more power to ya; I'm just a mortal that has minimized my carry gun size over the years and have adjusted my training to address the smaller capacity choices.

Thoughts?

ROCK6

Watched a Nut'n Fancy video last year where Nut'n was asking guys in a gun store about their EDC. Some talked about carrying pocket guns, and one fellow said that he carried a real gun, a 1911. Nut'n asked where it was and the guy said "Out in my truck." The moral of the story is regardless of size, the best gun is the one you have with you.

I have a full-sized nine and have carried in a city, but nearly always I carry my 9mm Shield--9 in the mag, one in the chamber with a back-up mag of 8. Small, not too heavy, easy to conceal, and pretty comfortable.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:53 PM
Idaho Survivalist Idaho Survivalist is offline
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Depends on the threats you are likely to face. For years back in Argentina I had either a Glock 31 or Gock 17 with me. Given that well armed, very agressive 3 to 5 was what you cold expect in a worst case scenario, less than that just didnt seem right. I'd usually have a S&W Airweight in the pocket as backup loaded wit nyclads +P.
In a safer place where those things simply dont happen, I'd be happy with the 9 rounds of 9mm in my P7. In fact, for something like an active shooter scenario, I'd value more accuaracy than capacity so the P7 would be ideal for that. Having said all this, all people are different and I'm sure someone out there shoots his glock 26 more accurately than my P7, in my hands though I shoot more accurately with the P7 when I focus on it rather than fast, close range shooting.

And it probably varies according to where you live. The biggest town in my county has 3200 people and I go there a few times a year. The biggest town in the county next to mine has 1100 and the one next to that one has 3200. Two hours away has a town with a metropolitan area population of 40,000 and I go there to shop 5 or 6 times a year. Unless there is a civil war or something, I'm not worried a lot about mag capacities, but I suppose my ideas would be a lot different if I live in an urban area.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:09 PM
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I may be a lil off here but less could serve you best, if you have say 16 rounds and the dump hits you in a real world scenario then you may be apt to just start spraying and prayin, when I practiced I either had 6 rounds in my revolvers-or 9 in my 1911’s. So I had to learn to make what shots I did get off count.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:11 AM
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Lots of reasons it's nice to have more rounds. Lots of people like to say they won't have a problem hitting someone center mass, or heck right in the head if they're ever in a gunfight. Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes even center mass hits don't kill or don't kill right away. This guy looks to only have had a 5 shot revolver. 2 of the guys actually died later from gunshots, but they still managed to be a threat.

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Old 08-16-2019, 05:45 PM
NAC/NSW/CAC NAC/NSW/CAC is offline
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But do the number of rounds actually change your Tactics?
Don't you still have to engage one aggressor at a time? Start to out-of-the-fight?

Somehow I don't see myself tossing a few errant rounds in another aggressors direction prior to taking the closest candidate out-of-the-fight just because I have a double stack Mag vice single stack or cylinder.

Now will a double stack Mag assist me in multiple aggressor situations? Heck Yes, but like the man sang: You got to dance with the one you brung. It ain't Tactics that decide if your carrying a Double Stack, it's concealment and weight in the final outcome. JMHO.

Tactically: One at time till they are out-of-the-fight, closest to farthest (shoot your way out) but the bottom line is that you have to accomplish the task regardless of the limitations of the firearm your carrying at the time. Once again, JMHO.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAC/NSW/CAC View Post
But do the number of rounds actually change your Tactics?

Tactically: One at time till they are out-of-the-fight, closest to farthest (shoot your way out) but the bottom line is that you have to accomplish the task regardless of the limitations of the firearm your carrying at the time. Once again, JMHO.
Scenario training is invaluable for this. At times I carry a Sig P938, simply because of size and weight (and sometimes attire). I know if I can't subdue a threat(s) with my first magazine, I have one magazine left (always carry at least one), than my tactics change to breaking contact, not a continued engagement. So, tactically, methods are still the same for the most part, but my tactical decisions will likely be influenced by how much ammo I have in the handgun and spare(s). It would suck to maneuver yourself into a good covered position only to run dry. Even if pinned down, I would rather have more than less capacity.

Statistically, most threats are one or two perps at closer ranges where less than 10 rounds would suffice. Once you start incorporating multiple threats, longer distances, and extended engagement times does capacity really start impacting one's decision making process. I think another consideration is that unless it's determined (suicidal?), multiple active shooters, it's pretty straight forward with eliminating the threat if possible without getting ventilated. Also, I would be extremely hesitant to take the fight to someone armed with a long-gun if I only had a handgun, let alone a low-capacity sub-compact. Circumstances would have to really favor a clear shot with me not being targeted. Most "typical" criminals (even gang bangers) are likely not going to hang around for an extended firefight. If you can drop one and remain covered, it might very well make the others take off or at least eat up enough time for LE to arrive.

If anything, it should make you think about your scenario-based drills, applying what resources you have, the environment, and which tactics are best suited to the situation. Of course, you likely only have seconds to make those decisions...which his why you practice.

ROCK6
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:40 AM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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But do the number of rounds actually change your Tactics? Yes, but there is a caveat to this for an answer...

Military people are taught that certain issues and weapons call for certain types of reactions. For example, a machinegun is used to cover high speed approach areas, like flat land areas and trails, to keep a large group of enemy people from suddenly charging you. A grenade launcher is used to drop that 40 mm grenade into a hole or ground depression area just to liven up any social occasion should the enemy move into that hole or area. A small group of soldiers, held in reserve, can be used as an emergency reaction force to plug gaps in your defensive line or meet an enemy breakthrough in your perimeter head-on. So this training kicks in when former military people switch from high capacity firearms to firearms that have a smaller number of rounds to use.

Think of it as an extension of "situational awareness" or "preplanned emergency drills." Either way will work because both involve forethought or thinking ahead of a possible violent situation with the idea of more effectively using your limited resources. It's sort of like being on a budget or diet in that you only have so many calories or money to use and you can't go over that amount no matter what. In order to make your numbers work you buy or eat what is best for you. Same thing with reduced ammo, you design your tactics so that your shooting comes out best for you because now you're on an ammo diet so to speak and you only have about half the ammo that you normally carry.

The nice thing is that your goal remains pretty much the same: engage with defensive fire and then withdraw away from the bad guy to an area of safety. One thing a lot of people don't understand is that they may NOT be able to leave the building via a back door. You have to keep that in mind so a safe area might be the rear storage area that you defend with your firearm and defeat the bad guy from accessing to kill people. Sadly some people in Japan weren't able to escape being killed because a nutjob set fire to the front unlocked area of a business and the rear area doors were locked so nobody could escape the fast moving fire. As a result a large number of people burned to death. So while you stop a murderer from killing some people, your defensive tactical situations may vary because of so many variables and how limited your ammunition supply is. So, yes, various people will change their tactics based upon how much ammo they carry when they switch firearms because they've been taught to think ahead of situations and how to use different firearms in different ways.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:21 AM
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1. Have one on you
2. Being able to accurately shoot with confidence
3. Biggest caliber #2
4. More
5. Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight

In this order.
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:06 AM
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5. Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight
The last one isn't part of the equation. Sure, in an ideal world, you could choose to always carry a rifle with you when you saunter off to a gun-fight or local festival, but the reality is that 99.999% of citizens will only be packing a CCW-handgun if an active shooter shows up with a long gun. I should have stipulated this isn't an expected SHTF or post-SHTF WROL.

ROCK6
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
The last one isn't part of the equation. Sure, in an ideal world, you could choose to always carry a rifle with you when you saunter off to a gun-fight or local festival, but the reality is that 99.999% of citizens will only be packing a CCW-handgun if an active shooter shows up with a long gun. I should have stipulated this isn't an expected SHTF or post-SHTF WROL.

ROCK6
Then itís better to be accurate above all other.
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:37 AM
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1. Have a plan to defend yourself, sure it may not survive initial contact but it's still better than not having a plan.
2. Have the skill sets and ability to defend yourself, if that requires range time and practice so be it.
3. Have the proper gear to defend yourself with.
4. Come to terms with the fact that after you've done everything right you can still loose.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:52 PM
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I carry my brand new Springfield xds mod 2. and a 45 Kahr for backup.
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Idaho Survivalist View Post
And it probably varies according to where you live. The biggest town in my county has 3200 people and I go there a few times a year. The biggest town in the county next to mine has 1100 and the one next to that one has 3200. Two hours away has a town with a metropolitan area population of 40,000 and I go there to shop 5 or 6 times a year. Unless there is a civil war or something, I'm not worried a lot about mag capacities, but I suppose my ideas would be a lot different if I live in an urban area.
I would concur. Small towns, less population, threats are likely to involve less people.
Playing devils advocate though, can you be certain you will never get caught in a road rage incident involving several armed people, meth cooker or some of those big country family feuds?
The perception I have is that most criminal attacks involving multiple attackers are more likely in bigger cities. Having said that, some of the worst, best organized attacks I know of did happen on farms. I'd deffinitely want lots of ammo in my handgun, better yet, an actual rifle.
It would be very interesting to find some urban vs rural data comparing rounds fired in gunfights. Not sure if anyone ever compiled that though.
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 0002S View Post
5. Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight
If you can, sure, nad by all means keep a carbine in the trunk of your car, but unless you're literally holding it in your hands when it goes down...
Chances are that even when just a few feet away from your car, you're likely to have to fight back immediately using your handgun with no chance to ever get the long arm in the fight. If you can, by all means do so. But I wouldnt count on being able to do so and basing my choice of handgun on that possbility.
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Old 08-25-2019, 03:37 AM
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At home I've got a rifle with a 20 rounder, in town 10 rounds in in a glock
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